Peach vs Welborne Reveille shootout!

[Cut-Throat]

DoubleJ was kind enough to drive down to Minneapolis with his Peach last weekend. Since his system was in 'storage' for awhile, until he gets his amps completed, he let me hang on to the Peach for a little while. - Thanks a bunch Jon! I have switching between the two Pre-amps the last few days and can finally make some comments.I have a Factory Built Welborne Reveille ($2K) that takes 2 - 6sn7s that I was comparing the Peach to. Mostly listen to Jazz, Female vocals like Diana Krall and some Sax stuff like Art Pepper and Coltrane.

First off, I want to say neither pre-amp 'blows' the other away. Both are very excellent pre-amps and pleasing to listen to.

As far as differences go, the most noticeable one was the Peach was a little noiser at idle than the Welborne. I was using DRD45 set amps, which are extremely quiet for SET amps. I could hear a slight hum from both speakers with the Peach between songs from my listening position about 12 feet away. Hum did not increase with Volume increase.

The only other difference that I detected was that the Peach was a little on the 'warm' side of things and the Reveille seemed to be a little brighter and had a bit more detail. I had to play the same CDs for the last 4 days back and forth to make sure what I was hearing.

DoubleJ was here on Sunday and we flipped back and forth between the pre-amps, just a couple of times and I think he heard the same 'warmth' thing that I heard with the Peach. (even though he said he hated the word 'warm').

Jon - please chime in here with any comments that you have. - I think you did hear a difference and were trying to describe it on Sunday.

Anyway for me - Both pre-amps are excellent tube line stages and I could be happy with either one. The good thing for me is that the Welborne came with schematics and I can work on it myself if need be. So the Welborne is staying in my System. My previous tube pre-amp was a Van Alstine T7, and it was just as good as the Welborne, but I chose the Welborne because I could work on it myself.

[Cut-Throat]

Mark,

Yes, I flipped back and forth from the lo to the Hi. - I did not detect much, if any difference between the 2 positions. But I seemed to think the Lo sounded a smidgen better. But I don't trust my ears on this one.

JJ told me that the Hi postion was if you had interconnects longer than 10-15 feet. I have 15 ft ones, so that is where I started. But a couple days ago I started experimenting and it seemed like the Lo position sounded a bit more transparent.

What are these swtiches for exactly?

[Daddy Dee]

Kevin,

Nice review. Thanks for going to the work of comparing these preamps.

[NOSValves]

Mark,

Yes, I flipped back and forth from the lo to the Hi. - I did not detect much, if any difference between the 2 positions. But I seemed to think the Lo sounded a smidgen better. But I don't trust my ears on this one.

JJ told me that the Hi postion was if you had interconnects longer than 10-15 feet. I have 15 ft ones, so that is where I started. But a couple days ago I started experimenting and it seemed like the Lo position sounded a bit more transparent.

What are these swtiches for exactly?

Cut throat,

Nice write up.

On the low Z/Hi JJ has it backwards. The Low Z is for longer IC runs. I'm surprised you couldn't hear a noticeable difference I've heard the opposite a good number of times. I bet the noise is a questionable 6DJ8 great sounding tube but you do have to shuffle through many to find a dead silent one.

Craig

.

[DoubleJ]

Kevin:

I believe that Hi was for shorter connects and Lo was for longer.

If I remember correctly, It was set at Lo for our audition.

I will chime in later tonight on my thoughts.

JJ

[Cut-Throat]

JJ,

You're probably correct, and I was not sure where we had it set. But I did fool with it this week and discovered by ear that I preferred the Low position, very slightly.

[dubai2000]

Kevin,

thanks for sharing your listening impressions. I seem to recall that Erik also compared one of Mark's preamps to the Transcendent Sound GG - and had positive things to say about both contenders as well. Good to know that there are quite a number of options out there.

Wolfram

[DoubleJ]

Mark may shed some light on the tube compliment, but I do know he put in a 6922 in the V1 position for me.

