Crown for POWER!!!...????

[colterphoto1]

ahhh, that's better.

I think QSC might really be onto something there.

[Bill Cain]

Crown Macrotech's. Very good, but watch your wall voltage...they can suck it down. 20 amp lines are a must.

When I can, I use my custom Power Distro unit, which has 30A breakers for my MA-3600vz's. Otherwise, I have a 20A rated Furman unit for each that shows line voltage and current draw. The MA-3600vz's will trip a 20A breaker @ the 20A reading on the panel, so each amp gets it's own breaker and I keep an eye on the panels. LOL

Krell? Not bad. I've replaced a number of them with Bryston amps. Their current models are bling bling city with more polished metal than is on display at the Barrett Jackson. In studios...sorry, you are probably gonna find Bryston if they are using higher end passive cooled amps. They are more neutral, more transparent, and bulletproof. Just why is it that Krell doesn't do a 20 year warranty like Bryston? They certainly charge enough for them...oh wait...I've seen a number go down in flames...that's why. I used to sell them. Oh, and I don't believe their current amps are 1 ohm rated. Why bother? Nobody in the home market runs constant 1 ohm loads after the silliness of the Apogee Scintillas faded from memory (thank GOD!). As for banks of pro subs...most pro guys simply thow more amps at it than run tons of cabinets with a super low impedence and risk an amp meltdown in the middle of a performance (the ULTIMATE engineers nightmare).

The 1 Ohm load scenario is BS. Nobody (with a brain) runs rigs at that level. [N]

Brystron has a great rep. Krell doesn't. [N]

Thanks for offering your well thought-out and comprehensive overview of the Crown lineup and succinct evaluation of both Krell and a boatload of other amps. [Y]

[Bill Cain]

And if Crown makes such refined power amps why do you people have to hide in the subwoofer section to talk about power amps! To me that is the faith you show,what is using Crown in a "High-End" system a crime? []

Despite your butchered syntax, it is apparent that you equate answering a person's question with "hiding." Folks that use Crowns don't usually feel the need to put down other amps. We just use what WE think is best for US. No need to thump our chests on a Klipsch forum, or be an obnoxious ***. I would guess that NOBODY who has thoughtfully chosen a Crown amp as a solution to their needs would think of using Krell. Not that the Krell products are Krapp, they just are different answers to different questions. So, for you, they may be the "answer." For me, they beg the question....

Since you have added nothing to this thread but your obtuse and irrellevant rambling, I respectfully suggest that you continue to enjoy your Krell in whatever manner pleases you. Kindly remove your head from the firm grip of your clenched sphincter. It will be much easier to hear.

You have a nice day!!!! []

[chops]

And if Crown makes such refined power amps why do you people have to hide in the subwoofer section to talk about power amps! To me that is the faith you show,what is using Crown in a "High-End" system a crime? []

Despite your butchered syntax, it is apparent that you equate answering a person's question with "hiding." Folks that use Crowns don't usually feel the need to put down other amps. We just use what WE think is best for US. No need to thump our chests on a Klipsch forum, or be an obnoxious ***. I would guess that NOBODY who has thoughtfully chosen a Crown amp as a solution to their needs would think of using Krell. Not that the Krell products are Krapp, they just are different answers to different questions. So, for you, they may be the "answer." For me, they beg the question....

Since you have added nothing to this thread but your obtuse and irrellevant rambling, I respectfully suggest that you continue to enjoy your Krell in whatever manner pleases you. Kindly remove your head from the firm grip of your clenched sphincter. It will be much easier to hear.

You have a nice day!!!! []

To TheWOOFER...

Not to mention that steamer asked about an AMP for his SUBS in the SUB section of the forum. I mean, did you expect us to answer his subwoofer amp question in a totally different area of the forum?! [:|]

[DrWho]

The 1 Ohm load scenario is BS. Nobody (with a brain) runs rigs at that level. [N]

I know I commented early on "1 ohm" and wanted to mention that there

are a lot of situations where "1 ohm" loads are achieved...but they are

usually only over narrow bandwidths of the response. If you've got two

ported stage monitors, chances are they might have an impedance swing

as low as 3 ohms around the 150Hz region (octave above F3). If you wire

a pair of these in parallel you will end up with a 1.5 ohm dip. If your

amplifier doesn't double down perfectly, then ONLY when running the

amplifier at PEAK power output will you have a slight dip in the

frequency response where the impedance drops...maybe around 1dB.

The conclusion is it ultimately doesn't matter - because if you're

driving your amp into clipping, then you've got other larger issues

than a 1dB change in the frequency response. The real solution is to

get an amp big enough such that it doesn't have to clip.

