Respect

[pauln]

I also like this thread and I have to side with Craig on this one.

It may be true that anyone can be trained to solder in the same way that anyone might be trained to play a musical instrument. What struck me is that in the process of working on an amp Craig recognised errors in the circuit. This is like a real mucisian that doesn't just do the mechanical things to get sound out of the instrument, but actually hears whats going on and will know if someone plays a wrong note and compensate for it. I respect that because it indicates the artistry that comes with doing something for a long time that can not be trained.

Pauln

[NOSValves]

I don't want to mess with Rick's (3dzapper) new thread (titled "No Respect") but it seems he is doing a great job on his project. Congratulations Rick!

I'm a bit confused though. NOSValves states in 3dzapper's new thread "Hey but anyone can do it ask Erik [].................................. "

Erik is in the camp that anyone with some practice and patience can learn to solder and work on a piece of electronics. Craig disagrees. Seems to me that Rick's success would be a vote in Eriks favor not Craig's. We would need to see posts of unsucessfull projects to support Craig's view [].........................

Z4,

For having lurked around here for years you sure do not register each members history and what they have accomplished. First off Rick has some type of College degree in electronics, Second I helped Rick through his very first vintage rebuild about 4 years ago and he has done many project since.

I do not think that JUST ANYONE CAN OR SHOULD WORK ON ELECTRONICS. Can people learn absolutely!!! If someone is willing to learn and has the basic ability yes.

But I work on vintage gear all the time I have witnessed what happens to gear when people that have no clue what they are doing and it's not pretty. Just for starters there is a thread that was posted today about someone new to tubes in this forum raving about an amp I just repaired. This very same amp was a complete disappointment to him when he first received it. Yup..you guessed it, rebuilt by a DIY and one heck of a nice guy to boot. But he just did not have the true ability to rebuild it properly. Now the amp works perfectly.

Yes people can learn no denying that but many people are just not cut out for certain things. I would make one horrible ballroom dancer for instance. Anyone that dismisses natural talent is just plain stupid what about musicians can anyone do that also? Should we all be astronauts? Heck I think all centers for football team should be guys that are 4 foot tall from now on because they can learn to withstand the pain!!

Go play the baiting game with someone else you simply do not have the natural talent for it.

Craig

[3dzapper]

Z4, I have an education in electronics, had an FCC First Class Radiotelephone License and was a broadcast engineer until I had a heart attack on the job at 27. Thereafter i was pretty much blackballed from the industry as "the guy who had the heart attack" and was forced to sell my labor in another field.

With proper training and some caution, yes anyone can do it. It takes a while to learn on a steep curve though. I am still learning even now. One must also be prepared for the failures as well as the successes.

[NOSValves]

Here another nice little story for you!!

I grew up with 7 bothers and sisters. We all grew up in the same environment, same parents and so on. My oldest brother and myself are the handy fix anything type. We just mesh with how things work. My two younger brothers have trouble just changing a tire on an automobile. My older sister has helped me rebuild the motor in my former drag racing car!

Some people are just plain horrible at math. Can they be taught it absolutely! But should they be a CPA I seriously don't think so..... Look at me I surely should not be a college English professor[]

Craig

[Audio Flynn]

I also like this thread and I have to side with Craig on this one.

It may be true that anyone can be trained to

solder in the same way that anyone might be trained to play a musical

instrument. What struck me is that in the process of working on an amp

Craig recognised errors in the circuit. This is like a real mucisian

that doesn't just do the mechanical things to get sound out of the

instrument, but actually hears whats going on and will know if someone

plays a wrong note and compensate for it. I respect that because it

indicates the artistry that comes with doing something for a long time

that can not be trained.

Pauln

excellent analogy

I can set up a turntable, tweak a DAC or CD player, compare hardware

and software, tune a room via speaker placment and other audio stuff.

Speaker cabinet maker perhaps. If I did "sling solder" that is all I

ever would be. I prefer to let the gifted techicians do their work; I

will never be gifted at circuit optimization. I even avoid rolling

tubes; maybe once or twice a year. No reason for me to be so pompous to

get away from the gifted technicians intent without a completely

thought out objective and supporting plan.

[Audio Flynn]

Here another nice little story for you!!

I grew up with 7 bothers and sisters. We all grew up in the

same environment, same parents and so on. My oldest brother and myself

are the handy fix anything type. We just mesh with how things work. My

two younger brothers have trouble just changing a tire on an

automobile. My older sister has helped me rebuild the motor in my

former drag racing car!