JJ

[Erik Mandaville]

Kevin:

The Peach was as quiet as the Grounded Grid from Transcendent Sound, and the latter had been without a doubt the most quiet vacuum tube preamp we've had here.

As always, the hum could have been the result of a number of different things, but the Peach was truly very, very quiet and had what I thought to be superb FR.

My preamp now is a DC-1 digital processor from Lexicon.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

And PS: The GG kit is really well put together if you want a great DIY project, Kevin. Grounded Grid circuits have some history behind them in RF applications, and it works really well for Audio.

Both are really nice stereo tube amps, the Peach is vacuum tube rectified, but the GG is not. I don't automatically accept tube rectification as superior (I used to though, about 10 years ago), since there are other important factors. However, it's hard to find the options the Peach has at its price point, unless one builds completely from scratch. Yet, again, the GG is an awesome value in terms of performance and cost; and one get the benefit of some hands-on work and pride in the same.

Erik

[thewolf]

Mark,

Stupid question coming at you......What cables are you refering to (ie. 10ft & up to ~75ft)?

Gary

[NOSValves]

Not a stupid question at all. I mean the RCA cables from preamp to power amp. In the Low Z mode, the Peach will drive very long cables with no detriment to the sound. In my house, I use 25 foot cables from preamp to amp. I like my amps close to the speakers, and my preamp and turntables close to my chair! In the lab I attached 75 feet of Beldon cable and there was no affect on signal. md

Lisa you reading this ...........no remote required[]

Craig

[DoubleJ]

First off just a little background fodder.

I first met Cut-Throat (Kevin) back in July '05 when I purchased his pristine '87 Oak Belles. After the deal was done, Kevin was gracious enough to give me an audition of his modded K-Horns w/ Altec horns. I was blown away by the way they sounded even though they were not in proper corners This was due in part that Kevin's spacious basement really didn't have any proper corners.

Fast Forward to April 06, Kevin now has corners to place his K-Horns. If you haven't had a chance to see his thread showing his new listening room, you owe it to yourself to see the pictures. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but seeing it person leaves you speechless. What a well thought out design. Everything has its place and is well lighted to show off the beautiful equipment. Every door you open exposes hidden treasures (Look at Kevin's sig. line for a list of equipment ). The attention to detail doesn't stop at what you can see. Behind the scene was well thought out. Extra wall re-inforcements, dedicated circuits, and a clean wiring scheme round out the system. Here is a link to Kevin's thread;;

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/701988.aspx

The listening room that Kevin has created here should be shown in trade magazines. I'm positive, if it were pursued, it surely would be.

Now on to the listening session that Kevin and I had. It was a very good learning experience for me because I haven't heard any other tube gear but my own. It also gave me an oppurtunity to listen to other genres of music through K-Horns, that are driven by tube gear. (Jazz, Piano, Art Pepper etc)

Kevin was dead right in saying that the Peach is a bit warmer than the Welborne. I usually don't like to use the word "Warm" because it can give the wrong impression. I'll attempt to explain, The music I listen to (New age music, Synthesizer type music, Kitaro) the warmer the better. There is no real need to be able to pick out detail. The music is too random (artifical may be a better word) to even attempt to derive detail. On the other hand, if you listen to lets say piano music, the more detail, the better.

I can't remember the name of the piano pieces you played, Kevin, but that is were I heard the most difference between the Peach and the Welborne. The Peach smoothed out the sound just a tad and IMO opinion took away from the nuiances (sp?) of a piano. i.e. hearing the stops, the sound of the keys coming to rest, and the strings' vibrations.