But if you're talking a 1 ohm nominal load, then you're just freaken

insane...it will have impedance dips as low as .2 ohms and that'll just

drain any power supply. In those cases it's time to start looking into

"non audio" amps that can handle DC loads all day long.

[Jay481985]

Might I remind everyone that TheWoofer was an impersonator of TheEar (a coworker that made this account and used TheEar's pictures while he was on vacation. There is either two things that is happening. TheEar is using this account or his co worker is.

[Bill Cain]

Might I remind everyone that TheWoofer was an impersonator of TheEar (a coworker that made this account and used TheEar's pictures while he was on vacation. There is either two things that is happening. TheEar is using this account or his co worker is.

My money is on TheEar. [Y] Too many similarities......

The "co-worker" was an excuse when his duplicitous shill-posting became apparent. []

I'm wondering if TheEar / TheWoofer ever visited Stereo, the club in Montreal?

[TheWOOFER]

Might I remind everyone that TheWoofer was an impersonator of TheEar (a coworker that made this account and used TheEar's pictures while he was on vacation. There is either two things that is happening. TheEar is using this account or his co worker is.

My money is on TheEar. [Y] Too many similarities......

The "co-worker" was an excuse when his duplicitous shill-posting became apparent. []

I'm wondering if TheEar / TheWoofer ever visited Stereo, the club in Montreal?

Investigator Cain,

Yes TheWOOFER was created by me(TheEAR),when I lost my password and wanted to post from work.Yes TheWOOFER is now known as an irritating clown thanks to my side kick at work. []

And no I do not bash Crown or Bryston,to the contrary I recomend Bryston over Krell as they are more durable and more proven amps.20 year warranty,the best in the business.

I asked moderators to delete this account.

No I never visited Stereo. I do however "visit" local audio shops and buy in bunches on occasion.

And to answer why Krell does not post the DAMPING factor spec,I was shocked to see one time a figure of 60 of damping on a big Krell amp! Unless it was a gross type it is piss poor for an amp of this price,size,cost and ...might.

And I (TheEAR) would never say Krell is used in studios,they are NOT.Very few use Classe amps,again fragile amps.The only "audiophile" amps used are Bryston and Perreaux.Both solid no nonsense designs great for studio and home use.

[Bill Cain]

And o answer why Krell does not post the DAMPING factor spec,I was shocked to see one time a figure of 60 of damping on a big Krell amp! Unless it was a gross type it is piss poor for an amp of this price,size,cost and ...might.

And I (TheEAR) would never say Krell is used in studios,they are NOT.Very few use Classe amps,again fragile amps.The only "audiophile" amps used are Bryston and Perreaux.Both solid no nonsense designs great for studio and home use.

60?

Ouch..... That's lower than a snake's armpits.

[jacksonbart]

Might I remind everyone that TheWoofer was an impersonator of TheEar (a coworker that made this account and used TheEar's pictures while he was on vacation. There is either two things that is happening. TheEar is using this account or his co worker is.

My money is on TheEar. [Y] Too many similarities......

The "co-worker" was an excuse when his duplicitous shill-posting became apparent. []

I'm wondering if TheEar / TheWoofer ever visited Stereo, the club in Montreal?

Investigator Cain,

Yes TheWOOFER was created by me(TheEAR),when I lost my password and wanted to post from work.Yes TheWOOFER is now known as an irritating clown thanks to my side kick at work. []

And no I do not bash Crown or Bryston,to the contrary I recomend Bryston over Krell as they are more durable and more proven amps.20 year warranty,the best in the business.

I asked moderators to delete this account.

No I never visited Stereo. I do however "visit" local audio shops and buy in bunches on occasion.

And to answer why Krell does not post the DAMPING factor spec,I was shocked to see one time a figure of 60 of damping on a big Krell amp! Unless it was a gross type it is piss poor for an amp of this price,size,cost and ...might.

And I (TheEAR) would never say Krell is used in studios,they are NOT.Very few use Classe amps,again fragile amps.The only "audiophile" amps used are Bryston and Perreaux.Both solid no nonsense designs great for studio and home use.

[Bill Cain]

jacksonbart, don't hold back; say what you REALLY think.

[]

Might I remind everyone that TheWoofer was an impersonator of TheEar (a coworker that made this account and used TheEar's pictures while he was on vacation. There is either two things that is happening. TheEar is using this account or his co worker is.

My money is on TheEar. [Y] Too many similarities......

The "co-worker" was an excuse when his duplicitous shill-posting became apparent. []

I'm wondering if TheEar / TheWoofer ever visited Stereo, the club in Montreal?

