jorjen Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I know most are probably already aware of the new larger format(1.4" like the orig.)"399" series driver from Great Plains Audio. But I just got off the phone with Bill, and there is something brand new which I for one am VERY excited about. Their new "390" driver, like the old 290 I believe. What I am so excited about is the fact that it will have a "Phenolic diaprham". Woohoo, gotta Love the cloth for mids! It will be priced the same as the 399 at about $325.00 each. These drivers may not be news to some, but I was excited to hear this and thought I would share. I have found the mid driver for my Tractrix wood horns. With adaptors of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I know most are probably already aware of the new larger format(1.4" like the orig.)"399" series driver from Great Plains Audio. But I just got off the phone with Bill, and there is something brand new which I for one am VERY excited about. Their new "390" driver, like the old 290 I believe. What I am so excited about is the fact that it will have a "Phenolic diaprham". Woohoo, gotta Love the cloth for mids! It will be priced the same as the 399 at about $325.00 each. These drivers may not be news to some, but I was excited to hear this and thought I would share. I have found the mid driver for my Tractrix wood horns. With adaptors of course! do you have a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted June 16, 2006 Author Share Posted June 16, 2006 Not on the website yet Speakerfritz. Not much yet on the 399's either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 That's HUGE news. It will be the only suitable replacement for the K-55 in the Klipschorn. True, solid response down to 350Hz. Now, if we only had an affordable tractrix with a cut-off of 200Hz. I want a big arse momma -- and I'll just toss the top hat. This makes the Jubilee a non-issue in my book. I'd rather have 350-700Hz coming from a high quality compression driver than from a bass bin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 It must just be one of those days! I'm disagreeing with Dean again! These are just our different opinions, folks. We are "divided" into 2 camps, one with a lower crossover point for bass horns, and one with a higher crossover point, like those enamored with the Jubilee... essentially it boils down to the "flavor" or nature of the sound we prefer. My opinion is that if you want realistic "punch" to your bass, that comes from the bass bin, not the midrange driver! Bottom line is: which do you think moves more air, the woofer+horn or the midrange+horn? I think most people become accustomed to what they hear the most, and come to expect that. That's all good and well. But the K33E is never going to be particularily "punchy" in the Khorn. Personally, I think the K33E is the main culprit, if you stay with it, you stay with a fairly low crossover. Even so, you can get more than enough punch out of the Khorn but you will have to switch to another driver. I've heard Khorn Klones that literally blew my socks off, with a different woofer, same 400Hz crossover point, so it's not particularily a limitation of the Khorn design! But once you hear something else, things change. I'll never go back to a lower crossover point if I could help it. It's far better and realistic bass reproduction with a higher crossover point. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Dean, " That's HUGE news. It will be the only suitable replacement for the K-55 in the Klipschorn." I have some 'Altec' 1" drivers (they are University rebadges I think) that would likely screw right into the K400 that are phenolic diaphragmed. Haven't tried them yet though so I'm not sure what their low end is but considering speech applications I think they would be fine. They are bullhorn/paging drivers though... just like the K55. Basically like these: http://cgi.ebay.com/Altec-University-Sound-Horn-Drivers-Lot-5-ID60CT-60-W_W0QQitemZ9741993329QQcategoryZ73372QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem But with an adapter screwed onto the mouth to match up with Altec 2 bolt horns. I'll take some pics if you like. A 288 would also go plenty deep enough for a K'Horn on a suitable horn too BTW. 902s will get down there too pretty well for most people. The problem with the phenolic diaphragmed stuff is the limits on the top end. The 290 drops out around 4kHz according to what I have read. Never tested one though. A 288 OTOH makes it to 8kHz or 10kHz easy. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 "Bottom line is: which do you think moves more air, the woofer+horn or the midrange+horn?" If they are playing at the same frequency and SPL? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 It must just be one of those days! I'm disagreeing with Dean again! These are just our different opinions, folks. We are "divided" into 2 camps, one with a lower crossover point for bass horns, and one with a higher crossover point, like those enamored with the Jubilee... essentially it boils down to the "flavor" or nature of the sound we prefer. My opinion is that if you want realistic "punch" to your bass, that comes from the bass bin, not the midrange driver! Bottom line is: which do you think moves more air, the woofer+horn or the midrange+horn? I think most people become accustomed to what they hear the most, and come to expect that. That's all good and well. But the K33E is never going to be particularily "punchy" in the Khorn. Personally, I think the K33E is the main culprit, if you stay with it, you stay with a fairly low crossover. Even so, you can get more than enough punch out of the Khorn but you will have to switch to another driver. I've heard Khorn Klones that literally blew my socks off, with a different woofer, same 400Hz crossover point, so it's not particularily a limitation of the Khorn design! But once you hear something else, things change. I'll never go back to a lower crossover point if I could help it. It's far better and realistic bass reproduction with a higher crossover point. Dana Dana, After living with my system for 6 months now I tend to agree on that punch factor. I have formed the impression due to the various level controls in my biamped system allowing me to voice the system vs a manufactured speaker with its passive set at the factory.Adjusting the Rane's bass levels 1 or 2 db can greatly impact the energy and impression of punch.I am not in any high or low x-over camp yet.I cross at 400hz but occasionally set it to 500hz.My impression is that the bass can really impact the midrange and that they work together to give that sense of impact and definition.Get the bass wrong and it screws up the mids ie loss of transparency,clarity,focus,impact and so forth.I do think we have preferences and need to listen to various configurations to find them. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 If they are playing at the same frequency and SPL?lol, I was thinking the same thing. If they are the same, then they are moving the same amount of air. Really, it just changes up the signature, and presents the sound differently. I was thinking about those musical instrument charts, and where things fall. I don't consider 350 to 700 to have much if anything to do with bass/midbass, I mean -- that's midrange territory. I definitely agree that a lot of this has to do with what one is used too, and how well they can make adjustments to changes in the way the sound is presented. I think I've decided that I don't do well in this area -- I have strong ideas set in my mind about what sounds "right", and once things move too far outside of those boundaries I can't relax and just listen to the music -- spending the time instead listening to the drivers/speakers. That is, my attention is drawn away from the music, the listening session just becomes a time of being taken from one distraction to another. I didn't realize the 290 only went to 4kHz -- that's utterly depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Ti 'd rather have 350-700Hz coming from a high quality compression driver than from a bass bin! You got it Brother .... those freq's DON"T belong in the Bin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 350 Hz ...ain't Bass yes, the 288, 290, et all, has a heavy diaphram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 That's just the way I always thought about it, even before I came to the horn world -- get away from the big driver as fast as you can. Shawn, all the data sheets I pull up on the various iterations of the 290 show responses out to 7-8kHz. OTOH, all of the recommended crossover points are at 500, which makes me wonder if they don't really go as low as the 288's -- now that would really suck. Whaddya think Duke, know anything good about the 290 -- like, where she sits at 400Hz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Shawn, I see where you're going, but it's sort of a moot point, because you don't want the same SPL and freq coming out of the bass horn and the midrange at the same time. You want to specifically prevent that from happening, of course. It boils down to diaphragm excursion and overall mouth area of the horns in question. You are assuming that the volume of air moved is the same for the same SPL, technically the case. But within that, it is the size of the sheet of air that is moving and how far it moves that matters, even for the same frequency. Same SPL can be acheived one way or the other, but which one will have less distortion? The acoustical power is the same in both the large area/small movement and small area/large movement examples of equal SPL and frequency, it is just distributed differently as indicated by higher or lower distortion, comparitively. I'll take the route with the least distortion. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 "My opinion is that if you want realistic "punch" to your bass, that comes from the bass bin, not the midrange driver! Bottom line is: which do you think moves more air, the woofer+horn or the midrange+horn?" At a given distance, for the same SPL (say 100dB at a meter), a midrange producing a 400Hz signal moves the SAME amount of air as a woofer at 30Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I have some 290 E's ... they have 16 ohm dia's in them ... I'm not sure which model they were for ..... let me se if we ever tested these ......[:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 It must just be one of those days! I'm disagreeing with Dean again! These are just our different opinions, folks. We are "divided" into 2 camps, one with a lower crossover point for bass horns, and one with a higher crossover point, like those enamored with the Jubilee... essentially it boils down to the "flavor" or nature of the sound we prefer. My opinion is that if you want realistic "punch" to your bass, that comes from the bass bin, not the midrange driver! Bottom line is: which do you think moves more air, the woofer+horn or the midrange+horn? I think most people become accustomed to what they hear the most, and come to expect that. That's all good and well. But the K33E is never going to be particularily "punchy" in the Khorn. Personally, I think the K33E is the main culprit, if you stay with it, you stay with a fairly low crossover. Even so, you can get more than enough punch out of the Khorn but you will have to switch to another driver. I've heard Khorn Klones that literally blew my socks off, with a different woofer, same 400Hz crossover point, so it's not particularily a limitation of the Khorn design! But once you hear something else, things change. I'll never go back to a lower crossover point if I could help it. It's far better and realistic bass reproduction with a higher crossover point. Dana Dana, Was the Klone a late model Speakerlab like I have? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 "My opinion is that if you want realistic "punch" to your bass, that comes from the bass bin, not the midrange driver! Bottom line is: which do you think moves more air, the woofer+horn or the midrange+horn?" At a given distance, for the same SPL (say 100dB at a meter), a midrange producing a 400Hz signal moves the SAME amount of air as a woofer at 30Hz. Technically, but the acoustical power is spread out differently with a large area/small amplitude vs. a small area/high amplitude (I'm thinking horn mouths, as examples) and that is indicated by distortion. Perhaps I should have said "moves larger air less" rather than "moves more air". Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Chris, it was indeed a Speakerlab K, in the late 70's. It used the typical 8 Ohm Speakerlab driver available at the time (a WP1505 or something like that), but it was the most astonishing bass I have ever heard. Since the SL-K was a virtual knockoff of the Klipschorn right down to the 3" wide slot, clearly a real Khorn cab can do that too, given the right driver and the right room. I haven't actually heard bass like it on anything else, either! It could have been a perfect setup or a happy accident that they perfomed so well in that living room, who knows... But I'll never forget that experience. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I think I see where Dana is coming from. Say you have a 5" woofer, 8" woofer and 15" woofer, all in their own properly tuned cabinets, and you put 30Hz through them at 90dB @ 1m, the 15" woofer is going to still sound bigger, more natural because it is more capable of reproducing that 30Hz at 90dB with less movement, less distortion and the full fundamentals of that frequency intact. The smaller drivers will have to move more and will not be able to acurately reproduce the fundamentals, but will produce more distortion and harmonics of the original frequency. The smaller drivers will have less "body" to them and not sound as natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 I wouldn't say ..."more body" ... but surely more I.M. distortion, due to excursion .... EDIT .. I guess I didn't read carefully, Chopsy .... sorry, you are certainly correct .....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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