I have not heard the hum that Kevin mentioned but now that it has been mentioned, I will probably hear it now as well. []

Both of these pre-amps are beautiful pieces of work and are very close in sound. Each has it pluses and minuses but they are so minimal to make one better than the other

Kevin approached this "Shoot-Out" the best way possible. He used music that he knows very well and got acclimated to a new piece of gear before he formulated his opinion. What makes this review even more credible in my book is that Kevin has extensive experience with may different types of amps, pre-amps and also has the ability to build his own. He knows what he likes and what it takes to get there.

Kevin, my friend, I thank you very much for your time. In just the short time we had, I learned a lot.and I thank you for that as well.

JJ

[Cut-Throat]

Jon Thanks for all the glowing comments on my finished
room. You write wonderfully. All the thanks should go to you for making the drive to my place and allowing me an extended audition with the Peach.

The piano music that I had on was some Piano Solos by Jim
Brickman.

I should explain in detail about the hum/white noise I
heard. I believe this is due to the increased gain of the Peach over the Welborne.
A lot of factors are at work here.
First, all SET amps are notoriously noisy. Some worse than others. Its one of
the prices us SET amp fans deal with. I owned a Van Alstine Tube Hybrid amp
with 250 watts per channel, and this thing was so quiet, you swear it was off! My Moondogs Hooked up to my Reveille Welborne
pre-amp hums a lot louder than the Peach hooked up to my DRD45s. For that
reason I use a Welborne Passive Pre-amp (no-gain) with the Moondogs and they
are silenced. The DRD45s are the quietest SET amps that Ive yet seen.

Second Any hum/noise
at all is amplified by my Huge Altec Horns. I am sure that these are much more efficient
than the Klipsch Midrange drivers. They were used in movie theaters No wonder!

Hum/noise is probably caused by the Amplifier and only
amplified by the pre-amp. Ive also got a Pair RCA 45 Globes from the 1920s
and Im sure they produce a little noise along with the music.

So, I dont think Jon, that you will notice any hum at all
when you start using your own amplifier. Im sure Mark could probably confirm
that the Peach has more gain than my Welborne Reveille.

[gonzp]

LMAO........to Craig asking if Lisa was watching....

[DoubleJ]

"Kevin was dead right in saying that the Peach is a bit warmer than the Welborne. " ============= This would definitely be an area where "tube rolling" comes into play.

You are most likely correct, Mark.

Since I'm still just a newbie in regards to tubes, I have a lot to learn about tubes before I start rolling them.

And this site is just the place to get the education..Good or Bad []

JJ

[NOSValves]

"Kevin was dead right in saying that the Peach is a bit warmer than the Welborne. " ============= This would definitely be an area where "tube rolling" comes into play.

You are most likely correct, Mark.

Since I'm still just a newbie in regards to tubes, I have a lot to learn about tubes before I start rolling them.

And this site is just the place to get the education..Good or Bad []

JJ

I personally think this could be amp or system related in this particular case. The Last thing I would describe any JMA preamp would be added warmth in the bass department. I'm sure with the Welbourne being made by a strictly SET amplifier manufacturer is voiced to take advantage of the looser bass presentation of the SET amps. Take a preamp that pumps out more bass and it can easily over load the abilities of the amps in the LF region causing flabby warm bass that would be perceived as "Warmth"

Craig

Craig

[Cut-Throat]

The Last thing I would describe any JMA preamp would be added warmth in the bass department.

Craig

And of course neither did we! - You probably need to go back and read what was actually posted.

[NOSValves]

Getting Hostile just because someone does not agree with your accessment Classic Cut Throat as always. I knew those true colors would surface.

Craig

[Cut-Throat]

Getting Hostile just because someone does not agree with your accessment Classic Cut Throat as always. I knew those true colors would surface.

Craig

Well, I was just pointing out to you that no one in this thread mentioned 'Warm in the Bass Department', until you did. I'm not sure you could agree or disagree with my assessment, unless you'd like to review the Welborne pre-amp without actually hearing it.

I just merely asked you to read what we posted and you'll see that we did not mention 'Bass' at all. If your true colors are 'trolling', then I can learn to ignore you.