Some people are just plain horrible at math. Can

they be taught it absolutely! But should they be a CPA I seriously

don't think so..... Look at me I surely should not be a college English

professor[]

Craig

Craig;

A CPAs grasp of math is about as limited as your grasp of the written English language.

Engineers Rule![]

[3dzapper]

"Engineers Rule![]"

[Parrot]

I rebuilt a EICO HF87 last night. This is a kit power amplifier. I found no less then 4 blatant wiring errors inside that were obviously part of the original build. This amp has been floating around from owner to owner for some time running way out of specification. There were many signs of someone trying to fix the poor performance. This would be a absolute case of people that should not pickup a soldering iron. So I would imagine this amp left a few people with a poor impression of the HF87 or possibly tubes amps in general. But really with all I have seen on the internet it probably received some glowing review!

So the person who built the Eico made a mistake. Learning anything new takes some time to get it right -- just as you, Craig (yeah YOU!) have made mistakes in the past and might not have caught them. So have I. That doesn't mean someone should stop there, anymore than someone should give up on cheese omelettes just because they overbeat the eggs the first time around and turned out a dubious piece of floppy yellow rubber.If someone really wants to learn, that person can learn. If they don't, it doesn't really matter.

The two sides of this debate are clear. To Erik it is okay if someone has made mistakes on wiring an amp, and that amp is sold repeatedly to other people, because, Hey! man, ya gotta start somewhere!

To Craig, though, it's a little more consequential than frying eggs. And I once purchased an EICO HF-81 that was miswired by the kit builder so badly that the seller sold it to me as a mono amp. Craig figured it out promptly and made it stereo for the first time in the 40+ years it had been in existence. I really don't care if the builder gained self-esteem by trying to build an electronics kit. The important thing is whether the amp was built correctly, not whether the builder felt good or bad about his touchy-feely experience.

[Audio Flynn]

The cost of frying eggs as an experiment is much cheaper than the price

of frying transformers when an amp is running out of spec for too long

of a time period.

[Erik Mandaville]

"To Craig, though, it's a little more consequential than frying eggs."

That people have certain inclinations or natural talents for various sorts of things -- visual art, music, mechanics, cooking, whatever -- is really very obvious. What some of you seem to be skipping over, however, is the fact that people are capable of learning something that is entirely new and different; and making mistakes is an inherent, natural, and EXPECTED part of that process. Neither NOS(vacuum tube)VALVES nor I came into this world with an understanding of any of it. This is also blatantly obvious.

The case of the problematic Eico is coincidental. People make all sorts of mistakes and accidents that unintentionally get passed on to others. Craig has made mistakes, I have made mistakes, we all have. However, that doesn't mean that we should completely avoid trying again. That someone made an error in wiring the Eico mentioned above does not automatically mean that the same person should altogether avoid electronics work. Guess what: I have worked on factory-built amplifiers where minor mistakes were made. I'll say it again: I HAVE WORKED ON FACTORY-BUILT AMPLIFIERS WHERE MINOR MISTAKES WERE MADE. I also once fixed a very large WWII era radio that my dad could not repair. He (my pop) is an extremely capable and experienced technician, too. The difference was that his involvement with the problem was far more complex in terms of troubleshooting. I looked inside the thing for about an hour, and found the cause: a resistor that hadn't been soldered on one end. Some of you may have seen the insides of receivers like that and understand what amazing pieces of equipment they are. The person who built the radio in the 1940s missed a connection that should have been soldered.

Professional race car drivers also sometimes crash; pro golfers will miss the put; Lance Armstrong or Jan Ulrich will crash their bicycles; Bill Bruford will drop or break a drumstick; and so on and so on and so on. There were times in the past where although I had wired something correctly, I found in 'proof reading' and double-checking my work that I had crimped but forgot to solder a connection. Craig has done the same. What can sometimes happen, too, is that even in checking over one's work, the same error can be missed. Writing is a good example of that, as well. I have published articles and found errors in spelling or grammar that were also missed by editors and those who reviewed the manuscript -- professional editors!

If some of you listen to NPR, they will openly disclose and correct errors in information that had been previously passed on to listeners. If this is a reason to never listen to NPR again, than the loss is not NPR's but the person making the decision to turn the dial to another station.

