steve Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 I have 2 of these amps, one wired in mono (16 watts) driving my center Belle, the other wired in stereo (8 watts a side) driving my KHorns. I was thinking about rewiring the stereo amp to mono, thus having 16 watts a side for the KHorns, getting another amp later for the center channel, since it isn't as prominent as the KHorns anyway. Without all the SET jokes, do you think I would notice any difference on the bottom end doubling the wattage from 8 to 16 watts a side? I listen to most stuff in the 80-90db range. Or would there be no noticeable difference? Thanx for your input. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Look - IME SET is good at some things and not so good at others. I think what you are proposing is the worst of all worlds. You will compromise what the 300b CAN to in an attempt to TRY to get it to do what it otherwise doesn't (and probably still won't). Sell those amps and get a decent PP if you need more power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 Appreciate that answer, but as I stated in another post, I can't afford to keep buying amps until I get it "right" i.e.better..Now, if I could hear someone elses, and like it, that would be another story..but for now I best keep what I have! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Appreciate that answer, but as I stated in another post, I can't afford to keep buying amps until I get it "right" i.e.better..Now, if I could hear someone elses, and like it, that would be another story..but for now I best keep what I have! Steve Sorry about that; hard to keep up with everyone's posts. Since you have the amps, there is no harm in trying. I would recommend that you also go out and demo some higher power amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 I hear ya..but again, I'm probably the only "audiophile" (or whatever label that is used these days) in this town..so there's nothing to compare them with locally. I'd love to hear Craig's VRDs..maybe I can find someone in Alaska with a set..didn't Mtnbkr get a pair from Craig? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Steve, I recommend that you read some internet reviews on sites like SixMoons, Positive Feedback etc. Not so you can trust their judgments, but maybe there is something that will catch your interest. Now here is the useful part - many of the smaller manufacturers will offer 30 day money back guarantees. You might be able to take advantage of something like that. Here is one company with highly regarded products that has a 30 day money back period (standard no affiliation disclaimer): http://www.redwineaudio.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 thanx Kev..I'll look into it..I appreciate all info! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Hello Steve, I have a 300b amp with khorns and I listen at about 85-95 db. For the most part I have more than enough bottom end, now if you are trying to compare to a sub; well that's just not going to happen. You say you have al's xovers, well try changing the settings there and see where you end up. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 Hi Jay sometimes I think I am chasing my tail here..like you, I usually have enough bass, I think sometimes the lack of it is attributed to poor recordings! I have changed the taps on Al's crossovers, but I keep going back to the "stock" settings as I feel they have the most balanced sound i.e. clarity with natural bass. I guess I'm looking for a "fuller" sound sometimes..like the old days when the loudness button was depressed! As for a sub, I have swapped a Bob Carver True Sub in and out of the system, and personally, I don't care for it in a two channel set up. My preference.. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieboy Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 Steve, PM sent. Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardhead Posted August 20, 2006 Share Posted August 20, 2006 By doubling the output wattage you would get 3 dB more headroom. At a 89 dB listening level, a 104 dB/watt Klipschorn should be using about 0.03 of a watt, if my calculations are correct. You would have 24 dB headroom before you hit 8 watts at 113 dB. Bridging your amp would give you an extra 3 dB of headroom (27 dB of headroom before you hit 16 watts at 116 dB) but would cost you another amp for your center channel Belle--pretty expensive for 3 dB that you may not need. The way to find out if you need (or will notice) the extra 3 dB is to hook the mono amp to one Klipschorn and one side of the stereo amp to the other Klipschorn and do an A/B listening test to see if you can tell a difference in the bass. P.S. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks; you should be trying to please yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 thanx..that is an idea I was kicking around..I was just wondering if was gonna hurt the stereo amp to run one channel unloaded.. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 20, 2006 Author Share Posted August 20, 2006 thanx..that is an idea I was kicking around..I was just wondering if I was gonna hurt the stereo amp to run one channel unloaded.. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Hi Steve. Your dilemma is one well known to most of us. At some stage you've got to dig your heels in and make what you've already got, work for you. You could easily go the 'upgrade' path again, but you might end up with something that isn't as good to your ears and waste a lot of $$$ in the process. To answer your question about the difference between 8 watts and 16 watts subjectively, you probably won't get that much more in absolute loudness. But I reckon you'll gain heaps in dynamics and the ability to reproduce the frequency extremes. So you should get more bass. The big test will be not in the 5 minute comparison between what you had before and the two mono'd amps, but in the long term listening pleasure. It'd go something like... "Hey, this disc didn't sound that good when I was driving the K'horns with just 8 watts..." Or something like that. The music should sound more alive and immediate. At least you'll know you'll be driving the Klipschorns properly. As far as centre channels go, I'm not a big fan. My current system is orientated towards stereo, but I do have Heresys as surround channels which I can switch in any time I watch movies. I don't miss a centre channel and I don't want one. It's just another speaker requiring an amplifier that redirects money from your main system. So maybe you could sell your centre and spend the money on discs - or maybe upgrade another part of your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 I have 2 of these amps, one wired in mono (16 watts) driving my center Belle, the other wired in stereo (8 watts a side) driving my KHorns. I was thinking about rewiring the stereo amp to mono, thus having 16 watts a side for the KHorns, getting another amp later for the center channel, since it isn't as prominent as the KHorns anyway. Without all the SET jokes, do you think I would notice any difference on the bottom end doubling the wattage from 8 to 16 watts a side? I listen to most stuff in the 80-90db range. Or would there be no noticeable difference? Thanx for your input. Steve Hi Steve, No jokes here as you can tell by my screen name. One option you might check out is this for maybe 30 watts coverting the SET's to PP with this! http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/bridge/index.htm There is a dynamic advantage to this method with normal PP output transformers each tube sees 1/4 of the plate to plate load for instance a 5000 ohm primary would equate to just 1250 ohm load per tube where as bridgeing the SET will maintain a 5000 ohm load/tube this will yield very low distortion and a very high dynamic conductance which is the transconductance of the tube times its load this is a very important principle in my work as I am a designer if this is done this way the next thing I would do is bypass the choke as it likely would be over kill and is damaging to dynamics in my opinion the PP action cancels noise there are other ideas for dynamic slam as well that I use if your interested. SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 A couple of things: 1st. Let's assume you're not listening at levels loud enough to clip. In that case, unless you want to listen louder, more power won't change the bass. 2nd. The impedance of your speaker may take a dive at low frequencies. Using the 4 Ohm output of your amp will help the amp keep the amplitude at the low impedance dips in line with the rest if the frequency spectrum. I've compared bass using my SET amps to bass using the Crown D-45. Within the amplitudes for which the SET is capable, I can't detect a difference. The Crown will certainly play louder, however. There is another possibility, and that is the frequency response of your SET amp drops off earlier than you would like. That's not a function of power, but of power supply capacitor size and transformer capability. Again, more power won't help that. Supply cap size (or parafeed cap size if you use that circuit) and bass-capability of the output transformer determine low frequency cutoff, not power. The supply caps (parafeed in my case) in my SET amps have a 3dB cutoff at 10Hz or lower. The iron is good down to 10Hz. My Chorus-II speakers are down 3dB at 40Hz (RF-7s around 32Hz). In this case, speakers determine bass cutoff, not the amp. Leo I just remembered, If you're not using a parafeed design then the size of the Cathode cap on the output tube is another and probably the biggest bass limiting factor. Unfortunately, although this one doesn't have to handle the high Voltage of the supply caps, it has to drive the low impedance of the tube Cathode. I've seen several amps in which the output Cathode caps were not really big enough and were limiting bass. Someone familiar with the circuit of your SET should know the bass cutoffs of the various components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 21, 2006 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 Thanx for all the answers guys. I actually emailed the builder of the amp, and they advised me that the bass performance is set by the amps output impedence, not the power output. And Leo, thanx, I already have the amp(s) wired in 4 ohms. I shouldn't complain too loudly..on most recordings, the bass is acceptable..I guess the KHorns just show bad recordings well! And, in retrospect, after almost a year later, I don't think I would have done the center channel route again..it's not THAT much of a difference to my ears. But I have that brand new Belle, and I know I couldn't turn it for even close to what I paid for it! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 21, 2006 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 SET12 thanx for the link..I'll check it out..that's what so great about this forum..always learning! Regards Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Steve, you are running 3 channel Khorns r&l, and a Belle in the middle, and if I understand you, you don't care for it? Any big reason why? Driven by SET amp.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve Posted August 21, 2006 Author Share Posted August 21, 2006 Not that I don't care for it, OB, just saying that looking back, I don't feel the center channel really made that much difference! I could have saved my money and tried something else! As for the SET sound, no, so far I like it better than anything else I have experienced. I just wish I could have that mid/top end sound with a little more "fullness" on the bass. NOT subwoofer bass, I'm not looking for that. I guess the best way to describe it is the sound we used to get when we hit the loudness (contour) button! Or the way LPs sound "fuller" compared to their CD counterparts (again, my opinion). Part of this hobby is always looking for that "better" sound. I just don't want to shell out anymore cash without having heard it first! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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