Separates vs. Denon 3806

[skonopa]

EAR,

My budget for now is probably around $1200 - $1400.

...

I want the HT upgrade over what I currently have, but also want my Forte's to sing when I am in 2 channel audio. Sounds like your vote would be to go for the separates, am I right?

Yes, getting a high-end set of seperates would be nice. However, given your budget and what you want to do, I think gettting the Denon AVR3806 with a seperate 2-channel amp would be probably be your best fit at this time. That will give your upgrade to a full Dobly-Digital home theater, but allow still allow those Forte's to really sing in 2-channel. You can always add additional amps in the future to power the rest of your setup, (i'd suggest the center next).

I have an older Denon AVR3802 pair with a B&K Reference 200.7 amp going into to a set of RF-7s (with matching center and surrounds), and believe me, this thing will friggan take the fur off a cat if played too loud! The Denon will make a superb pre/pro, and as far as amp choices go, I am personally partial to B&K, but other folks suggested some other good brands, such as the Rotel, Anthem, and so forth. I guess you'll just have to try to listen as well as see what kind of deals you can scare up.

[Steve Donalson]

I'm currently running a 3806 with an Aragon 2007. The processing in the 3806 is very nice. The DAC's being used are not the best of the best, but they are a higher end Burr-Brown. The noise floor is below that of a cd. In Pure Direct mode....it's hard to best it for 2 channel performance, imo. I'm running RF-7, RC-7, RS-7 and RB-25 in back along with an RSW-15.

I was running a 3805 prior and added the 2007. There was quite a difference when I added the amp. So, my recommendation would be to add an outboard amp, but not necessarily right now. Use the AVR and then add the amp. Then you will be able to appreciate what a quality, high current, outboard amp can...will...do for your system.

Another option would be to look at the used market. For roughly what you will pick up a 3806 for, you may be able to get an Aragon Soundstage in place of. Granted this is a pre-pro and you will need a multi-channel amp, but I think you would find it exceed the performance of just about everything listed especially in the 2 channel realm. The analog 2 channel pre-amp section in the Soundstage, and Stage One, is based off the Aurum pre-amp (one of the highest regarded analog 2 channel pre-amps produced).

[Speedball]

........... you may be able to get an Aragon Soundstage in place of. Granted this is a pre-pro and you will need a multi-channel amp, but I think you would find it exceed the performance of just about everything listed especially in the 2 channel realm. The analog 2 channel pre-amp section in the Soundstage, and Stage One, is based off the Aurum pre-amp (one of the highest regarded analog 2 channel pre-amps produced).

Wow, I have wondered how two channel would be with a "Pre-pro" for two channel only.......sounds like they do pretty good. When I added a seperate amp to my Denon stereo receiver it made a huge difference and it is only twenty watts more.

[fgarib]

Forte2me,

I've been following this thread for a few days, and wish you the absolute best in your purchase.

I just had a veeeeeery small suggestion for you. Following the direction this thread is taking, it kind of sounds to me like you're starting to get convinced that separates is the way to go, but you don't have the money at this point, so you may be compromising at this point by buying used off of audiogon, ebay and the like and perhaps not getting exactly what you want.

My sincerest suggestion to you is this: WAIT. Save up, and get EXACTLY what you want. Otherwise, there's always the chance that you'd be watching the latest dvd with beer in hand on your 3806, and in the back of your mind, just before you fall asleep, something would pinch about how you could have gotten separate components... "Man oh man, does this Denon sound gooood!! but... err... perhaps the Rotel pre / pro.. could it be better than this?!?!"

We've all been through it... you're slightly more prone to it, because you're getting a ton of advice to go both ways.

I now know that the only purchase that I've made that I know for a fact that I won't even THINK about changing for the next MANY MANY years is my Lexicon MC-8 pre / pro. And that is only because of the fact that I had been wanting that darn thing for over a year before I had finally saved up enough to buy it. Now I'm sure the Anthem is an exciting piece, and the Mark Levinson would be a wonderful addition to my HT, but to my mind, this was EXACTLY what I wanted and it ended up being EXACTLY what I bought.

