kaiser SET say Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Ronnie JAMES Dio[] I would love to have a brew or two and listen to some of your experiences Duke as I can tell you have seen or been part of a few[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 well, Mr. Kaiser .... it's Simply .......Timing....and ...Location while I missed the "Summer of Love".... Woodstock, NY ...in '69... i was fortunate enuff to be young and fully involved in the music industry, very shortly thereafter.... back in the '70's, ..we could gas up at 20 cent's a gallon, $1.09 a six pack ....Ok, Ok ....probably cost $12 in BEER ......and drive the 360 mi. to NYC Atlantic Record's was, back then, at 1841 Broadway .. ifn' you were nice to the girl at reception, you could get in, sit in the Reception Area, and listen to what was being recorded .... ya know ... ton's a great bands were on Atlantic Record's, then .... Ahmet Ertgun's ...father was in charge, .....[] very Nice people.... no Record Company Attitude I also worked at a small Studio in Rush, NY...Upstate..Jerris Productions that specialized in radio Commercial's and Mixdown....for well connected Artist's did lotsa stuff, Robert Plant, Cactus, Jeff Beck .......Yum ... I got to do Sound many, many places, Concert's, Event's .. yea ..state fair's ......NY, thru the Mid-West... 'cause, it was a small industry back then.......them Big production companie's ...Clair Bros Sound, Meyer Sound...probably just starting .... I built P.A. cab's ....a lot of them .. Jensen's for speak's, in Custom ....Horn Loaded Cab's......[] probably Bad Science that I used for Design, tho ......[] built the Entire PA for the band "Lighthouse"... oh... maybe 'round 1974 .... then ... WhirlWind Audio .. pushed all us small guy's outta biz in Rochester, NY Merlin speakers... still made in Hemlock, NY.. kinda fallout from that, still in Biz ..tho .... Played out for many years, doin' the Holiday Inn/ College circut.... got's lotsa pointers from semi-famous guy's .....recording stuff ..as to my guitar playing ... Brad Gillis, Werner Fritchings yea.. Jeff Beck.. but... things were different,..... small, close industry back then ... some local friends went on to Fame .. well, for an Album, anyway's ... Mike Marconi... Alice Cooper, for an album .. /Billion Dollar Babies Donny Maracle ... Duke Jupiter Ronnie Dio...from Elf .to Deep Purple , Dio, et al Brad Gillis ... Night Ranger Werner Fritchings... Cactus, W/ Tim Bogert/ Carmine Appice Dave Angelico, ....Texas Son al Bruno ... the infamous " BUZZO " ..( a local joke here ) i guess I'd be remiss, if I didn't bring up Lou Gramm..(Grammatico) of .. Foreigner .....tho we all hated that band... not a real friend, Big ...Big Attitude....[:|] jammed a lot of times with his brother, Dave... decent guitar player Saaay ...Werner, basically helped me get my lick's down on guitar ... a friend's father, was General Manager of the War Memorial Stadium ... so ... I got to do ton's of Sound Reinforcement .... Timing ... that's all.. was doin' sound at Watkin's Glen Raceway, when the infamous .Bus .. got burned in the " Bog "......[]...[]...[]...[] Nekked Wimmen, too.. there... back then ... Hippie's ....[] Aaaahh ... thassa 'nuff , for now .... I'm still a child of the'50's .... came of of age in the '70's ..... not old enuff for Woodstock .....by just a couple years .....[] I wonder if kid's Who's age ..... can get the same Experiences ......[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Woooo Hoooo ....... Loooong ... Duke post, Eh ...??? .......[] good yarn, too... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 ..............'W/ Tim Borgert/ Carmine Appice"............. Ohoooooo Dukstir, Old V. Fudge The Break Song ??? If one looks at old flix with "big Bands".....Ever notice how BIG the Kick-Drums were? Huge! At the time, (70's) Appice used double, correct me if wrong, kicks that were maybe 4' tall. You could barely see him behind them. It was CANNON FIRE! IB Old (but still way younger than BEC)[] Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Duke, How many times did you run into 2.5W SET amps in your music adventures? Surely all the bands wanted to sound magical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Duke, How many times did you run into 2.5W SET amps in your music adventures? Surely all the bands wanted to sound magical? LMAO! What a master baiter you are! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Hmmmmnnnnnn..... Parrot ....... after carefull recollection...... most everything we used back then for P.A. ...was PP Marshall PA .., actually, a Super Lead 100 watt w/ 6 input's /// EL 34 based the infamous Hi-Watt ... EL-34 based Fender ... a Showman amp, set up for PA, again, 6 mic input's...on a basically Guitar amp...6L6 based then.... there was the Marshall " Major " ..... the " PIG " .... as it was affectionately called ... 200w RMS, 100 #...try carrying that Head... ! they tested closer to an honest 300 wrms again, I recall 6550 based...8 of them .....! Ampeg SVT.... 6550's ... again .... Sunn .....6L6, or 6550's but no SS , except in your Altec, or EV mixer ... all of probably 6, or 8 channels...... all tube ...unless you had a Vox, or Standel amp ..... pure SS Crap ....at that time S.E.T. ...... hmmnnnn....... was for ... Table Radio's .........[]....[]....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Crap ..... where's ... Dodger ...... he was on top of this stuff here, in Rochester , .too ......[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 The Marantz 9.. one of the nicer returns on investment in audio. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160035841317 yet, I will venture some will still prefer 2A3 SET when paired with a Cornwall or K-horn.