First time Klipsch purchase [Chorus] - What to do about that missing 25-50 Hz octave?

[thepathlesstaken]

Found a seller for some reasonable quality (few chips and dings) Chorus speakers this weekend and snapped them up for $450.00.

After spending a good amount of time listening to them over the past few days I am pleased by the overall sound and listening experience. I knew there was a definite lack of low end but this did not really hinder the listening enjoyment. I was really amazed at the dynamics (transient response i.e. attack) of the low end considering the woofer is in a third order enclosure.

I did some A-B testing with my Acoustic Research 9s (-3 db @ 28 Hz) today and came away amazed at how much subsonic sound was not being reproduced by the Klipsch.

After doing the A-B test I dragged my HT HSU sub (12" driver) in the room and proceeded to listen to it with the Chorus in tandem. Having the subwoofer helped but the low end a bit but the low end still was lacking output.

Not ever having used a subwoofer in two channel listening I come here to ask the Heritage owners about what subwoofers they use or suggest to solve 25-50 Hz gap?

[oldtimer]

Chorus goes pretty low, 38hz IIRC, so I am not sure what you mean by missing up to 50hz. The Forte goes lower but is not as "big" in soundstage. Are you sure you have them placed correctly, as in about a foot or so from the wall, in the corners, and toed in for proper imaging? $450 is a great deal for sure. Most music is between 40hz and up, but maybe you are not listening to music?

[flannj]

I use a Velodyne DD-18 in my basement HT with Chorus mains. It is a pretty substantial sub, with movies it is necessary even with Chorus. For music perhaps not quite as important. But having said that it does still add to music. It takes a very low volume setting on the sub to make a difference. I am not talking about overpowering the room with bass but rather a very subtle yet important addition. My Velodyne is EQ'd with the room and crossed over at 80 HZ. I continue to experiment with Large and Small settings. I do play around with this in a 2 channel set up as well. Room size does play a part in this, my room is fairly large 30 x 35 x 7.5 = 7875 Cu. ft. Compared to the Khorns in my family room the Chorus are lacking in bass, but compared to most everything else I have heard in a home stereo they fill a room rather nicely just by themselves.

-Jim

[Path - If I might steal your thread for a moment. I am looking for a Chorus to replace my Academy center if anyone is looking to sell. I would even be willing to buy a pair if the seller doesn't want split them up.]

[thepathlesstaken]

Chorus -3 dB down point is 45 Hz, least that is what the Klipsch literature tells me. In addition the Chorus is a ported 3rd order enclosure which means it drops off steeply (18-24 dB per octave) as opposed to a sealed enclosure (12 dB / octave)

I am a firm believer that the octave (20-40 Hz) above infrasound (threshold where most people are unable to hear, sub 17 Hz) does impart quite a bit to the quality of any music.

+/- 3 dB is roughly half the precieved loudness

For a good test check out this page. Use sealed headphones (if you don't have a pair might I suggest Sony MDR-V6 as a great entry level can) and play these tones:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/hearing.html

60 Hz @ 0 dB

45 Hz @ -3 dB

30 Hz @ -24 dB

I hear the 30 Hz tone (at -24 dB) but when that is played along side the 60-500 Hz range (at or around 0 dB) that the Chorus woofer plays at, it is very hard to discern the 30 Hz tones due to the very low level they are played at.

There is quite a bit of music that reaches in to the 17-50 Hz range. Organs and Pianos lowest notes are 16 Hz and 24 Hz repsectively. The tracks I was using to the A-B testing were off of Becks - Sea of Change CD. Speaker placement was toed in and they were both within one to two feet from side walls.

Flannj thanks for the advice, does it seem to add any coloration (i.e. not complementary sounding) to the already very dry sound (I assume the Chorus enclosure has low Qtc, that is what is sounds like) of the Chorus bass?

[Colin]

hard to compete with bass reflex designs in the punchy mid-bass area (where so much music requiresd so much eneregy). how does your own frequency respsonse tests between the 2 speakers compare?

Is the AR bumped up in the mid-bass (40-100Hz), where the Chorus rolls off?

[thepathlesstaken]

Have not done a RTA sweep in quite a few years as my 2 channel audio setup has not changed at all. I do put a good amount of trust behind what ears are hearing though. Good idea to borrow a friends RTA and do a sweep though.

AR strived for a very flat and neutral response with their designs, the AR9 is no exception.

