Another "Wiring" Demonstration

[D-MAN]

I am posting this for those who have an issue with "shouty" or overly strident or "biting" midrange horns, which I know some definitely have (La Scala's come to mind).

The problem can be controlled to a suprizingly usable degree without a major upgrade. Try it, you'll like it!

Bob, I understand that you were kidding. So was I.

I cannot understand the "critics" inability to believe that wires make a difference - what I imagine "you guys" must be listening to in order to have that opinion and stay with it gives me the willies!

I was thinking about our differing points of view and I think it comes from our respective audio histories. I for one started out (in High school) with horns. Dumped them in the late 80's. Went to the tall-and-skinny things which enticed me with tube gear AND a soundstage (for the first time!). The horns I had (Klones) did not produce anything resembling a soundstage as I now know it. But the tall-and-skinny things didn't really do bass. So I began to miss "the good old days" when I had bass a-plenty. Went back to folded horns EXCEPT was not willing to except the traditional horn "no soundstage". Been after it every since! For those who have no particular desire for a so-called soundstage, I can see why they don't care about wiring - it doesn't matter if one uses clothes hangers or zip cord.

So I suppose that it comes down to our listening tastes, and therefore, the difference of opinion on the value of wiring.

DM

[JJkizak]

I love this coat hanger thing. I'm still laughing. They make them in Mexico you know. Maybe we could get some custom made ones in different colors.

JJK

[DrWho]

I am posting this for those who have an issue with

"shouty" or overly strident or "biting" midrange horns, which I know

some definitely have (La Scala's come to mind).

Gosh, I feel like I'm always arguing with you Dana...I guess that's

what makes the conversations go round.I just wanted to say that I think

you're a cool guy (so sorry if I'm annoying all the time).

As far as biting midranges go....I know that there are measurements

that point to the driver/horn interaction as being the major cause.

Resonances, reflections, and uneven off-axis response to name a few

variables to consider. Going from the old metal horns to the newer

plastic models dramatically cleaned that up and I present it as a

working example of the biting sound being reduced by a change in the

horn. And then today we have all sorts of new horn types that try to

minimize these issues...like cd horns, tractrix flares, etc etc...all

of which are introducing new flaws and correcting for others. (for

example, cd horns require an eq which introduces its own issues as well

as the extra power compression in exchange for a more uniform on and

off axis response). I'm sure we could go on for hours with all the

limitations that horns bring to the table - and that's not to say that

horns sound bad either. I'm just trying to point out that there are

much much larger variables to concern ourselves with. And companies

with horn loaded products wouldn't be researching the acoustics of

horns if they already knew how to make the perfect horn []

When someone starts spending hundreds of dollars on cables, the first

thing I do is look at that person's room. I know in the past you've

mentioned a few times that you don't have a perfectly symmetrical

layout and that one of your speakers has more bass than the other (and

you compensated your power meters on your amp to compensate for the

difference in gain going to each speaker to balance the sound out).

Don't you think that has a much larger effect on the sound quality than

the difference you percieve with a wire change? On one hand I see

+-10dB and +- 1s with room acoustics and I see +-0.01dB and +- 1ns with

the wire change.

[BEC]

I am still enjoying listening to the coat hangers. Think I may try a couple of new types of wire. My brother has old (NOS actually) USA made barb wire. Most of the current stuff is from China. I think I will give some of that a listen. It is zinc coated and I expect a galvanizing experience.

Bob Crites

[D-MAN]

Yes, that is certainly an important point. I DO have a very crappy room made worse by the HT setup (and having to sit back far enough from the screen). We all make compromises for our entertainment!

My hope is that if I can make these speakers "adjustable" enough to sound good in my horrible room/situation, then they can be adjusted for virtually any room they might conceivably end up in, hopefully quite a good sales point, (although it might lead to trouble in the customer-support arena). However, I have considered that I am possibly at the point where I am most likely going to be making adjustments for the effects of the room, rather than the speakers per se.

I won't actually have a handle on everything until I have a second pair setup exactly like the prototypes and can get them somewhere "else" and have them officially tested to know for sure.