If someone is interested enough in learning something new to accept failure as a natural part of the process, the chances of gaining proficiency and skill are very good.

Your turn,

Erik

[Daddy Dee]

"Engineers Rule![]"

Rick,

You really need a matching pocket protector to go with the slide rule holster!

That is a regular antique!

[Erik Mandaville]

We are playing tennis, and it's once again my serve. Ready!?

This has to do with an amplifier I built last year. When finished, I always double and triple-check my work, as well as do basic resistance checks before applying power. As far as I could tell, everything looked right, and all power supply connections and color coding of the power transformer leads were exactly as shown.

So. Power switch on: instant shutdown. Hmmm. Check fuse: Blown. Carefully recheck wiring. All okay. New fuse installed. Power on: instant shutdown. Scratch head. What is going on here!? Recheck all wiring. From what I could tell, exactly right? Wait! is that B+ going to ground?! Nope, but it looked like it just for a second. (tons of wiring in this thing). Check all tubes, and everything else again, all is okay. Did I buy the wrong fuse (done that before because the stocking clerk in the store put the wrong fuses in the bin -- hmmm....someone made a mistake. Career change in order.

Further research needed. Know what the problem was? There was a factory error in the color coding of the power transformer secondaries. I had wired the power supply EXACTLY is indicated, but on investigating this further was told that I had receieved a transformer from a batch where high voltage was shown going straight to ground. The color coding on this thing was unlike any power transformer I have seen, and I normally don't need a schematic for basic PSU wiring.

How about this other instance: I built a stereo amplifier several years ago where the schematic indicated the plate supply for the output stage was in common with the grid of the input -- in this case a 12AX7. I looked at the diagram, quietly saying to myself, "What the fying pan is this!?" Totally wrong. I find the phone number for the company, and give them a call. "We are very sorry sir," they say. "That was a glitch in the program we use to draw our schmetics. The plate supply should not go to the grid of the first stage."

Know what? The wiring on the Eico may have been a mistake that happened when the construction manual for the kit was written.

We are playing tennis, and the ball I just served into your court went by so fast you didn't even see it. You might even be a pro tennis player.

Erik

[NOSValves]

Erik,

Go stand in the corner for an hour.

[Clarence]

Finally something humorous comes outta this guy. You must be up to, like, 2 funny posts a month!

[]

[meagain]

Hubby & I are struggling with a plumbing repair today. In between the "we're screwed" comments we exchange.... I'm getting great enjoyment out of this thread and just wanted to say "thanks". []

[3dzapper]

Hubby & I are struggling with a plumbing repair today. In between the "we're screwed" comments we exchange.... I'm getting great enjoyment out of this thread and just wanted to say "thanks". []

Lisa, What are you and Hubby doing when you get through with your plumbing job?

The past two weekends a local plumber has stood us up on installing a tankless water heater. "Wifey" took away my plumbing license after a few botched projects[:'(] years ago. I need to hire someone.[]

Rick

[meagain]

I have the mother of all plumbing issues here! Hubby jumped the gun to do this simple tub drip repair which should have entailed no more than a buck worth of washers - but he broke the post and while he was getting an entire new mechanism, I had to drill & chisel the darned thing out. For at least an hour. That's how bad it was. All that had to be done was line up the post in the right directions and give a tug. He tugged but didn't do the lining up part. LOL Just when he broke it, I found the answer for this brand online & printed it out!

He approaches things over-analytically and sees the trees, not the forest. Very 'Spockish'. I 'feel' it and use basic common sense. I'm the one who ends up saving the day 90% of the time and have to micromanage the situation else it goes South.

We had a freek show of a sewer backup and now find we need to dig a 4' hole the size of a grave right smack dab in the middle of my shade/woodland garden for a sewer cleanout. AND rip up our concrete front porch to fix a skewed sewer section. And on top of all this..... wise guy silly man Craig wants me to haul out my khorns (to 'somewhere') and move in LaScalas! MEN!~!!

I'll take your water heater problem!!!!

[3dzapper]

Lisa, Was this movie about you and Hubby?

[NOSValves]

And on top of all this..... wise guy silly man Craig wants me to haul out my khorns (to 'somewhere') and move in LaScalas! MEN!~!!

I'll take your water heater problem!!!!

Well if you don't want fix the problem quit asking me for a solution[]

[meagain]

Zap - Yes, and this too.