Investigator Cain,

Yes TheWOOFER was created by me(TheEAR),when I lost my password and wanted to post from work.Yes TheWOOFER is now known as an irritating clown thanks to my side kick at work. []

And no I do not bash Crown or Bryston,to the contrary I recomend Bryston over Krell as they are more durable and more proven amps.20 year warranty,the best in the business.

I asked moderators to delete this account.

No I never visited Stereo. I do however "visit" local audio shops and buy in bunches on occasion.

And to answer why Krell does not post the DAMPING factor spec,I was shocked to see one time a figure of 60 of damping on a big Krell amp! Unless it was a gross type it is piss poor for an amp of this price,size,cost and ...might.

And I (TheEAR) would never say Krell is used in studios,they are NOT.Very few use Classe amps,again fragile amps.The only "audiophile" amps used are Bryston and Perreaux.Both solid no nonsense designs great for studio and home use.

[TheEAR]

And o answer why Krell does not post the DAMPING factor spec,I was shocked to see one time a figure of 60 of damping on a big Krell amp! Unless it was a gross type it is piss poor for an amp of this price,size,cost and ...might.

And I (TheEAR) would never say Krell is used in studios,they are NOT.Very few use Classe amps,again fragile amps.The only "audiophile" amps used are Bryston and Perreaux.Both solid no nonsense designs great for studio and home use.

60?

Ouch..... That's lower than a snake's armpits.

Good,back.Yes detective Cain I am back!

I doubt the lowly damping is real,as even tube amps can match and surpass a lowly 60 of damping in the lower registers.Take an ATI power amp,they claim 500 damping and I remember when measured the number was over 1400. Now with a low damping of 60 the Krell would have poor control in the bass,and it is far from being the case.

[TheSoundBroker]

Actually, to be fair, that may be a correct figure. They may have rated it 20 to 20K. Most of the time you see damping factors rated at limited bandwidth (to 500 hz or 1 Khz), which for subwoofer use is absolutely fine. If you extend the bandwidth full range, the figure drops...a lot. If, however, that rating is bandwidth limited...somebody at Krell probably missed a zero since their amps usually do have pretty decent bottom end control.

And Perreaux....man that is a company who has stayed on the sidelines, which is a shame!

I remember the first Perreaux demo I ever saw. Rep brought one in...flat dropped it on the floor from about 2 feet (much to our horror), grinned and hooked it up...it proceeded to work perfectly. Unfortunately, they have never seemed to be able to break out of the fringe, but they make some good stuff.

[TheWOOFER]

SoundBroker,

Sorry to post as TheWOOFER ,but it is TheEAR not the clown clowing around. Posting from work.

Yes Perreaux is a little known company outside of the pro audio world,and their products are built like tanks and perform great.They are alot like Bryston in a few respects and should be better known,a few studios in Montreal use Perreaux power amps.Radio Canada unless I am mistaken had/has Perraux power amps in thier studios.

What sells in the "High-End" is the impressive box and faceplate these days.To me as long as the amp means business its all good.

As for the Krell daming of 60,yes a zero was missing or worse it was a full bandwith figure.Anyone knows damping factor falls like a stone when you move from the deep bass up into the midrange and up.And high damping is crucial down deep anyway,where the cone travel will be greatest.At 20Hz damping factor is of little importance and no amp made has a high damong factor in the upper freq.

SoundBroker what do you think about Earthquake multichannel power amps,am I mistaken to say they are alot like a more overbuilt ATI amp.And have you tried CinePro,read only great reviews about them and maybe I may have a chance to get the 3K6 Gold.Plain looking but all business inside.

[TheSoundBroker]

SoundBroker what do you think about Earthquake multichannel power amps,am I mistaken to say they are alot like a more overbuilt ATI amp.And have you tried CinePro,read only great reviews about them and maybe I may have a chance to get the 3K6 Gold.Plain looking but all business inside.

