98_1LE Posted October 29, 2001 Share Posted October 29, 2001 ? ------------------ My system: Pioneer VSX 454 receiver Pioneer PD-F100 CD changer Pioneer DV-414 DVD player Klipsch KG5.5 main, KG.5 rear and KV-3 center My website rm -rf /bin/laden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted October 29, 2001 Share Posted October 29, 2001 I suppose it depends on your main speakers. As is the case with any sub or source material. The sub can take over a lot of the grunt work. The improvement comes when you have relatively small mains. Dolby Digital will work well without a sub. You should know that HT receivers can be set so that the low bass carried the main channels (as recorded), and that in the LFE (Low Frequency Effects)channel (as recorded), will go to the main speakers. This is when you are set up in the HT for no sub and mains to "large." This is all part of the issue of "bass management." Maybe your mains have very good bass response; or maybe not. On the other hand, with the sub present and things set up properly, the low bass in the main channel and LFE channel (as recorded), is sent to the sub. Of course, if you have a source using Dolby Digital, like DVD movies, it probably has a lot of low bass which is best handled by a sub. So it you want an excuse to buy one, consider this a good one. To expand a bit. In Dolby Digital there is a specific channel in the recording devoted to low frequency effects. It is available to the main speakers with the proper setting in the menu if you don't have a sub. Normal Dolby Pro Logic does not have a specific recorded channel for bass, it is all in the main channels as recorded. However, the processor can redirect low bass to the sub. It can do the same for regular old sources like LPs, FM, and CD. Others may wish to comment on specific HT receivers. Let us know what you're considering as far as an HT receiver, speakers, and a sub. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 10-29-2001 at 08:30 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted October 29, 2001 Share Posted October 29, 2001 yea like gil states - LFE is on a seperate channel. the .1 in whatever.1. .1 because it covers 1/10 the bandwidth of a full-range channel. besides usually better low freq performance from a good sub, LFE should be more dynamic if sent to a seperate sub woofer, especially w/ a line level connection. just what i've found, read & heard. ------------------ What's so funny 'bout peace, love & understanding? My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggs Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 Yeah, you're going to want a sub. ------------------ Denon AVR-2800 KG-4 mains (too bad the rest of my speakers aren't this good) Polk C-175 center (it's ok) Infinity RS-10 Surrounds (suck) Audiosource SW-15 subwoofer (excellent sub for it's price) Pioneer DV333 DVD Sony 5 disc CD player All in a 12x12 apartment bedroom. "What?! I can't hear you!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondial Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 Because Dolby Digital and DTS were designed as 5.1 systems to easily retrofit movie theaters to support them, they are best reproduced with a subwoofer. There are a number of Bass Management issues that force compromises (dynamic range, and signal to noise ratio) when there is no subwoofer in the system, regardless of the performance of the main loudspeakers. One of the reasons we offer separate bass management settings for Stereo versus Home Theater in our processors is because of the differences in decoding and performance of a compressed digital format like Dolby Digital, and a standard CD recording. Adam Gershon Mondial Designs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 Very "Music needs low bass. As low as 20 Hz for several reasons. First, deep bass fills in the audio notes of many instruments. It adds to the dimension of the notes, both for music and movies. It gives you a better sense of being in the large acoustic halls that are the natural home for most kinds of music. Big spaces resonate at very low frequencies, and the correct reproduction of bass notes provides a sense of the space." Second, bass speakers and bass in listening rooms are what we call "minimum phase" systems in general. In practical terms, this means that the frequency response determines the phase response. This implies that if a bass system in a room does NOT extend way down, there will be phase shifts further up. And these phase shifts extend way up, to where the human ear is quite sensitive to phase. Because of phase shifts all the way up to the higher frequencies, low bass also contributes to the accuracy of music. A study, a few years ago, showed that the perceived bass and lower midrange quality improves substantially if a system is flat to all the way down to 5 Hz - beyond the capabilities of the human ear - even though the material had no energy content below 40 Hz! The lower the bass the better. So despite the popular thinking, most full range speakers DO need the additional help of a sub-woofer in the lowest regions. First, most full range speakers do not reproduce the frequencies below 40 Hz with any kind of authority. Most of the modest budget models are not rated for output that low. The Canadian born PSB Stratus Silvers, for example, at $1899 a pair reproduce sound from 35-21,000Hz, which still leaves something