Turntable advice

[Klipschguy]

Hi all,

What do you guys think of the Technics SL 1200? Is it capable of home audio excellence, but audio guys just don't want to like it because it is a direct drive DJ table (kind of like people do with the "Klipsch PA speaker" thing). The specs for wow and flutter and S/N ratio are better than a lot these popular audiophile belt drive tables (I know specs aren't everything). It also seems to be pretty resistant to vibration.

Would an entry level Pro-ject, Music Hall, or Goldring turntable serve me better?

I am not trying to get any type of flame war going on here - just want to understand the deal before purchasing a turntable.

Andy

[colterphoto1]

I have two of the 'consumer' version SL1700 semi-auto direct drives which might share some similarities with the 1200. They sounded great back in the 70's when I was in High School.

But alas, now with Klispch speakers and subwoofers- every bit of rumble and vibration is heard through the speakers. No mechanical feedback from vibrations getting into the table- it's the motor noise being transmitted internally.

I'm thinking of 'updating' to one of the old-fashioned belt-drive models.

Michael

[www.records]

I feel the Technics SL1200 is an excellent product and many audiophiles that preciously thumbed their noses at it being DD are changing their tune after actually buying and listening to them. They were not designed to be DJ tables, the DJ's just adopted it as being the table of choice for it's quick startup, ease of use and it's being built to standup to abuse. It's arm seems to be considered it's weak point, but many have said it isn't nearly as bad as it's reputation. The fluid dampener offered by Kabusa is reported to be well worth the money ($150). When you consider the amount of R&D that has gone into this table and the vast number of tables sold and still in use today, it seems like a pretty good endorsement. There are several of the hardcore vinyl folks over on the vinylasylum buying 1200 and have lots of good things to say about them. With many claiming them the best buy in TT in the under $1000 range. DD tables have gotten kind of a bad rap by audiophiles over the years, but that seems to be changing. DD done correctly can be very good. Alot of the bad rap came from very cheaply made DD tables made during the 70's. Even Chris at Teres is cominng out with a DD table that will be his TOTL table offered. So, don't discount a DD table because of it's drive system.

I would be leary about buying one that has been put thru the rigors of DJ use. Last I looked you could buy a new 1210 MKII (black version) online that included shipping for $400. I think this was from musiciansfriend.com

After saying all of this, I don't own one. I do have an SL1300 and a SP-25 which is basically a 1200 made for commercial use in radio stations. The high mass arms are an excellent match for a Denon 103 MC cartridge if that is a direction you are looking to go.

[garymd]

If it sounds anything like my SL1800, don't bother. It could be completely different though. I couldn't get the 1800 to sound good with ANY cart. Always thin and lifeless sounding. I spent just over $100 on a completely stock Thorens TD165 which just left the Technics in the dust. That Thorens is an amazing TT for the money and sounds very full, lush and musical. If I wanted a TT on the cheap, I'd look for an old Thorens in good shape. Ebay and A'gon are usually loaded with them.

JMHO as always.

[3dzapper]

The original SL-1200, one of the first high end DD tables, just blew away the Duals, Thorens' , ARs and Girards of the day in it's price range. Wow and flutter and rumble figures were astonishingly low for a consumer priced TT. The stock arm was decent justnot up to the standards of an SME or today's Rega RB-300 with a VTA mod.

The original 1200 was basically a self contained SP-10 with a huge motor, heavy platter and plinthe, a vibration absorbing base, excellent mat and adjustable sorbathane legs. With the dust cover off, it was nearly impervious to feedback even on a wooden floor.

The other Technics models mentioned are either "value engineered" to a lower price point or have clunky unreliable automatic mechanisms.

[Klipschguy]

Thank you for the replys.

I want to buy my turntable once and be done with it. Are the new Technics built like the old ones??

BTW, Gary my brother has a Thorens TD-165 and it sounds great (a Grado Gold, I believe). Thorens are nice. I might consider a good vintage one.

I have a "like new" Ortofon OM30. I'm not sure if it is a good cartidge or not, but it sounds pretty good to me (had it on a CS series Dual which is no longer with us).

I just want a good sounding, reliable, vibration resistant table.

Andy

[KCM]

Don't waste your money on the Music Hall or similar. I had a mmf-7 and never liked it. It isn't worth more than a couple hundred bucks once you get past the glossy finish and see the build quality and actually listen to it.

I have recently purchased a Technics 1200 and it is the real deal. Very good build quality, isolation, pitch stability, quiet background........ just has a relaxed ease to it's sound that is appreciated.

I also have a modified Lenco that is in another league, sonically. If you feel a little ambitious, that project can be accomplished for similar $$.

[scott0527]

I just want a good sounding, reliable, vibration resistant table.

Andy

Depending on what you mean by vibration resistant, the Thorens 160, 165, 145, 150 may not be for you. They are some of my favorite sounding low cost turntables but they are very prone to skipping if a little foot traffic gets near them. Obviously you can resort to fancy shelves, platforms or wall shelves but then that stuff adds to your cost.

I had an entry level ProJect a few years ago and found it very nice. It's what turned me back onto vinyl actually. Very simple, not much to go wrong with it.

The Technics may be just fine, I can't get past the hip hop looks. If I had an album playing on it, I'd feel like I'd have to flip the ball cap, toss on some bling and go give it one of those DJ scratches just because.

[3dzapper]

Where are you located Andy?

Rick

[Bill Cain]

The Technics may be just fine, I can't get past the hip hop looks. If I had an album playing on it, I'd feel like I'd have to flip the ball cap, toss on some bling and go give it one of those DJ scratches just because.

LMAO!!!!

Your Favorite Records Were Mastered On A Technics SP-02.

Now Get A Player Worthy Of The Master!