I like the Earthquake amps quite a bit. I actually sell them but don't advertise them heavily because to be frank, there were a ton of unauthorized dealers selling them online. Now that Earthquake is getting their act together, I am more serious about their products since they offer a LOT of value. I've been selling a lot of their Thor inwall subs...only decent in-wall sub I've run across that doesn't cost thousands. Just sold 4 of them into a system...that should be interesting! Just don't buy their PA-600 amp which is woefully underpowered and overpriced. I sell them with the Behringer EP-2500 or the Crown amps...WAY better. The Cinenova Grand amp is definitely a VERY different sounding amp than the ATI amps (which I've sold and displayed in the past)...smoother and deeper versus lighter and more forward sounding. Is is a very effortless sounding beast. I had my first taste of it about 3 years ago when a client of mine traded a 5 channel version in for a Theta Dreadnaught (I *used* to be a Theta dealer but dropped the line...too overpriced for the performance and reliability was spotty at best). Well...that Earthquake amp impressed the HECK out of me. It does a PHENOMINAL job on the big Ref speakers. I thought it was equal to the Dreadnaught and told the customer so (they were dead set on the Theta so who am I to argue [] ). I have Earthquake investigating making a 3 channel balanced Cinenova for me. I may try three of them to run the 9 channels in the demo theater. That would give that amp HUGE power supply capacitance running only 3 channels off a PS designed for 7. I'd also love to see them come out with a higher power version.

As for the CinePro, they offered me a dealership but I decided against. The amps are well built and sound really good. Problem is, the company is now on the second ownership round, they seem to have expanded beyond their amp lineup into other things like speakers. They seem to be a bit undercapitalized and staying far on the fringes after the big splash and dash the first round that, from what I understand, burned a lot of people in the biz. Also, their price points are a bit hard to justify when you put them up against things like the Earthquake and...in the same price range, the Bryston. For the price of a new 4K6SEGold, I can sell somebody a Bryston 6BSST and a 4BSST...and if you can spend that kind of coin...I'd look at three 7BSST's up front which are some of THE most transparent, effortless amps on the face of the earth. If I had to make a bet as to what amp will work and what company (Bryston or CinePro) will be around in 20 years...

Besides which...I sold the guys who owned CinePro some stuff and had a heck of a time collecting the balance from them which ain't a good sign.

[steamer]

Ahem...back to the ORIGINAL question...

Good amps for subwoofer use...

Blue Ice Amp...not my cuppa. Low damping factor and it is OBNOXIOUSLY gaudy. There are also few published specs on their website. Actually there is basically NOTHING on their website to speak of. There is an arguement as to whether that amp has a -3db point at 40 hz...you really want to use it to drive subs? Crown? Full set of specs and a forum where you can post and the engineers will post back answers, often in hours. Most of the models are down 3 db at 10.

Check out the Crown K1 and K-2. Both highly respected for LFE use.

Crown XLS. Not bad, a bit low on the damping factor...not my first recommendation for a dedicated sub amp.

The new Crown XTI series looks very good for sub use. It is also voltage efficient. Over double the damping factor of XLS but more $$, though it does have a built in LFE parametric section...kinda like a BFD light onboard!

Crown Macrotech's. Very good, but watch your wall voltage...they can suck it down. 20 amp lines are a must.

Crown I-Tech. Big horsepower. >5000 on the damping factor which is HUGE. Yeah, it is a good subwoofer amp to say the least. Wall voltage is a "no duh". By the way...why doesn't Krell publish damping factors on their amps? I looked in their manuals and couldn't find it.

Crown Comtech. These sometimes come up CHEAP. I just missed a Comtech 1600 on Ebay, a massive beast. Woulda made a great sub amp. Input pack needs to be upgraded to take XLR's but that is cheap. Again...you'll need 20 amp lines for the bigger ones.

Crown/Techron. Talk about massive! These are industrial amps used to run servo motors, shaker tables, etc. You think Krell will run loads...man, they aren't even on the same PLANET as the biggest Techron amps. Their biggest setup requires 230v 3 phase, will run a 0.25 ohm load, and delivers a constant (not peak, constant) 180 amps of power which translates into MANY MANY kilowatts of power...enough to literally kill you. They also happen to sound PHENOMINAL. So there. [] The 7560 and 7570 come up on Ebay in the $700 range but they probably should be gone thru since many have lead hard lives. Rebuilt, they would giggle uncontrollably at a home subwoofer setup.

Other than Crown...

Bryston 7B. Far Far Bigger power supply than your 4B. More control.

Bryston 14B. Stereo version of the above...but a bit less power supply capacitance/ch than the 7B. Stick with 7B's if you can for LFE use (this from direct experience running the bass columns on PMC MB2/XBD's where we were clipping the 14b and had better luck with the 7B.

Bryston 28B SST monoblocks. Krell look out. This beast is coming soon. Get an electrician. No pricing announced yet that I know of...probably $5K each.

Another 4B...shoulda grabbed that other one...you coulda made money! Good amps in mono. Problem is, their damping factor gets halved and that could be an issue in that it starts at 300 to begin with. Up top and in stereo, still a great amp. In mono, maybe not the best LFE amps. Current SST version is better in that respect.