I am not recommending that everyone invest in fancy cables. I probably have less than $300 total (including interconnects) invested at this point, and don't foresee the need for much more at all - that is not very high on my list.

What I was concerned about was having a horn/BMS driver combination that I could not adjust with the ESN autoformer and it certainly was not viable the way it was. However, a simple change of wiring worked wonders in this particular case, which was far, far less expensive than buying new horns, drivers or crossovers. I wanted to stay with the BMS driver because it has attributes that are definitely worth keeping, but its sensitivity is much higher than any driver I had experience with - add to that the new woofer, and I had a matching problem that I could not quite get resolved to my satisfaction.

So for those who have the same type of issue with a "blatty" midrange driver/horn combination, the connecting wires to the driver does alter the response dramatically enough to go from a nasty "bite" to "realistic". This was undoubtably due to peaking at certain frequencies (I would guess about 9K) that became overly harsh and intrusive. The silver wire reduced the peaking and added an overall clarity and a "liquidity" that was previously not audible.

Where I find it interesting is that the 500Hz range picked up quite a bit. I know the relative frequencies from playing with the pre-amp EQ (McIntosh C40) and the effect that had - I know I had a pronounced dip at 500 and a peak at 9-10K. These apparently smoothed out enough so they are no longer glaring as abnormalities.

The channel imbalance previously noted is also lessened, which indicates to me that the frequency balance of the response has dramatically changed. Sort of makes me wonder what I was previously listening to...

All told, it was a good fix for not a whole lot of money.

DM

[DrWho]

Which BMS driver are you playing with? I was thinking about using one of the 1" drivers in a 2-way configuration...

[D-MAN]

Bob, don't use any of that Chinese barb-wire - it has various ferrous inclusions in it due to poor quality control during the smelting process that eventually become magnetized from current flow and that alters the sound, of course.

Cows don't care about the various inclusions in barbed wire, but your ears SHOULD! Unless they are full of BULL, that is.[]

DM

[D-MAN]

I've got the 4590 2" throat variety in a cheap horn.

I have no experience with the 1".

Here is the response of the 4590 in the P-Audio horn (note the peaks as I mentioned above)... This is from Al K, who did the test, and supplied the curve attached below. This is before the wire change. I do not have a curve for that.

DM

[DizRotus]

. . . USA made barb wire. . . . It is zinc coated and I expect a galvanizing experience. Bob Crites

Dana likes silver, so why not try the Lone Ranger's business cards (silver bullets); that would be some high caliber speaker wire.

[sfogg]

"This is before the wire change. I do not have a curve for that."

Sure you do......

Shawn

[D-MAN]

Not fair! Not fair!

However - I am POSITIVE that there would be a notable difference in that the previously unavoidable "glare" and "bite" from the midrange is no longer present AFTER the wire change and THAT would HAVE to show up on any new response curve!

DM

[sfogg]

"I am POSITIVE that there would be a notable difference in that the

previously unavoidable "glare" and "bite" from the midrange is no

longer present AFTER the wire change and THAT would HAVE to show up on

any new response curve!"

Then measure it.

I don't want to hear about not having instruments. Buy some. The

$1,000,000 from Randi would go a long long way in instrumentation.

For a guy hoping to start selling horns I would think having some manor

of confirming/checking your work would be very important. Consider,

just for a moment, that what some of us are telling you about wires is

true... they make no audible differences. That what you think you are

hearing exists solely in your imagination. If that were the case it

means the lousy sound you were trying to correct *is still there*. And

unfortunately for you when you sell the speakers the new owner won't

hear what was in your imagination... they just might hear the lousy

sound you were trying to rectify but never did.

Shawn

P.S. You are forgetting the True Wire Believers Justification the First to no meaningful measurable differences in wires....

1) Though the instruments of the devil show nothing... the inner ear hear all....

[D-MAN]

Even if it tests perfectly flat, it won't be when it's in any room.

As far as wires, that is a pointless argument. You are assuming (wrongly) that wires have no influence on the signal. That is a physical impossibility - for all wires would be equal in performance regardless of size, metalugy, and structure, and every rational person knows that it is not the case.