Just my 2 cents... Good luck, whatever you decide. Should you decide to go Lexicon, start saving now!!! They're great units!!

-Fauzi

[darkraver]

Friends,

An additional power amp for the fronts does not only work well with Denon receivers, believe me :)

I have the RXV2600 and for the RF7 I use a Yamaha MX Power Amp and the difference sure is huge.

By adding an additional power amp you will give any receiver (in this receiver price range) more air to breath. If the fronts do not need to be powered more power is available for the rest of the speakers in the system which are most of the time even smaller than the fronts so easier to drive, so you are helping your receiver a lot !!

More power, more bass performance and your system will never shut down and you do not need to be scared for low impendance loads, cause if an additional power amp does not work what then ? (except for calling Israely Air Force to buzz your receiver and fly home again safely, you do not need a radar invisable stealth fighter, they proved it ghe ghe ghe -)

I am considering to replace the MX Power Amp ( for the RF7 ) by a more powerful PA Amp.

Regards from a warm Europe,

Marcel

[Forte2me]

Ok guys, I have thought this one through long enough and am ready to get off the fence and do something, which also just happens to reactivate this thread! Thanks to all of you who have offered good advice, and have been very patient with a less-than-audiofile who is trying to make the move to hear sound closer to how it was meant to be heard, realizing it is a moving target as the higher frequency retention of my own ear is going the opposite direction (any of you also cup your hands behind your ears when listening to HT so you can catch all the high end? Drives my wife and kids nuts). Yes, I am 43.

I made a decision to buy an outboard amp to drive my Forte ll's with a Denon 3806. Yesterday I purchased a Denon POA 2400 amp (1988, dual monoblock, torodial, 200 watts x 2, Class A) on ebay for around $380.00 incl shipping. Now before you all go Anthem, Rotel, Adcom, Outlaw or B&K on me, you should know that there is a confidence factor with denon amps and my speakers, vs. unchartered waters on another brand with so many mixed comments on what sounds good with Heritage speakers and what doesn't. Plus, for the money I am into a pretty good amp which I think will make them sing. I haven't ordered the 3806 yet, I plan on playing with the 2400 behind another Denon I have with preouts for a few days first. I'll let you know how things sound. For now I get to play the waiting game until it arrives...

[Speedball]

Good Luck with that......[]

[Forte2me]

Hi guys. I received the Denon POA 2400 amp awhile back and have been hesitant to report my findings because I am not hearing what I thought I would.

First of all, the amp arrived in pristine condition and looks brand new. It arrived in it's original box with the molded styro packing ends and manual. All lights and switches perform flawlessly. The owner said he had owned it for 15 years and I give him a perfect 10 for it's care.

It was like Christmas morning. I hooked it up to my Denon DRA 435 receiver with pre-outs and gave it a test run on some audio CDs. There was more high end, there was more midrange, there seemed to be more 'soundstage' if you will across the room, more of a convincing feeling that someone was performing in front of you - well, almost. The bass was notably absent. I thought I would really be moving some air with the 12in / 15in combo of my Forte ll's, that I would be feeling it right in my gut. No dice. NOTE: the tone controls of my my 435 when used as a preamp had no effect on the sound coming out. I could not boost or cut anything. The loudness button also had no effect, so I could not boost the low end.

I then hooked my CD player directly into the back of the amp, using the line levels in the front of the amp as volume controls. I liked the sound better, but still to my amazement the bass I expected to hear failed to show up, even on the tracks where I knew there was some great bass (Eagles' Hell Freezes Over - Hotel California after the beginning guitar).

I tried both combos with some DVD movies and again found that my no-need-for-a-sub Forte ll's sounded like they definately needed a sub.

Just to make sure I wasn't crazy, I hooked the DRA 435 back up on its own (NO Denon 2400 amp this time) and there was the bass I had been missing. Guys, my 435 has 55 watts/channel. The 435 is now running my system, the POA 2400 is back in the box.