lower to be reproduced. Reproducing the lowest tones, at equally audible levels at the mid-range, requires an enormous intensity. A 25 Hz tone requires an intensity level ten million times that needed for 4,000 Hz to be audible. This intensity is best served by speakers dedicated to the task and typically self powered by class D and H amplifiers. More importantly, deep bass contributes greatly to the enjoyment of movies. They add a third sense to movies and music. The sensation of the physical. Whether clearly audible or not, the lowest bass notes are sensed and often felt. The low tones portend imminent danger. They alert us to threats on screen. They add the sound of action to the big Hollywood money shots - the scenes of gun shots, punches, crashes, buses sliding and explosions. Once you have a good, powerful deep bass sub-woofer, you will be surprised at how much more sound there is on both movies and music. Adding deep bass adds an another dimension to your audio system. ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 With the KG5.5's you will have some bass response below 40Hz (I think they are rated in the mid 30's??) however a bunch of movies have information below that. This is where a good subwoofer can pick up the slack and give you the ommph that you FEEL in theaters. Other than that I agree with what has been said and Colin as usual makes some excellent points. Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLIPSCHHOG Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 TextHOME THEATER NEED BOOM BOOM! ------------------ LSU PAINTBALL- We'll cover you with our balls! Paintball players do it 'till their balls break! 1 Pair KLF-30's Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 Pre-amp Carver TFM-45 Amp Teac AD-4 CD Player ***Needed VPI HW Series Turntable*** Anybody Sellin'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 i can tell you from my own experience that even a modest sub (i 'field-tested' read that: borrowed for a couple of days) an energy 12" sub w/my ht setup. BIG difference at low-to-medium volume levels! check my sig. and you'll see my 5 ch. speakers are fairly heavy hitters on the bottom end. can't wait for the rsw-15! avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 35"tv panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire a 'teens' sub coming!(RSW-15 LOOKIN'GOOD!) KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEAM Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 G let me list all the equipment i have under my post. im not impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 HT system with no sub!? Listen you will not regret the fun a good sub grings to a HT or even music system.Being a sub freak,I dont miss any sub-bass. A sub woofer should start to take off where your mains lose output in the lower range.Well set up the sub will add drama,impact to moves and music. Too much and detail,quality is lost. Gil and Colin described many aspects well. Subs should not be hear,they should integrate(blend)with the other speakers.Not stand out. TheEAR(s) Now theears Bottom line a sub is a big plus in any HT system and in most music systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 I may have answered the question without identifying the issues. Issue 1: Generally, I believe DD will drive a given system as well as any other source will. You just have to pay attention to the bass management system on the HT menu. My point is that you don't need a sub to get the output of the LFE to the extent your mains can reproduce it. Issue 2: On the other hand, given any source, and most speaker systems, subs are devoted to the low end and really extend response in an impressive way. You don't need DD to get this. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 what i was trying to point out & i think adam validated is that the more processing done to a digital signal the more possible a loss of dynamics such as with the LFE channel. converting/blending the LFE channel into the other channels takes processing & usually a loss in dynamics of the LFE channel. w/ this, depending on the processing, one runs a greater chance of losing some LFE output and/or quality. w/ most a/v processors if you run a 5.1 channel source in a direct mode you'll get nonprocessed output from the LFE channel. running a theater mode you get dsp & possibly more signal loss. running no sub to mains you get even more processing & what i've found from listening to be a less dynamic LFE output. i've tested this w/ various equipment & set-ups. i tried main preouts to sub (sub:no) & thereby routed the LFE to mains & sub; & sub preout to sub w/ LFE sent there. i've tried speaker level thru the sub, & also w/ the sub in parallel. i've tried sub:no & used only mains & no sub for LFE i've always found the LFE to be much more dynamic using the processor's sub preout. using a preout meant specifically for that specific channel seems to make sense. seems to be the way most 5.1 source material & processors were meant to be used. iow, the more I altered the 5.1 source w/ a processor, the more I lost dynamics w/ the LFE channel. ------------------ My Home Systems Page This message has been edited by boa12 on 11-04-2001 at 01:48 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 my perspective on this to put it in other words is: when you use the bass management in a ss processor, by hooking a sub up to the lfe out/subwoofer:yes; there are several benefits: 1.in the case of my 777,the klf-30's are set to reproduce bass from 40Hz up, c-7 and ksps-6's 70Hz up, and the rest is sent to the sub, thereby allowing the speakers to operate in their most 'efficient' range. 