I will have the speakers tested by professionals when the time comes. Nor am I going to buy test gear now just to make the pendantists here happy.

I'd almost do it to just get you to stop arguing with me, though - I'm tempted, but not quite rich enough yet! After all, I just bought silver wires![]

DM

P.S. I only intended to sell the plans. I still don't see how its economically advisable to seriously manufacture and sell large corner horns - just ask Klipsch! Also, the cabinet is just the first of many problems that need to be addressed. The complete package is a very complicated thing to put together, and since I work for a living, I cannot devote myself to this any more than I already am, so it will all take more time to accomplish.

Should I lose my current job, it may happen on a much faster timeline, though!

[steamer]

some more food for thought or rather another post.

http://www.emmlabs.com/reviews/freezing.htm

Greg

[sfogg]

" Even if it tests perfectly flat, it won't be when it's in any room."

I am well aware of the effects a room has on playback. Unlike you I

have spent much time, effort and money working on that aspect of my

system which has as much, and some say more, effect on playback as the

speakers themselves. To futz around with wires while ignoring the room

is lunacy IMO.

You claimed a bit of wire had the effect of the " frequency balance of the response has dramatically changed."

A dramatic frequency response change is *easy* to measure. So measure it. Back up your claim.

" You are assuming (wrongly)"

All the scientific *listening* tests back up my position... not yours.

All the bluster in the world isn't going to change that, like it or

not.

Wanna change my position?

Pass a properly conducted double blind listening test. Do that and I'll

believe you hear a difference between wires no matter what the

instruments say. Pass that test and you can walk away a rich man.

" - I'm tempted, but not quite rich enough yet!"

So pass Randi's million dollar challenge and you would have no problem

spending a couple of hundred on measurement equipment you would need to

measure FR.

After all... if it is that simple to hear the difference between a

couple of pieces of wire blindfolded one would be a complete and utter

fool *not* to take the challenge. Surely you could manage a couple of

hours of your time to walk away with a million dollars?

Odd how not a soul has been able to walk away with that money yet though... don't you think?

Shawn

[DrWho]

And you can get a rather good measuring setup for under $100 too....$50

behringer mic and $40 mixing console (for the mic preamp and phantom

power). Get yourself some free RTA and waterfall software on the net

and you're home free...

Btw, I see that those BMS drivers have a really good response up

high...aren't you also using a jbl tweeter though? What's the

difference between the two?

[Deang]

"I cannot understand the "critics" inability to believe that wires make a difference - what I imagine "you guys" must be listening to in order to have that opinion and stay with it gives me the willies!"

Uh, yeah. I often think the same thing -- except with caps.

Silver definitely sounds different than copper.

[JJkizak]

I still believe it is a characteristic impedance thing reacting with all of the variables from the amp , crossover, tweeter, squawker, and woofer. If someone could put this on a five trace scope with a variable rate audio sweep so it would plot the resultant freq response and impedance with different setups for different wires, different crossover components, different drivers, and provide a wealth of information on just what effect these changes have on the results.

JJK

[sfogg]

" And you can get a rather good measuring setup for under $100 too....$50 behringer mic and $40 mixing console (for the mic preamp and phantom power). Get yourself some free RTA and waterfall software on the net and you're home free..."

And if you measure FR electrically (what is feeding the driver basically) instead of acoustically it can be even cheaper. Literally could be free if he has a decent sound card in his computer. You tap into the feed to the driver and put it into the computer. Then using the freeware out there you could measure it. If you are working with higher voltages (about about 2v) then you would need a couple of bucks worth of resistors to make a circuit for measuring.

Shawn

[ZAKO]

BEC.....You,v got your coat hangers hooked up the wrong way...Dont you know they are directional?? I use plastic coat hangers myself they are quieter and less fatiging. This thing about hearing a difference in wire has been going on for 60 yrs ...Difference is not the argument...accuracy in reproduction cannot be accomplished without good circuit design & you need all kinds of wire to build an amp. the circuits in your components (wires) are more criticle than the wire between amps & speakers.