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted October 3, 2006 Author Share Posted October 3, 2006 Glad to see this thread is still kicking. INTRO Well, as you know I decided to put the SETs away for the last three weeks of September to give the old SS (Pioneer SA 6500) a fair and balanced evaluation. The Pioneer is a 60W integrated amp from the seventies; the time when records were king (and phono EQs were finely designed) and when all the electronics were discrete components - no ICs; just resistors, caps, and transistors on big boards. This equipment is from 30 years ago Im reminded how long ago by the fact that my spelling checker flagged phono as an unknown word! <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> SPACE In the big 20x20x9 room I listened to the table playing records into the Pioneer on to the LaScalas in the front corners. CONTENT Here is what I played: Saint Saens (Cont. in A Minor for Cello, Mstislav Rostropovich\Russian Import)) Shostakovich (5th Symphony, Bernstein\NY Philharmonic 1959) The Amazing String Band 38 Special Reuben and the Jets (Frank Zappa) F2- RAJTs King Crimson (Lizard) King Crimson (Larks Tongue in Aspic) King Crimson (Red) Belafonte at Carnegie Halliburton The Velvet Underground (Loaded) SUMMARY This looks like a short list for three weeks. I quit listening over a week ago GENERAL COMPARISONS With the SETs I normally start anticipating listening to music each afternoon as I tie things down at work for the next day. Then I race home and listen for a few hours. With the old SS, not only was this feeling gone during this test period; I actually listened very little. The amount listened during the whole three week period was equivalent to what I normally listen in about four days. With the SETs, I cant do anything else when the music is playing the intimacy draws me in to just sit and concentrate on the music. With the SS, I ironed shirts, did light house cleaning, did not turn off the AC like I normally would, and listened during periods when outside noises were going on lawn mowers, etc. I never did this with the SETs. SETs always provide a sharp defined image for the source of the sounds. SS offered broad sound sources, rare realistic images, but the sound was quite good. SETs make the LaScalas disappear effortlessly. SS never did this; always sounded like a fine two channel system with speakers in the room. With SETs, records with which I am very familiar always sound great, and so do new or strange ones. With the SS, familiar records sounded flat, but unfamiliar records sounded fine!? My general feeling is that after having SETs I cannot be happy with anything else. If I had never had SETs, the SS would be fine. PARTICULARS The SETs have less bass than the SS, but SETs sound more like real bass instruments. Sometimes I thought the SS had too much bass. The SETs sound more real, the SS sounded like a real good stereo system. RECORDS I wont go into painful detail on the classical records, just to say that classical is lost on the SS. Both the Saint Saens and Shostokovich sounded horrible. I decided not to try any more classical after just these two. The St Saens is all about cello, the Shosvich has low horns and much else nothing sounded natural. The Amazing String Band sounded great for a few minutes. This is all natural instruments guitars, bass, violin, and voices nice music you would enjoy in a café on a Sunday morning. But, the vibrancy was too much, the bass was too loud in proportion, and the violin sounded off. The voices sounded pretty close to real. The longer I listened the more the exaggerated sounds bugged me. I got up to make sure the loudness switch was bypassed it was. Most casual listeners would think this recording was fantastic. 38 Special sounded just right on the SS! Hang on Loosely and Fantasy Girl are a couple of my favorites cause I played these in one of my old bands. While listening to this record I was thinking this record was made to be played on SS it really sounded excellent. This band plays with two drummers and four guitar players, and their singing is heavily layered and well done. The Pioneer really liked the density of the sound. The bass level was correct, the impact and dynamics was great. If I was trying to sell the Pioneer I would put on 38 Special and crank it up guaranteed sale, no question. There must be some peculiar perfect convergence between the Pioneer and this record because it really sounded excellent and outstanding. This is also an incredibly clean and quiet record even at loud volume the empty grooves between songs were dead silent. The SSs success with this record may be due to the way it was engineered and manufactured, whatever I cant really express how great this record sounded on the Pioneer. Reuben and the Jets is a unique Zappa album. It is a collection of do-wap 50s sounding love songs recorded in a very strange way. The drums have a delay echo to sound as if they are playing a hop in a high school gym. At first the bass sounds thin and weak until you listen for a while. I think they patched the bass signal straight into the board for recording. Unlike a normal bass sound, there is no characteristic peaking at certain frequencies its as flat as a pancake and as you listen you surprise yourself by finding that the bass is actually firm and strong its just that you are listing too high for it its down low real low. Like one of those optical illusions where you cant see it, then after you do you cant not see it; once you know where the bass really is it is great. Anyway, the songs are quirky, some of the instruments and voices have been sped up 1/3 octave in pitch (but dont sound too weird). I like this record on the SETs I like it with the SS too, probably