What gives? Reviews on this amp say that the bass management is awesome. Do you think I have a bad amp, or is it OK and I am just not hearing how it should sound because I don't have a good quality preamp in front of it?

I have not yet purchased the AVR 3806, but when you use an outboard amp behind it for the mains, are the tone contols ineffective on the outboard amp? (I normally run tone controls top dead center, with the loudness button in. I just tried to boost the bass in this case and found I couldn't.

I am a little frustrated here. Appreciate your comments.

[easylistener]

This is a tough one for me to help you with. I have no experience with the amp you are trying. I do have a 4802 denon and have ran outboard amps with it and there has been a big improvement in sound. I have always used differnt amps like Rotel and Audire. I think you need some that has had this set up to help you. I would not give up. Where do you live? There are many people on this forum that would bring there amps over to your house for you to listen to the improvment.

[Arky]

I am considering to replace the MX Power Amp ( for the RF7 ) by a more powerful PA Amp.

Regards from a warm Europe,

Marcel

You might want to look at the QSC plx-2402

[Speedball]

Mmmmm,

With my Rf7's and a 100 watt Denon receiver sound ok at lower volumes but when the 120 watt seperate Sonographe amp was hooked up.......big improvement. Also borrowed a 250 watt Carver with an even bigger improvement. I would really love to try the QSC mentioned above.......[]

Maybe you have a bad amp? ......or that Denon amp is not so good?

[Forte2me]

I guess may main questions are these:

1) Is there a possibility the amp is fine, and I am missing the low end because I am using an older Denon DRA 435 receiver as a preamp through the pre-out jacks, and the tone controls via this setup appear to be ineffective? Obviously this would not happen with a regular high quality preamp. Or would this have little bearing on the low end of the amplifier and if it was in good shape I would hear the bass now?

2) If the amp was fine, shouldn't I hear the full range of sound including great low end when I hooked up my cd player direct to the amp, or is this also not giving me the full range of sound because I am not using a pre-amp?

3) Those of you that operate a Denon AVR receiver like the 3806 with an external amp for the mains, are your tone controls on the 3806 effective on the outboard amp?

Sorry if this is elementary, I could really use your input as this is my first experience with a separate amp. I pulled the cover off the Denon 2400 amp and I don't see any evidence of blown circuits, all fuses are intact, just some accumulated dust.

I don't want to sent this back if it is just that I am not using it correctly. All I know is that right now under these conditions I have more low end with the 55 watt receiver above than I do coming out of the POA 2400 when it is hooked up.

[DrWho]

1) What do things sound like with the DRA 435 reciever when you set the tone controls to flat?

2) This will depend on the output impedance of the CD player and the

input impedance of the amplifier. An impedance mismatch can cause a

severe reduction in bass output (you could be having the same issue

with your old reciever too).

3) I have used an AVR-87, AVR-1803, AVR-3300 and a few others at the

homes of other people and the tone controls all affect the preamp

outputs.

Just for the sake of experimentation try unplugging one of your

speakers and listen to some bass heavy material. Does the bass come

back? If so, then you've got polarity issues. If not, then try

switching to the other speaker. If both speakers sound mostly the same

then it's probably not anything in the independant amplification stages

of the amp (very rarely do things break on both channels in the exact

same way).

Try cranking the volume a bit (again with bass heavy material). Do you

notice any distortion? Klipsch speakers are pretty efficient so you'll

have to crank it to earbleeding levels. If you hear any distortion be

sure to bring the volume down real fast. You'll be listening for pop

sounds when low notes hit. I wonder if maybe there are issues in the

power supply.

I too am a huge fan of the Denon recievers, mostly for their preamp

sections. If you like the Denon sound then this is probably one of the

biggest reasons why. But as far as amplification Denon is nowhere near

my favorite. There are plenty of amplifier options out there that will

sound much better and cost much less. So though I'd hate to say it, if

basic troubleshooting results in a crap sound from the POA 2400, then

perhaps it's just a bad amp...[]

If/when you get an AVR-3806 I would try listening to your speakers on

its own amplification before messing around with any outboard amps. You

might be surprised how good it sounds with music.

