What is the best tweeter?

[DimaK]

how the 2404 matches with the K55?

i think Carl nailed it right here.

so, does anybody checked such a combination?

[Croc]

though if you believe in the psycho-acoustic benefits an extended frequency range that supre-tweeters brings you how about keeping the stock Klipsch tweeter and supplament it with one of these fostex super tweeters up top crossed over @ say15KHz or so with a 1st order network (to ensure flat phase between the two tweeters)...?

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?pid=349

i also have in my LS old alnico tweeter and type A xover.

i've tried this one supertweeter:

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=7600533.10613&pid=342

it definitely added more details on top.

i thought it was not very pronounced - now i see why - 98.5DB only.

i would continue to use it but the bad thing is that connecting it in parallel to the LS got bass to loose it punch.

i guess it's becuase xover network became very diffrent when this driver is connected.

or the impedance halves and the whole systme require much more current................

but it definitely showed me that my tweeter looses a lot information on top.

[Q-Man]

I may have waited too long to buy three more 2404H tweeters. I just ordered them from Performance Audio for $265.00 each. The order came back saying that they would ship the 2404H-1 tweeters. I canceled the order. Then Performance Audio sent me an email saying that the 2404H-1 tweeters are the same as the 2404H tweeters. Before I believe that I have to find a spec. sheet on the new 2404H-1 tweeters.

[sunnysal]

The Beyma also doesn't do very well crossed over much lower than 9kHz using a first order filter -- where it definitely sounds dry and lifeless. The Beyma is best served with tweeter filters using steeper slopes or crossed higher.

IIRC you can cross over the 2404H lower than the beyma, like 4.5k, that is an advantage in my book over the beyma. tony

[PrestonTom]

I have been watching these discussions go back & forth. I am confused.

I have K-Horns with k77M tweeters (not alnico), and I don't think they are all that bad. In fact, I think they are fine. I will admit that I have not A/Bed them against the others. My surprise comes from a couple of facts and a belief.

First, the tweeters are not producing all that much energy (the mid range is). There is not all that much music up there (this is a relative statement). And unless you are listneing to a recording that: 1) is not rolling off the highs, 2) amplified by electronics that are not low passing the signal, and 3) listening on axis with the face of the cabinet, then there may not be that much HF energy to begin with.

My belief is that I suspect that modifying the cross over to the tweeter will have much larger effect on the HF range, rather than swapping out the tweeter itself.

This is not meant to be argumentative, but I don't understand why folks are so down on the K77s

Good Luck,

-Tom

[sfogg]

Tony,

"

IIRC you can cross over the 2404H lower than the beyma, like 4.5k, that is an advantage in my book over the beyma. "

The 2404 sounds better crossed higher, not lower. 8kHz is about right

for them. Below that point their response isn't as flat and the

dispersion isn't as controlled.

Shawn

[sunnysal]

Shawn, I played a bit with crossover points and they sounded ok to me crossed low, I based myself on JBL PRO literature which states a +/- 3db of 4-19 for the 2404H a recommended crossover point of "3khz or higher" they are pretty conservative about this kinda stuff. I copied a graph or two also but forgot how to post them...

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2404.pdf

tony

[sfogg]

Tony,

Sure, they can go lower. They are just smoother and sound better crossed higher.

Here is one of Al's measurements on a JBL I sent him.

Peaks in the 4-6kHz range are what imparts the 'pa' hard sound to some speakers. Crossing the 2404 higher avoids that.

Of course one needs a mid-range that can handle the higher crossover point too. A K55 isn't going to cut it.

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

Tom:

"I have K-Horns with k77M tweeters (not alnico), and I don't think they are all that bad. In fact, I think they are fine."

I really think you're right, the K77Ms are not bad tweeters, and I also mentioned I had really been happy with mine. Our Klipschorns had the alnico version in them when first purchased, and I just did not care for them. It's not that I was in search of 'detail' as and end in itself, or anything, but rather a better balance overall. The K77Ms honed the edge on HF information that, to me, sounds more like live music. And so I've been fine with them for the past couple of years.

Dee generously loaned me a pair of the new ones, along with a pair of Bob C's A networks + the coil in series with the Squawker, and I found them to reproduce fast percussion sounds more realistically. Meaning, that they sounded more like brushes on snare or riveted cymbals, strings being plucked, sticks on ride cymbals, that sort of stuff. I think the crossover modification is excellent, and the overall upper frequency response seemed really balanced.

So. I have sent the new tweeters back to their roosting place, and have reinstalled the K-77Ms and my own type A networks. I've liked them, and I know I will again. I'm trying to stay away from the word 'smooth' because those sorts of terms are hard to pin down, but maybe it works here......

Erik

[sunnysal]

I see what you mean shawn. I have my original mid in there so I do not have the option to cross over that high and it really does sound fine to me so far, at least it sounds better, to me, the the stock klipsch tweeter. the thing does pretty well off access, I didn´t post vertical chart since it is almost identical to the horizontal chart. regards, tony

[3dzapper]

Shawn, It looks like those plots were crossed over at 6K (ES5800?). Al K?

If so, the results below the xover point are moot.

Do you still have my autoformers?

Rick

[sfogg]

Rick,

" It looks like those plots were crossed over at 6K (ES5800?). Al K?"

I'd be suprised if they were run in the ES5800. There is no appreciable rolloff at 5800, they both don't really start rolling off till 4k or below. I thought they were run full range at low level but Al should confirm that.

"If so, the results below the xover point are moot."

How so? If the driver was being crossed over during the tests the info below the crossover point is even more critical to know.

Look at the JBL... if that thing really had an ES5800 on it that would mean if you crossed it at 6k first order that peak at around 4200 would be roughly 20dB higher since the ES5800 is electrically down around 25dB at that point. A first order crossover would be down 2-3dB at 4200.

If those were run full range that peak at 4200 with a first order crossover @6kHz would skew the resulting acoutic crossover such that the crossover point wasn't as easily defined. The tweeter would still be relatively flat to 4200hz as would the squawker. Acostically the two could sum and you would end up with a peak around that point... even though electrically the tweeter is crossed higher.

It isn't the electrical crossover that is important... but the resulting acoustic crossover that is the combination of the drivers response itself with the crossover response on top of that that is key.

"Do you still have my autoformers?"

Yup. Do you want me to mail them to you or pick them up or whatever?

Shawn

[Deang]

"It isn't the electrical crossover that is important... but the resulting acoustic crossover that is the combination of the drivers response itself with the crossover response on top of that that is key."

...and the horn, don't forget about the horn.

[sfogg]

Dean,

"...and the horn, don't forget about the horn.:)"

Yup, the horn is part of the acoustic crossover too.

Shawn