because of the low bass that comes through. F2-RATJs is a collection of live punk band concerts. I had never played it 30 seconds into the first song I took it off and resolved not to try it ever again. This crap would sound bad on any system. King Crimson was disappointing on the Pioneer. I have over a dozen KC albums as they are one of my favorites. After the success of the 38 Special I hoped that the frequent density of King Crimson music would please me on the SS. Sadly, not so. The only thing that came close is the second side of Red which I adore. This is a side long song that starts so quietly some might miss the first few minutes. Later it gets REAL LOUD. It starts off as if the guys are just fooling around setting levels and tuning in the studio before playing a song. The lack of structure continues and builds until you begin to realize this IS the song! When the drum finally enters it is clear they are going somewhere with it, and soon the themes begin to clarify and resolve. By this time its pretty loud, and by the time the thing is fully off and running the guitar is screaming, the bass is snarling, the drums are pounding, and you feel like you are at the back of the roller coaster as it accelerates over the highest peak of the track. This piece is a bit of a Rorschach test if you feel low it will validate you, and then pull you up. If you are angry it will agree with you and then show you real anger. If you are happy it will develop that feeling into bliss. I recommend listening to this piece as loud as you can enjoy it. For me, it seems to lose some of its soul on the SS, but loud volume will make up for a lot of that Belafonte at Carnegie Hall is the classic 1959 concert - RCA Victor LOC-6006 New Orthophonic High Fidelity Recording, designed for playing on the new-fangled Stereophonic machines Although there is a 47 piece orchestra, most of this record is upright bass, bongos, a pair of guitars, and Harry himself. Yeah, hes a little crazy today, but this was him at his high water mark of talent and fame. This record does sound great, I think because it is live. The idea to record it (it was a benefit concert) was a last minute thing and the engineers seem to have accidentally got it just right. When I heard him singing Cu Cu Ru Cu Cu Paloma I quit washing dishes and whet in to listen what a neat little song, I was really moved. Of course, with SETs I would never do the dishes while a record was playing The Velvet Underground was fine not my cup of tea really, but it was OK. I cleaned house and never felt the urge to sit and listen. STRANGENESS Here is something I would never have expected with the SETs, I have trouble determining just how loud I am actually playing, but with the SS I was never in doubt. Let me explain this. I listen at around 87dB most of the time with SETs, sometimes a bit louder. This tends to sound pretty loud to me. I worry about disturbing the neighbors (yeah, with my flea power SETs!). With the Pioneer I turned it up and seemed to always know just how loud it was often it was louder than I play with the SETs, yet I had the sense that the sound was contained and was certainly not loud enough to bother anyone. I cant really explain this... even with the SS turned up pretty much louder than I listen with the SETs it showed on the SPL meter at about the same level as my SET listening. In terms of playing records, the SS has a disadvantage with the handling of noises. The SS tends to provide a fairly flat field of sound with the various record noises embedded within it. I should note that my records are very clean. I noticed this difference because with the SETs the spatial imaging tends to separate the instrument sounds from the noise in space, with makes it much easier to attend to the instruments and ignore the noise. With the SS its all in the same place, so to speak more difficult to separate mentally. I have never been a believer in the rhythm-pace-timing thing, but I am beginning to understand what this might be about. I have previously held this concept in contempt as an example of goofy audiophile-speak. I still think the phrase is confused and misleading, but the sense of it is starting to get traction with me it does seem to distinguish the SET from the SS on much of what I heard. The Pioneer had a greater extension of high and low range, but this seemed to be at the expense of a subtle change in the overall balance. Some of this might just be psychological. When I hear a song I attend to particular instruments and passages in a fairly predictable way. Listening to the SS changes the focus of attention and this I think is in part what makes it sound like the balance is different, who knows? There are clear real audible difference between the SETs and SS a striking example is the leading edges of instruments sax and percussion is a good case here. I was unable to really sort this difference out. On some instruments the SS seemed to have a little more edge on the attack of some instruments, but on others there seemed to be less. This may be in part due to the attention/balance thing mentioned above. CONCLUSION Well, I did not intend to write a book when I started this, but there you go. The bottom line for me is that I must have a SET system to really enjoy music. The Pioneer is a nice amp and never did anything I would consider a form of misbehavior or express any particular striking inadequacy. On some things it sounded perfect. If I had never had a SET I might be OK or even fairly happy with it forever. But after having the SETs, I cant use it for serious listening. The SETs are truly magical and seem to love my records and LaScalas. I guess I would say that if all equipment was scaled from 0 to 100, the Pioneer is