[Forte2me]

Dr. Who:

I normally listen to the DRA 435 on its own with tone controls flat and loudness button in. Sounds great with my speakers. However, when I use it as a preamp for the POA 2400, the tone controls suddenly have no effect on the sound. No difference with loudness in or out, cannot boost or cut treble or bass. That's why I'm wondering if it is just the preamp part of the DRA 435 that is not allowing the 2400 to do it's work when they are hooked together, or if this 2400 is a bad amp. Checked my theorey by hooking up the Cd player directly, but still didn't hear a bass improvement. Also, I noticed when I was using the 435 as a preamp, it was putting out quite a bit of heat over the heat sink, even though the amp section of it wasn't being used since the 2400 was handling the amplification. I thought this was a little strange, but maybe this is normal, I don't know. On the other hand, I cannot heat the 2400 up, even after playing it loud for awhile. Don't get me wrong, with the 2400 in line the db's could very easily drive you out of the house, and I hear no distortion. I just don't hear the bass I know that I should with this amp and my speakers, like I said - in a side by side, the 55 watt DRA 435 wins. Speakers are connected correctly, already checked that. This 2400 is 200 watts/side, I should be shaking the walls at higher volume, shouldn't I?

[SamS]

Loudness button. Bingo, that's your problem.

Although tone controls should work with external amps, that might not be the case here. Back to the problem... your loudness button is giving you the bass that you like. When the amp is hooked up, you're simply hearing things "flat". It's understandable that you don't like the sound, after all, you've been listening all these years with boosted bass.

[DrWho]

The difference between 50 and 200 watts is only 6dB max (assuming no

power compression which will be present at those levels - so more like

4 or 5 db).

The sensitivity on the Forte II is 99dB:

http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=117&s=specs

So you're only pushing 1W of power with 99dB of output (that's fricken

loud). So to really get the amps working you'll have to crank it up to

something like 114dB. Your wife will want to kill you at those volumes

[]

As far as the head is concerned...all class A amps draw a ton of

current at idle (instead of the current going to the speaker, it runs

around inside the amp). Your old reciever is probably class A. It does

seem strange that your POA doesn't run hot though....because it should.

(but the louder you run it, the cooler it should be).

Another side effect is that better amps usually have larger damping

factors - which can sometimes be percieved as less bass because the

woofer is flopping around less (more control from the amp). That

combined with the lack of loudness contour probably explains your

situation - you have become accustomed to a non-flat response.

Btw, did you try all my previous suggestions? They're meant for testing

very specific things and your feedback would help narrow down the issue

- though I think it's still gonna come back down to the loudness button. And the Denon 3806 isn't going to have one (as far as I know).

[Forte2me]

I pulled the cover off the POA 2400 last night and cleaned the dust off everything. I realized my Denon 545r receiver from the bedroom also had pre-outs, so I brought it downstairs and hooked it up as a preamp with the POA 2400. Wow. Problem solved. It looks like the issue was in the pre-out section of my 435r, which doesn't matter since I moved it to the bedroom and as a receiver it is fine. The POA 2400 amp appears now to be in as good of shape sonically as it is visually. I spent 3 hours last night reviewing my CD collection - amazing clarity and detail throughout the whole range. Teams very well with my speakers to deliver a soundstage that is convincingly realistic. You close your eyes and it feels like someone is performing in the room with you - you realize the sound is coming from in front of you, but it was a neat experience to have the room fill with sound much more than I was used to. My wife and kids were upstairs asleep for the last hour so I couldn't get too carried away with the volume, but I am looking forward to pushing it a little more during daylight hours in the next few days.

I think I am going to hook up my turntable tonight and listen to some old vinyl just for fun. My plan is to order the 3806 probably next week, and then plug this baby in behind it. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for all the input. That was a close call, I almost sent this amp back to the seller.