Mackie M2600. Big, beefy horsepower. Also needs wall amperage. I may have a used one coming in (actually getting a pair...but will probably keep one and sell the other). One of the better deals in bass land...lots of people keep them.

QSC Powerlight, PLX-2. Excellent for bass. Bob Lee at QSC is active on the AVS forum.

QSC RMX (Bigger ones). Also excellent but power hungry. The guys at Danley Labs like the bigger QSC's and that says a LOT for bass.

Lab Gruppen. Expensive studio amps...another recommendation from the guys at Danley Labs for LFE...trust me, those guys KNOW bass.

Behringer EP-2500. Probably the best cheap sub amp. I sell them for $299. >300 damping factor, 450 w/ch at 8, 1300 bridged mono, though again, you half the damping factor in mono. Lot of guys using them for dedicated IB sub amps on the AVS forum.

Krell? Not bad. I've replaced a number of them with Bryston amps. Their current models are bling bling city with more polished metal than is on display at the Barrett Jackson. In studios...sorry, you are probably gonna find Bryston if they are using higher end passive cooled amps. They are more neutral, more transparent, and bulletproof. Just why is it that Krell doesn't do a 20 year warranty like Bryston? They certainly charge enough for them...oh wait...I've seen a number go down in flames...that's why. I used to sell them. Oh, and I don't believe their current amps are 1 ohm rated. Why bother? Nobody in the home market runs constant 1 ohm loads after the silliness of the Apogee Scintillas faded from memory (thank GOD!). As for banks of pro subs...most pro guys simply thow more amps at it than run tons of cabinets with a super low impedence and risk an amp meltdown in the middle of a performance (the ULTIMATE engineers nightmare).

Soundbroker,

Thankyou for a very informative post.I had a pair of 7B's in another system that REALLY reqired the power to bring the speakers to life.I actually powered my LaScala's with them for a few months.Way overkill oviously and I know what they can do.Sold them to fund my transition to tubes and have never looked back until I got this crazy idea of a dedicated sub system to pair with my Scala's and tubes.The 4B does very good about 98% of the time but....you know what I'm talkin about,never enough!

I have not been on the forum much lately due to my other addiction called a Harley Davidson.Well I go to the sub forum today and theres 4 damn pages...WTH.I was hoping this thread would just dissapear...felt like an idiot.But the info contained in this thread far outweigh's that.Thankyou all.

Greg

Note:I will probably get another 4B and understand the damping is halved in mono operation but think it can be overrated sometimes....here we go another debate LOL.Check out this link on the very subject and post away!!!!

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/amplifiers/dampingfactor.php

might as well continue the thread

[TheEAR]

SoundBroker,

Now reading your posts again,I realised you said Bryston 28B SST! Holy smokes,I am on cloud 9 now.The 9B SST is one of the finest amps at any price and now the 28B SST! Amazingly good news! Now knowing Bryston they should be priced well and not overpriced,I am hoping below $15000CAN per pair. These should dispose of Mark Levinson,Classe and Krell in quality,power and with Bryston's second to none 20 year warranty...the amps to get when you have the means.

I tell you what,I was eying the 9B SST or the SimAudio MOON W10 monoblocks,and now this changes it all.Would make an awesome power to feed my new Dynaudio Contour S5.4's. I tell ya I will be visiting Bryston daily and give them a call tomorow.

And we know Bryston and Dynaudio are a winnining combination in the high end and studios. []

[TheEAR]

Here a pic of the Bryston 28B SST monoblocks,1200W RMS into 8OHMS!!! Now with this kind of power you are talking,knowing Bryston tis would = around 2KW RMS into 4OHMS!

I am in drool mode right NOW! I cancel all my other plans,these amps I have to get. ME WANT ME WILL HAVE

Way to go Bryston

Damn and here goes more money into audio. [:'(]

[chops]

I'm sorry, but even if I had Bill Gates' money, it would be a cold day in h3ll before I'd waste $13.5k on a pair of amps.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they aren't good amps, because I know that they are. There's just simply no way I could justify a purchase like that.

[TheEAR]

I'm sorry, but even if I had Bill Gates' money, it would be a cold day in h3ll before I'd waste $13.5k on a pair of amps.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they aren't good amps, because I know that they are. There's just simply no way I could justify a purchase like that.

Stop IFFING IF IF IF, when you have Bill Gates money you live in 40 plus million dollar home on your island and if you are an audiophile or like your hobby 13.5K is NOTHING.

Heck maybe I am sick but so far I am over 140K invested into this hobby of audio,yes $140000,$20000 into RC and $38000 into computers and related stuff.

Now back on topic...

I am going to get these Bryston monoblocks unless the sky turns red and our universe collapses.