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?ranlg&1093010514 [Y]

I find "the hip hop looks" remark to be astounding. It's amazing what some folks feel the need to share.

I do feel a bit bad that I sold my matched TD-124's back in 1977 to a buddy, for $100 each. When I see what they're going for, today, I can't believe it. A little history. I bought a pair of Technics SL1500 MK2 turntables in 1977 and still have them. They have the digital readout for speed variation and worked well for me for over a decade of hard use. Except for the surface paint on the area around the tonearm being worn away, they are in perfect condition. They're in their separate roadcases, buried in my storage space, in Pittsburgh. I plan to have the exterior shells powdercoated a nice black and build a home console with my old Bozak 10-2DL. The three SL-1200's I bought around 1987 will still be playing music long after I'm gone. The reason I bought the SL-1200's was because I was building a new rig that also had two SLP-1200 CD players. Both the CD players and the turntables had the same footprint, so I can configure the main console any way I wish; for vinyl or CD's. The secondary console has three slots to accomodate whatever is not in the primary console with the mixer.

Personally, I don't think there's a better turntable value on the market than the SL-1200. eBay always has a ton being sold by wannabe DJ's who used them for a few months and are dumping them.

There's a reason the SL-1200 is the most built, most used and most copied turntable in the world; it's simply the best value for the money.

[Klipschguy]

Thank you for your insights. It sounds like Technics SL1200 is a solid unit with plenty of research and development. The weak link being the tone arm, but still a decent tonearm, nevertheless. Amazing wow & flutter + rumble specs.

$400 with shipping seems like a lot of turntable for the money.

Which cartridge would it like better: a low hours Ortofon OM30, or an unused Grado Black (which ever color is right under Gold)? I have both.

If I go used, it will probably be a Thorens. I just like the way they look - sweet.

Andy

BTW: Rick, I live in Alabama.

[Bill Cain]

If I go used, it will probably be a Thorens. I just like the way they look - sweet.

Don't forget to buy expensive cables, too. They look so kewl..... []

[scott0527]

I find "the hip hop looks" remark to be astounding. It's amazing what some folks feel the need to share.

Klipschguy asked for opinions and I gave it. What the hell good is a forum where people don't share their thoughts?

[Parrot]

Here's a good site on direct drive turntables:

http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/museum_eng.html

[Bill Cain]

I find "the hip hop looks" remark to be astounding. It's amazing what some folks feel the need to share.

Klipschguy asked for opinions and I gave it. What the hell good is a forum where people don't share their thoughts?

The Technics may be just fine, I can't get past the hip hop looks. If I had an album playing on it, I'd feel like I'd have to flip the ball cap, toss on some bling and go give it one of those DJ scratches just because.

Thank you for sharing.

There is a great reason that SL-1200 turntables will continue to be affordable. That reason in embodied in your response. Thank you for doing a great job of perpetuating negative stereotypes.

Your avatar is damn near perfect. Is that Beavis or Butthead?

[3dzapper]

"BTW: Rick, I live in Alabama"

Just a tad too far for a day trip. I could have played a few TTs mentioned here and a few more for you to audition: Bluenote, VPI HW-19, Thorens 165, Technics SL-1200 and an Empire 298.

The Grado Black is an inexpensive cart $40. The Silver is right under Gold $150. No doubt you will get what you paid for. The OM30 a $249 unit would be prefferable IMHO. I bought a Grado Platinum from a forum member a couple of years ago, not impressed. Traded it on A'gon even up for a Benz Gold to taste an MC cart. I also have a Ortofon MC20 on the VPI. Better imaging, less grainy if and tad hot.

Edit: Tad hot means that you have to run it more in a "tail low" VTA to tame the highs.

Rick

[maxg]

Whilst I have a belt drive TT I have no theoretical objection to DD units. The problem with them generally is that they need a huge amount of R&D to get them to the point where rumble is contained. Usually speed-wise they are far more accurate than belt drives - inherrent in the design.

DD became popular in the '70's. This is the era that Technics perfected their 1200 model - and spent all that money that was needed to get the unit to acceptable specs. The nice thing for a modern buyer is that all that R&D has been accounted for years ago.

All of this means that the 1200 today is a bargain, At $400 for a new one there is nothing to touch it except possibly second hand good blet drive TT's of the day - like the aforemenioned Thorens units.

Whilst ultimately the Thorens may be capable of producing better sound it is in no way a plug and play unit. It needs a lot of attention comparitively to maintain its sound quality.

Obviously there is an association with DJ's for this unit. I would not let that put you off - it is testimony to the build quality. I have seen a few "high-end" implementations of the 1200 that would amaze you (including one with an Air Tangent arm!!). That is probably a couple of steps too far but does go to show what you can do with the 1200 as a base if you really want to.

In summary:

for:

Bullet proof design.

Excellent value for money.

Legendary reliability.

Actually capable of really good sound.

Against:

DJ associations.

Sheer size of the unit.

Out of fashion drive unit design.

Up to you really.

[garymd]

If I go used, it will probably be a Thorens. I just like the way they look - sweet.

Don't forget to buy expensive cables, too. They look so kewl..... []

FYI - If you end up with a Thorens, be careful when swapping the original cheapo I/Cs. My TD165 hummed badly when I replaced the I/Cs which are soldered to the unit. It only was quiet when using the originals. I tried 3 different high-end I/Cs before giving up.

[SilverSport]

...and the reasons DJs use it is because it is near BULLETPROOF...a very nice table...thanks for writing this...I may just get this table to get back into vinyl (after giving away my B&O)

Bill

[SilverSport]

musiciansfriend.com just emailed me a $549.99 price for the SL-1200MkII...[]...that puts it a bit out of reach for me on a TT with no Cart...[]

Bill