djk Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Posted by djk ( M ) on May 29, 2003 at 18:05:52 In Reply to: LS autotransformer posted by mr.x on May 29, 2003 at 09:31:48: This is the part # from Eminence, the makers of the speaker. Note that the K33E has a longer x-max than a JBL2226, and as a direct radiator is 101dB/2.83V/1M SPEC 15162 PART # K-33 RE OHMS 3.39 FS HZ 34.46 LE MH .96 MMS GMS 78.59 QM 7.39 CMS mm/N .2714 QE .410 RMS NS/M 2.3037 QT .390 VAS LTRS 301.66 XMAX MM 8.20 SD SCM 889.59 BL TM 11.88 EBP 84.4 EFF % 2.91 SPL dB 96.6 Autoformer: Universal Transformer #3619 P.O. Box 472 Farmersville, TX 75442 972 784-7700 voice 972 782-7000 fax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 FS HZ 34.46 QT .390 Ah, that's better. That puts fHM at 177 Hz, as indicated by D-MAN in post 753043. Is there a complete list of TS parameters for Klipsch woofers available anywhere? Thanks, Edgar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted June 24, 2006 Author Share Posted June 24, 2006 This is the part # from Eminence, the makers of the speaker. Note that the K33E has a longer x-max than a JBL2226, and as a direct radiator is 101dB/2.83V/1M By the way, according to the TS numbers that I have, the JBL G135 (not G135A) would be a good substitute for the K33E, at least in terms of the required back-volume, throat area, and fHM. I have no idea about availability. Edgar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Hi Mike and Hi Gil, Wow! Gil, what you said is correct but there are some other things going on in addition to what you have said. 3) Drivers used on horns have decreasing output as frequency goes up, just as Keele says. You see this when driver response on a plane wave tube is shown (about 3 kHz. But very often the response is shown on a horn with that increasing on axis gain.. You can see this as well in the nearfield. the bottom end is limited by an inefficient magnetic gap at low freqs. the high end is limited by decoupling of the suspension and diap breakup. and throw in a rising impedance response and you have the makings of a headache in trying to keep a driver "flat" in the far field! 7) You see the 9 kHz "glitch" in the K-55. It may be diaphragm break up. It is about, say 15 dB down without the horn. But the horn has so much on axis gain it is can be heard. It may be that something similar is happening in the Jubilee. So it is necessary to eventually have a steep electrical filter. in the case of the 55, it the phase plug. it has path length differences that cause a notch at 9kHz. but in most cases diap breakup contributes to peaks and dips at the top end. it's just that phase plugs are "little horns" in and of themselves. 8) The K-Horn is probably lossy at 400 Hz and above due to the second section where the path flips from horizontal to the vertical. However the real problem may be that final sections face away from the front axis and there is little gain at 400 Hz and above. If you look at the AES paper on the Jubilee, the design evolution is to have the final flares face more forward. Hence rising gain. in the case of the khorn, it is mostly due to path length differences that cause the horn to roll off at 400. another engineer at klipsch, took on the job of taking a khorn lf and making a straight horn (without any bends) of it. he measured the freq and it was surprising. it goes up pretty high (800-900 hz if memory serves). in the jub, we paid alot of attention to the folds trying to make sure that the path length differences were above 1kHz. in addition, we kept the splay angle between the two mouths small, in a sense arraying both mouths to keep the overlap spl up. ultimately, keeping up with all these gremlins is what makes this fun and challenging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 7) You see the 9 kHz "glitch" in the K-55. It may be diaphragm break up. It is about, say 15 dB down without the horn. But the horn has so much on axis gain it is can be heard. It may be that something similar is happening in the Jubilee. So it is necessary to eventually have a steep electrical filter. in the case of the 55, it the phase plug. it has path length differences that cause a notch at 9kHz. but in most cases diap breakup contributes to peaks and dips at the top end. it's just that phase plugs are "little horns" in and of themselves. If it's the phase plug, then why does it show up in some drivers and not in others? Or is that a limitation of the measuring? I also believe the Cornwall I that Trey measured in the chamber had the problem at 8kHz? I don't keep up with all the crazy variations in drivers so maybe that's the reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Hey Mike See the test I did on the various K55 drivers I did with ETF and you will see with some varition due to Phase Plug Differences and Contruction that all of them do have the dip and then rise in response with some variation in frequencies involved but it is in the design limitations of these drivers. I believe it is common to all the K55 drivers by design! http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/2/733256/ShowThread.aspx#733256 DR WHO I was glad to meet you in Hope. I'm the Mike from Tennessee if you remember. mike[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Hey Miketen and Dr. Mike, All the different 55's had some variation in the phaseplugs but as to the chamber causing something at 8kHz, that is very unlikely. It likely due to equipment problems rather than the chamber. By the way Miketen, did chuck ever call you about the jub parts? Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Hey Miketen and Dr. Mike, All the different 55's had some variation in the phaseplugs but as to the chamber causing something at 8kHz, that is very unlikely. It likely due to equipment problems rather than the chamber. By the way Miketen, did chuck ever call you about the jub parts? Roy Hey Roy No, I've not received anymore e-mails or a call from him although I guess he is pretty busy. I did send you a copy of my only contact with him so far. Anyway hopefully soon we can get this project going!!![] mike[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Hi Roy, I heard a couple of persons in Hope mention that you were working on a passive crossover workable for Jubilee. Was wondering about your take on that so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 hey miketen, i do know that he just got back from an install in southern california. i will get him on the ball on monday and i will send you the passive schematic on monday as well. roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 hey miketen, i do know that he just got back from an install in southern california. i will get him on the ball on monday and i will send you the passive schematic on monday as well. roy [][][] Sound Good Roy!!! I work till later in the evenings so I can't read e-mails till then but Chuck can call my cell phone if he wants. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Mr. Delgado, thanks again for chiming in for all us DIY Jubilee admirers and dreamers. I have slowly collected the components I need (I even have a pair of 2404H if I cannot live with two way). Once Bdnfay posts his final notes I will go ahead and build a LF cab...still thinking about the LF driver...I am staying with an electronic crossover with delay and bi-amp (or triamp) the monster. I will post when it is done, I have some time during July and August to dedicate to this project. Regards, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Bodcaw ..... hmmmnnn ...... now that's a really small town ....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Hey Mike See the test I did on the various K55 drivers I did with ETF and you will see with some varition due to Phase Plug Differences and Contruction that all of them do have the dip and then rise in response with some variation in frequencies involved but it is in the design limitations of these drivers. I believe it is common to all the K55 drivers by design! http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/2/733256/ShowThread.aspx#733256 DR WHO I was glad to meet you in Hope. I'm the Mike from Tennessee if you remember. mike[] Ya, I remember you [] It was definetly fun to meet you too. I wonder how I missed that thread. At 20dB down (for all of them?) I wonder just how audible it is. I forget who it was that claimed 20dB was the threshold of masking. But weren't there more than just the K55V and K55M? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 Mike (DR Who) said: I wonder just how audible it is. I forget who it was that claimed 20dB was the threshold of masking.But weren't there more than just the K55V and K55M?---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, Their was a University SA-HF midrange driver and a few others that I saw at the museum used in the early years of the Khorn but the various K55 are the most common and often seen. Mike you probably already know this but: A (-20db threshold) that you could be thinking of is something I have seen often when talking about early reflections (ie: within the first 10ms to 20ms after the intial signal has arrived at the listener) from room boundaries. The goal is to have any reflections after the orginal signal at least -20db lower or delayed usually about 20msec so that the orginal signal isn't masked by early/loud early reflections. This is often called ITD (Intial Time Delay) Gap in Acoustic Room Design papers/designs. As far as in the case of the K55 and K77 trying to both reproduce the same signal with their delays due to path length differences I would listen for a lack of clarity for instruments/vocals that produce energy in the approximate 8khz to 9khz region. As far as AMPLITUDE ISSUES: I do believe this is probably a borderline audible effect in this case that a person might or might not notice due to signal content and the level differences between the K55 and K77 playing the same frequencies. Making the Squawker Filter a Bandpass circuit and Steeper Slopes as in the latest Klipsch Networks would have dealt with this issue to some degree. The issue I believe to be possibly more audible is the TIME DELAY between the K55 and the K77. For example: Lets say the K55 and K77 both play a signal although the K55 might be 15db down but what if there is another signal that comes along approximately 1.7msec (Approx acoustical delay between K55 and K77 physical mounting differences) that the tweeter plays but we will also hear the earlier delayed signal from the K55 just arriving and this could cause tonal/clarity issues in my view. This is where dealing with TIME DELAY like what Roy recommends in the case of the Jubilee is the next step forward in my view. Since we are begining to see drivers and horns capable of reasonably smooth response with the addition of Digital Crossovers and Equalizers making a TWO WAY all HORN SYSTEM like the Jubilee a real advancement I believe. mike[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Hey Tony, Am interested in how it turns out for you so please keep me posted. I myself am starting on my quest of having what I have been showing (jub lf and 402/69 driver with passive network) but hopefully still be able to switch from active to passive and be able to document the difference. Mike from Tennesee also had an interesting alternative: use active delay for the hf; then feed that to a passive network for the hf. I am playing with that in my computer, to see what I get and then measure it and listen to it to see how that plays out. If you need anything, let me know. Roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Hey Tony, Am interested in how it turns out for you so please keep me posted. I myself am starting on my quest of having what I have been showing (jub lf and 402/69 driver with passive network) but hopefully still be able to switch from active to passive and be able to document the difference. Mike from Tennesee also had an interesting alternative: use active delay for the hf; then feed that to a passive network for the hf. I am playing with that in my computer, to see what I get and then measure it and listen to it to see how that plays out. If you need anything, let me know. Roy ps. please call me roy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 Thanks Roy, Mike's idea is indeed interesting. However I love the new toy I have, a Clarity DEQX. (check it out at www.deqx.com) It allows me to perform a bunch of manipulations in the time, phase and frequency domain. As you can imagine, it takes a while to crawl up the learning curve but I am pusinhg forward using my stock klipschorn and three stereo amps as a test mule. I will probably stay iwth that unit instead of a pssive but will watch other's activities with greta interest. I will certainly keep you updated as I build the jub bass bin and begin to fool with the HF section. best regards, Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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