2.the amplifiers no longer have to supply power to drive the bass below those rolloff frequencies, so the amps have more power available to do the rest of the frequencies. 3.by selecting the PROPER sub (taking into consideration the main 5 speakers' bass reproducing capabilities, room size, and bass management ajustments available) the sub does what it does best, low frequency reproduction w/its own dedicated amp/enclosure/room position(s). in conclusion, i believe a sub is a VITAL part of a ht setup. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 32"tv and sharp xv-z1u lcd projector panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire a 'teens' sub coming!(RSW-15 LOOKIN'GOOD!) KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 yea what av said too ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 AVman did you get the ksw15 yet? Whadda ya think? ------------------ My system thus far: 1980 Cornwalls (mains) 19?? Heresy II's (rears) 2001 KLF-C7 (center) 2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer) HK AVR 510 (reciever) Kenwood DV402 (DVD) Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 not yet, but the decision was made:when i observed the difference that a sub made,although good, the energy 12 couldn't 'keep up' w/the klipsches at high volume; and when i saw the specs on the rsw-15. i've set up audio systems just like mine b4 and had to use 2 ksw-15's to make an impact. i'm really glad i'll have an all klipsch speaker system, thanks to the reference sub. i've been spending money like water the past few weeks; bello intl. home theater furniture set (2-audio racks and large tv stand-all matching w/wood inserts to tie my upcoming (by 12-25 i hope) silver/gray/black sony kv40xbr700 hd-ready flat tube wega in with the m.oak klf-30's/c-7 speakers; sharp xv-z1u lcd projector which i've evaluated on a $9 white plastic dropcloth to determine screen size (90" is what i'm going with)and when i get the screen (stewart thx cert.cinemaperf 1.5 gain-another 3k-my cost!), movie theater themed carpet@$12/yd. that's so loud you can hear it it's got movie reels w/film coming off it,popcorn containers w/popcorn and movie tickets in the pattern on a deep purpleblue background;paint for the room (all flat-pewter for the brick walls, flat black base for the acoustic tile ceiling w/deep blue to sponge paint and some occaisional powder blue to sponge paint, flat black over the wood paneling and glow-in-the-dark spray paint for occaisional stars; a bistro table-gloss black w/2 red and 2 blue stools; and furniture to go in the room. it's going to be exceptional, after 10 yrs. 'in the biz' i'm finally doing my own ht room in a 38 yr.old house me and the w2b bought in May. i'm taking pix of the project, and will post'em as soon as i get through.gottalotta installs/sales to do to pay for it all, but the rsw-15 will probably come b4 the screen, and after i get the hdtv i'll get a hd sat receiver for that.avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 32"tv and sharp xv-z1u lcd projector panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire a 'teens' sub coming!(RSW-15 LOOKIN'GOOD!) KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98_1LE Posted November 7, 2001 Author Share Posted November 7, 2001 Thanks for the input. I ordered a KSW12 and it will be here tomorrow, but the new Denon reciver arrived today to replace the old Pioneer Prologic. After watching The Matrix, I wish I had held off on the sub. The KG5's produce more bass than my neighbors will tolerate (apartment). I can only imagine how it will sound with the sub. ------------------ My system: Denon AVR-1801 (ordered) Pioneer VSX 454 receiver (retired soon) Pioneer PD-F100 CD changer Pioneer DV-414 DVD player Klipsch KG5.5 main, KG.5 rear and KV-3 center My website rm -rf /bin/laden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 you should be able to achieve a 'fuller' sound at lower volume levels w/the powered sub, vs. without. you can independently ajust the sub vol level to have impact, w/o rattling the walls. avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center ksps-6 surrounds sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1 sony playstation 2 dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 32"tv and sharp xv-z1u lcd projector panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire a 'teens' sub coming!(RSW-15 LOOKIN'GOOD!) KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 One thing the Klipsch community may have not addressed is that even a moderately powerful sub MAY be inconsiderate to ones neihbors in an apartment or conventional condominium. I live in a quad level. My music/HT rig is in the half underground level on a slab in a very large (by my standards) family room. When the sytem is driven hard you can feel the bass through the slab 16 or more feet away. I use an Adire Audio Rava 12 in. sealed cabinet sub. If you plan to move into a single family home at another point in time; investing in other components may be a better choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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