Kevin S Posted November 17, 2001 Share Posted November 17, 2001 As I stated in my previous post, I am not saying that anyone isn't hearing what they say they are hearing. I simply pointed out some reasons that made it probable that easyeyes was not actually hearing a difference caused by his cable. I would like to know why it is that I have NEVER seen an article about someone with this amazingly acute hearing ability prove this ability in any type of controlled, verifiable and repeatable listening test. In the 75 to 100 years of modern sound reproduction you would think that at least one of those guys would have been able to meet that simple standard. They can make up the test. All I require is that they not know which component they are listening to and that listening levels be exactly matched. Also, it should be noted that the only portions of the audio community that I have seen rail against controlled testing is the portion that profits from selling the products with the claimed sonic superiority or those who have spent their money on the product and thus, in spite of anything they may say to the contrary, are predisposed to believe they are hearing a difference. The AES, Canada's Speaker testing facility (whose correct name escapes me), the old Bell Labs, and I am sure many other organizations, all of whom have no self interest to protect, use some form of controlled testing in their research. To all of you who hear these differences, I want to believe you. Could someone just prove it to me, just once. I am not the kind of guy who accepts things on faith. And my experiences, which are as valid as anyones, do not jive with what you are telling me. ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Pioneer PD-F908 100 Disc Changer Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 easyeyes,sorry for the sarcastic post.Somehow the fact that someone is able to tell me(or you)that I am or am not hearing what I AM IN FACT HEARING evokes sarcastic responses for myself.Hope that doesn't sound sarcastic! And yes,I believe you. :^) Keith PS~Have you tried bi-wiring your 30's? You might try bi-wiring with the IXOS to the hi's and the 12ga.to the low's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 Keith--Oh, I believe that Easy heard a difference between the sound coming from his left and right speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 Tom, I surely dont believe in the left and right speaker comparison that he did. He should listen to his first set of wires in his system at noted volume level and get a handle on the sound with some of his favorite selections. Then switch, and with matched levels, perform some comparisons with his new set of wires. I would probably do this a number of times before coming to any conclusions. I would also make sure I was relaxed and listening to the music and not just the system. I hope to hell you are not saying that wire is wire, however. Yes, the audiophile bunch can be annoying as hell with little or no interest in music, particularly. Ye olde Audio Upgrade Fever is also a sad state to exist in ... as is the need for the latest gimcrack device. That being said, there are differences and if you are saying that you have heard none in wire then that is troubling, indeed. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 Cat 5 plenum, teflon coated, 24 gauge, solid core copper. Braid it and it makes great speaker wire. And It's cheap. I don't think even PWK would have much of a ***** about it either. THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted November 18, 2001 Share Posted November 18, 2001 I suspect that whatever differences cables make are not measurable in units available on any available "meters". The differences reported cannot be more than subtle, but important when listening attentively for things like imaging clarity, low-level detail, background darkness, soundstage qualities and ants farting. The differences between cables seem to be described as differences in the way they color the music. By the way, I don't buy the whole schpeal about the goal of audiophilia being to remove the colorations of equipment that are added to the recording: a recording is silent without a minimum of hardware to hear it; the only reference sound is the one we name as such. The goal of audiophilia is to throw tons of money at equipment and fret about whether it was the right equipment until you throw more money at more equipment. This character of the cable differences seems to be what makes it difficult to come up with the "controlled, verifiable and repeatable listening test" to which Kevin referred. If Joe Schmoe identifies differences between certain cables, we'd probably have to run the same test with the same equipment, room, AC, etc. to hear what Joe heard. That's not so easy to do when most published comparisons involve hard-core (read: expensive) equipment and many pieces to have to match; not to mention room and power qualities (or tidal forces at work) not easy to duplicate. The only way you're gonna feel comfortable about the issue of cables is to assume they make a difference and worry about which cable you would like best. It's easier on the psyche than worrying about whether or not cables actually make a difference.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 I like the nearly unscientific tests that you and I perform and I did hear a difference in my newer Monster cables than my older ones, this difference was worth the fifty bucks, thank you ... ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 quote: Originally posted by mike stehr: Cat 5 plenum, teflon coated, 24 gauge, solid core copper. Braid it and it makes great speaker wire. And It's cheap. I don't think even PWK would have much of a ***** about it either. THANX! dont get the Plenum. that is just a fire rating. it is about 3 times the cost of plain CAT 5. Also, CAT6 is even better than CAT5. DON"T WASTE THE MONEY OF FIRE RETARDENT!! Plenum is not needed at all, unless you are using your speakers in a fire zone... ------------------ -justin I am an amateur, if it is professional; ProMedia help you want email Amy or call her @ 1-888-554-5665 Klipsch Home Audio help you want, email support@klipsch.com or call @ 1-800-KLIPSCH RA# Fax Number=317-860-9140 / Parts Department Fax Number=317-860-9150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 The Teflon has better properties when braided. Better properties than PVC. What's the difference, twenty-five cents a foot?! Whatever. THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 Prana--Oh, I feel comfortable about wire not even thinking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 Mobile--I've taken part in DBTs in which no differentiation could be made between wires, as you probably know in such a test you testing for difference and not for which is better. The assumption is that if a difference cannot be told then there is no difference, it would seem to follow. That said I can conceive of wires that would change the sound but it's not something I'm interested in. To be frank my rig sounds so good that wires aren't on the agenda. When I do play it is with various drivers and horns, like the new JBL 2427s I just got from the JBL tent sale, things that can make an immediate and uncontested difference, that and I'm just more interested in them than in wires, I like the mechanical things, improving the motor itself. When we had the first Chicago Horn Club meeting at my house Alan Hendler brought his gorgeous Kornoff 45 SET amp which was played with my Altec 605As. Now the 605s are wired with mismatched wire I had handy at the time and some may have looked a little askance at that. But a few minutes later everyone was just digging on the fantastic sound of 605s and 45s. Could wires have made a difference? Maybe. Did it matter? Not really. If you want to make your CW rig sound better the best thing you can do is replace that mid horn with an Edgar saladbowl, you'll hear that in spades. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 I am not sure why I am contributing to this post - I normally try to avoid any discussion on cables like the plague. Why? Well simply this. I found that switching cables from monster to Synergistic silver cables (at enormous relative cost) made a HUGE difference to my enjoyment of the music. For me, this was not a DBT issue, the change was so dramatic that everyone who heard both setups commented on the improvement. I am beginning to suspect that there must have been something wrong with my original cables. With the original cables the woofers were barely moving - the new ones and they were pounding. I have been left unable to explain how people can state so categorically that there is no difference when my own experience was so dramatic. One day, if I can be bothered, I may go out and buy some cheaper cable to re-test but right now it is just so low on my priorities. I, for one, would therefore fully understand anyone who spends relatively large sums of money on cables and can fully believe that they then hear a difference. Those of you that dont are going to save heaps of money and somehow I rather wish I was in that camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easyeyes Posted November 19, 2001 Author Share Posted November 19, 2001 My test was strictly audible, the difference the I heard with my ears at the same volume. It's hard to believe that people, myself included will spend thousands on speakers, even more on amps/preamps, processors, high-end receivers,interconnects and the perpetual list can go on and on relative to each individual system and not be willing to invest miniscule amounts into cable to see if there's a difference. Many of the cables advertised on the net have money back guarantees, take the plunge, order some to see if they sound better than the off-the-shelf brands. If you are not satisfied with the results or the lack thereof, send them back for a complete refund minus shipping costs. I'm in the UK and it was right at $5 for shipping. Performing all the high-end tests takes too much time. Personally, I'll put more stake into what I hear, as unscientific as it is, versus what some meter or a particular stat is telling me or furthermore what some guy in a magazine or audiophile editorial says. My original wire was some cheap $9 stuff that says it was OFC, to be honest it sounded great with my KLF 30s. If I invested over $1,800 (MFRSP)_ into some speakers for the purpose of improved sound, it makes sense to try $50 worth of cable to possibly receive more enhanced sound. If none of you have tried the so-called "premium" cable before, whay don't you give it a try. If your test concludes with no gain, what have you lost? Nothing! EasyEyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easyeyes Posted November 19, 2001 Author Share Posted November 19, 2001 Talk to Keith, No, I haven't bi-wired my 30s yet. A friend came over to the house the other night, he has 30s also and he mentioned bi-wiring. The entire cable thing is new to me, what improvement(s) can I expect with bi-wiring? Right now, I doing research on a new receiver. I've narrowed it down to the Denon 3802 or the Onkyo 797, right now I'm leaning toward the 787. With the newer models coming out I'm playing the wait and see if the price goes down game. I will make my purchase right after the new year. My old used sony has done me proud, but my 30s are crying for mor power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 Easy--Why reinvent the wheel. Fact is many people in this hobby are delusional. John