Four 11" AR woofers are in an active push pull (think active passive radiator) largish sealed enclosure. They mate with an 8" midbass driver at 200 Hz which in turn mates with a 2.5" dome midrange at around 2-3k I think.

The issue is that the ARs just plainly reach lower due to the design and enclosure. I am used to hearing lower frequency range and the Klipsch just don't deliver in this respect. Other than the previous complaint about the Chorus I do enjoy listening to them. I just figured that other Klipsch users would have noted the "missing octave" and done something to fill the so called octave gap.

[Kriton]

Wrong thread!

[Colin]

mmm, use the ARs as sub-woofers for the Chorus?

[veloceleste]

.

[DrWho]

I've got Chorus II's that dig down to 38Hz and I also feel a subwoofer

is mandatory. Right now I'm using a pair of Marantz 940's (old 70's

4-way speaker with everything turned off but the woofers) and a JBL

2226H in a 10 cubic foot cabinet tuned to 20Hz - all powered with a

1000W amp. It's not an ideal setup but it makes a world of difference

to have that 25-40Hz there. I will eventually be replacing the JBL

driver with a real 15" sub...looking to gain extension down to 18Hz or

so.

Anyways, what is your price range and space constraints? Especially for

2-channel listening you are going to need to find a sub that can track

the dynamics of your mains - which is actually going to be difficult to

do. But since you didn't mention a price range I will recommend the

Klipsch THX Ultra2 subwoofer system....the thing is fricken insane

awesome.

[Cut-Throat]

Rel

[thepathlesstaken]

I've got Chorus II's that dig down to 38Hz and I also feel a subwoofer

is mandatory. Right now I'm using a pair of Marantz 940's (old 70's

4-way speaker with everything turned off but the woofers) and a JBL

2226H in a 10 cubic foot cabinet tuned to 20Hz - all powered with a

1000W amp. It's not an ideal setup but it makes a world of difference

to have that 25-40Hz there. I will eventually be replacing the JBL

driver with a real 15" sub...looking to gain extension down to 18Hz or

so.

Anyways, what is your price range and space constraints? Especially for

2-channel listening you are going to need to find a sub that can track

the dynamics of your mains - which is actually going to be difficult to

do. But since you didn't mention a price range I will recommend the

Klipsch THX Ultra2 subwoofer system....the thing is fricken insane

awesome.

Glad someone here thinks a musical sub is mandatory with these Chorus!

Price range is going to be in the $500.00 or less range. Space is not that much of an issue so I might just go with a DIY deal as I have built and tuned a good many car sub enclosures. Thinking of a sonotube enclosure as it can be take up a small foot print but still have a large volume (vertically that is).

I do have a person that can hook me up with SpeakerCraft or Sunfire subs. Pretty sure even with the discount the Sunfire is going to be way out of my range.

Biggest problem is matching the output of the Chorus since they are so damn effcient (and have considerably more piston area), my 12" HSU sonotube sub is drowned out by the Chorus low end.

[DrWho]

Well $500 isn't a huge budget for a sub - especially to keep up with

2-channel listening. If you went the DIY route one thing that came to

mind would be a pair of these (which you could build for around $250

each):

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/718388.aspx

Just add 6dB to all the charts for running two instead of one - and

then add another 6dB if you want to take corner loading into account

(the models are running in half-space and a corner is eighth-space).

Another route you might consider would be a single Dayton Titanic MKIII

15" mated with the 500W plate amp using 3dB of boost at 20Hz with the

parametric:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/718388.aspx ($300)

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-420 ($200)

So with shipping, ports, and a cabinet I know this throws you off

budget but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. It will yield a max

of 115dB with an F3 of 20Hz.

But the assasins are probably a better deal anyway because they're still on sale and have better non-linear behavior.

As far as commercial subs there is the klipsch sub-12 which is

surprisingly good for only ~$400 over at Best Buy (it keeps going on

and off sale, going as low as $250 I believe, or maybe it was $350).

And then there is SVS, which I'm not really a fan of because all their

subs have this signature warbly sound to them (dunno really how to

describe it). Nevertheless, they are good bang for the buck and a lot

of people enjoy them. They are kinda along similar lines as HSU - not

sure which HSU sub you're using so take that into consideration.

One other comment - I know you want to go down-firing, but there are

reasons not to from a performance perspective. So if you're looking for

space-saving then you might consider something triangle shaped like the

new Klipsch RT-10d and RT-12d (I'm not sure if their specs are up on

the site yet).

Hope this helps. rock on