in the high 80s, but the SETs for me are in the top 90s. Keep in mind that I never put more than 1/3 watt through the LS maybe the Pioneer would open up with a direct radiator system of less efficiency in which it could really breathe I dont know based on the way it did with the 38 Special it might just be that the Pioneer really needs to be in a system where it can be cranked up needs to be in a system where it has something hard to push against to do its best. Your thoughts welcome Pauln Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Kaiser, If I ever run for president I will ask you to be my campaign manager. Thanks for that [:$] Pauln, You know - if I was going to be cruel I would say it has taken, now, 40 pages for you to prove to yourself what you already knew. I would therefore suggest a little more confidence in needed in your own decision making process [] - not that there has been much wrong with what you have done to date - just it wont be easy to repeat for all the alternative forms of amplification out there - all from different periods. The only issue I would have with your conclusions is that you do not seem to mention the phono stage anywhere. There is a givaway in the review "In terms of playing records, the SS has a disadvantage with the handling of noises." That is almost certainly down to changing the phono stage between this setup and your normal SET rig. This one may even contain filters - although it equally well may not. Other than that - you like SET - it is as good for you as you have heard to date. Nice. Just dont be too surprised if one day you hear another system that you feel expresses music in an even better way than your own and that one does not run SET. Strange things happen in the twilight zone......although it is actually just pre-dawn here - possibly for you too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Sorry - system crankier than I am this morning - ignore this double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Oh, Mr, I.B. ..... check this out ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvAOYtyqpbw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzt6PwuQA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Pauln, those old ss amplifiers suck. I've got a couple stashed away. I can't give the things away. They sound hissy, flat and boring. Maybe, the components have aged. (I thought I typed this before in this thread? Anyways, I'm not looking through 40 pages to find out) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Dukester.......Cactus......Now yer talkin'...Bro. Bill.......Great Band.....Rusty Day on guitar wasn't it? Tim Bogart, Carmine Appice.....Great Rhythm section.......ELF before Rainbow.......Did you meet Jeff Beck?...........ooops what am I doing on thist thread... How people power their set-ups has nothing to do with me.........Going to check out SET's and Khorns in Utica,N.Y. this week, to hear for myself.........having been leaning in the Outlaw Audio way to power my system......still trying to decide....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 I've heard some good things about Outlaw, youngbuckster... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Pauln, those old ss amplifiers suck. I've got a couple stashed away. I can't give the things away. They sound hissy, flat and boring. Maybe, the componenets have aged. (I thought I typed this before in this thread? Anyways, I'm not looking through 40 pages to find out) edwinr.........What are you sittin' on for equipment? Can't give them away? I doubt that.....hissy, flat, and boring........Have I met you? You could be describin' Me.......[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 The bottom line for me is that I must have a SET system to really enjoy music. The Pioneer is a nice amp and never did anything I would consider a form of misbehavior or express any particular striking inadequacy. On some things it sounded perfect. If I had never had a SET I might be OK or even fairly happy with it forever. But after having the SETs, I cant use it for serious listening. The SETs are truly magical and seem to love my records and LaScalas. Anyone is welcome to have a personal opinion. But since it is personal, it doesn't necessarily apply to others. Someone else might relate, others not. It doesn't prove anything; it's just anecdotal. I think of your situation as extraordinarily limited. An analogy might be made to a guy who could be happy only with a red-headed woman. He's ruled out brunettes for sure, based on one date in which everything went well but just wasn't magical enough. It's harmless enough, just close-minded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Pauln, those old ss amplifiers suck. I've got a couple stashed away. I can't give the things away. They sound hissy, flat and boring. Maybe, the components have aged. (I thought I typed this before in this thread? Anyways, I'm not looking through 40 pages to find out) edwinr.........What are you sittin' on for equipment? Can't give them away? I doubt that.....hissy, flat, and boring........Have I met you? You could be describin' Me.......[] LOL! I had already formed that opinion of you based on your posts! [] What have I got for amps? For preamp I have an Audio Research LS25MkII and my power amp is a Classe Model Twenty Five. As a combination the pair are on the warm side of lean - if you know what I mean, but with excellent depth in the lower frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 OK, let me try it this way, What do you have stashed away in your closet? What exotic treasures are in there?? Fess Up, you brought it up......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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