Dunlavey, a true scientist, tells stories of audiophiles who gushed over new wires in the rig when he'd left the old wires in place, evidently just thinking the wires are different makes the sound better. It's telling that this wire thing started in the 70s, a time when "high-end" audio consisted of steeley big-hog SS amps and crummy direct-radiators. It also coincided with the rise in disposable income and conspicuous consumption of the Baby Boomers, a generation unmatched in gullibility, hubris and self-indulgence. The first wire guy was Bob Fulton, a mystic who made good recordings and bad loudspeakers, that he was aware of principles beyond the knowledge of Harry Olson is beyond my ken. The guys who started this hobby after The War didn't putz around with wire and they had better rigs than most today and some very good sources. The Giants of Hi-Fi, the guys who developed it's basic principles in the 30s and made gear that is still unbettered and lusted after today, seemed uninterested in wire beyond that it pass the signal. Don't you think Wente, Thuras and Fletcher at Bell Labs would have noticed such a simple thing? Well it's only Bell Labs. Don't you think John Hilliard, the Zeus of hi-fi, the man who hurled thousands of thunderbolts of good sound into theaters and studios around the world from his Olympus in Hollywood would have noticed such a simple thing? PWK wired his speakers with bell wire, don't you think that after all the years he spent trying to get better sound he would have used better wire if it mattered? Or do you think he was too stupid? But then some jamoke changes his wire and says he gets better bass?!? I guess ole PWK was wasting his time experimenting with rubber throats and different folds and drivers, he just needed different wire, all those years of diligent research wasted. In what universe is this true? You know, I still have a yellow "bullshit" button PWK gave me 30 years ago, it was good advice then and good advice now. I've fallen prey to several embarassing incidents of audio self-delusion myself, I'm wary now. I can't even be sure I believe what I hear, I sure don't put any faith in what you think you hear. The human capacity for self-delusion and folly is limitless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 AMEN,BROTHER! Most of these great folks mentioned, probably worked with solid core copper wire, Right? Shouldn't make bad speaker wire. Delusional Hype, I agree. Thanx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted November 21, 2001 Share Posted November 21, 2001 easyeyes,can't give you any first person answers regarding bi-wiring your 30's,but I can quote a little Klipsch text. "High quality speaker cable can make an audible improvement in the sound of your speakers." "Bi-wire connections can result in improvements in the clarity and detail of your speakers." I know the above comments are true my friend,because I read them. Don't pay any attention to the comments of the old farts above.They are probably to old and fat to try your experiment for themselves.I'll bet they don't believe the USA put men on the moon in 1969 either.I know it's true though.I read it someplace. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 21, 2001 Share Posted November 21, 2001 Keith---So the new Klipsch company panders to the new breed of audiophile, big surprise. Hey Yellow Hammer, don't play your Klipsches so loud they rock the trailer off the jacks. I heard you moved to Alabama from Illinois and raised the average IQ in both states. This is a Parthian shot, won't see a computor for several days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted November 21, 2001 Share Posted November 21, 2001 OHHH,that really hurt TB.Its easy to see that you know absolutely nothing about the South.Perhaps in time both your tolerance for others opinions and your knowledge of the South will improve.In the meantime,Happy Holidays! Keith >EDIT< Oh yeah,if you're going to challenge someone's intellect,try to spell correctly! This message has been edited by talktoKeith on 11-21-2001 at 02:10 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted December 2, 2001 Share Posted December 2, 2001 Here's a little something for the special wire=nirvana crowd: find a copy of the August 1983 issue of Stereo Review, then turn to page 46 for Lawrence Greenhill's article "Speaker Cables: Can You Hear The Difference?". It compares 24-gauge vs 16-gauge vs Monster Cable wire in controlled, double-blind tests using premium audiophile components and gives out plenty of good information. I won't get into the specifics as it is a long article but here's a quote from their conclusions: "This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires." I've listened to a few high-end cables vs 16-gauge OFC wire myself and can't hear the difference either. The magazine article may be 18 years old but the information is still relevant, so far I'm still inclined to spend money on the components over wires that can be used to jump-start diesel trucks. Nothing personal to you "pride of ownership types" out there so spend your money as you will, perhaps on the really impressive Lirpa Labs Lirpa Turbo Steamtable. 2-CHANNEL Mobile Fidelity UltrAmp (Michael Yee PA-1) amp Rotel RC-1070 preamp Rega Planet CD player Linn Sondek LP12 turntable Denon DR-F7 cassette deck B&W CDM9NT speakers HOME THEATER Sherwood R-956 (utilized as a pre-pro) Acurus A125X5 amp Sony DVP-S330 DVD player Sony CDP-C725 CD player Toshiba W704 6-head VHS player Klipsch Cornwall II main's Klipsch KSW12 subwoofer Cerwin-Vega LS6C center (still looking for a Klipsch Academy to match the Cornwall II's) Sansui XL-500 rear's (full-range, no Bose cubes here!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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