jon_010101 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 the real Tone Purist's, like Eric Johnson, for one.... claim the removal of them cap's ruins the value and tone of vintage guitar amps, esp. Fender McIntosh and Marantz collectors can be the same way... it's kinda sad... all of those guys are in for a very nasty surprise when the bumble bees (inevitably) short out and fry their tubes and/or output transformers (which are a lot more valuable than a 50 year old paper/mylar film cap). I've yet to find a vintage paper/mylar cap that didn't fail within a few months of use, if it wasn't shorted already. Old electrolytic can caps are probably more reliable than bumble bees. They DO sound pretty good while they last... but there are plenty of modern equivalent mylar or paper film caps which will be more reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 the real Tone Purist's, like Eric Johnson, for one.... claim the removal of them cap's ruins the value and tone of vintage guitar amps, esp. Fender McIntosh and Marantz collectors can be the same way... it's kinda sad... all of those guys are in for a very nasty surprise when the bumble bees (inevitably) short out and fry their tubes and/or output transformers (which are a lot more valuable than a 50 year old paper/mylar film cap). I've yet to find a vintage paper/mylar cap that didn't fail within a few months of use, if it wasn't shorted already. Old electrolytic can caps are probably more reliable than bumble bees. They DO sound pretty good while they last... but there are plenty of modern equivalent mylar or paper film caps which will be more reliable. No doubt. Those "vintage" cap guys are a little loony and setting themselves up for an unreliable am AT BEST. The only thing kookier is someone with NOS caps on the shelf for future use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 Thanks, Jon, Duke and Kev. That is kind of what I guessed. My Marantz 8B has surprised me with sounding as great as it does for a 40 year old original amp (it really has some unique magic in the midrange and on the top end that I have not heard in other pp amps), but I am more concerned about the output transformer (and a quad of gold lions waiting for after the rebuild) as opposed to preserving caps that may fail at any time. On the other hand, since Marantz collectors still value them, I will probably keep the removed original parts in a bag in case I ever decide to sell it in the future (which is highly unlikely). Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_010101 Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 Hi Carl, Saving the components in a bag is a good idea, just for the sake of history. At the same time, no sane person would ever want to reinstall them. I have all of the bumble bees and oozing (literally!) paper-in-oil caps from a few amp projects and, really, they are nothing more than toxic waste in a box. If I ever sell any of my amps though, I'll certainly pass them on for the sake of history and completeness. I read somewhere that even Sid Smith himself re-did and extensively tweaked most of his Marantz amps over time. Knowing this inspired me to make some upgrades in my Radio Craftsmen 500a's (also a Sid Smith design) ... polypropylene power supply caps, etc., where previously I had kept things to 1950's-style parts only :-) As long as I keep the component values and external appearance original, I don't feel like I'm stomping on history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hardy Posted September 3, 2006 Author Share Posted September 3, 2006 Yup, the hi-fi guys like to lose the ol' bumblebees PDQ! :-) I'd have probably opted for something other than the Illinois caps, but the amp sounded so dang good after the refurb that I ended up using Illinois caps in a Fisher 400 that I also did for the 8B's proud owner. They're pretty decent caps after all, and nice and small (even the 600V's). The 8B's full range tone is really satisfying and goes unbelievably well with the Cornies. I don't think I've heard an MC-30 (although I've got a fair amount of listening time logged with an MC-225 and MC-60's), but if it's audibly better than the 8B, it must be quite the mofo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_010101 Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 http://cgi.ebay.com/4-PCS-SPRAGUE-BUMBLE-BEE-0-22uF-600VDC-CAPACITORS_W0QQitemZ270025312644QQihZ017QQcategoryZ71573QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem On the topic of bumble bee caps, can you imagine someone buying these to use in an amplifier?!?!?!? [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 "The 8B's full range tone is really satisfying and goes unbelievably well with the Cornies. I don't think I've heard an MC-30 (although I've got a fair amount of listening time logged with an MC-225 and MC-60's), but if it's audibly better than the 8B, it must be quite the mofo." I don't think its a matter of which one is better - there are people who favor the vintage Mac sound, and there are those who prefer the vintage Marantz sound. Kind of like comparing a Porsche to a Ferrari or different fine wines - both are very, very good. Having heard my fair share of Macs including the 30, I prefer the 8B. But, I know people who hold the opposite view. Carl. P.S. The rest of house is now asleep, but listening to "Live at Pompeii - Floyd, the Director's Cut," with four large horns and a sub - even at moderate levels is fantastic........ Good stuff....... my favorite quote is a young Gilmour explaining new electronic synths at the time ..... its just an extension of what is in our heads.......our job is to pull it out of our heads....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 Carl's pretty much spot on - not necessarily "better", maybe just different. It's all a matter of preferences..... Cap swaps are somewhat treacherous at times. They can change the sonics of a vintage amp. Lucky for me I got three "looks" at different caps before deciding on my MC-30 rebuilds. If you do recap and find you don't like it so much, there are certainly different high end caps that can tip that amp slightly one way or the other in terms of the final signature. Sometimes when people rebuild, they like - and sometimes they don't. It seems with Klipsch owners that most prefer the rebuilds.....it's just a matter of which parts make the best match with your gear. Fresh parts make for cleaner sound, generally speaking - especially on the sonic magnifiers that are horns. Recapping does bring a certain amount of surety to owning a vintage amp - less worry about parts failures if it is redone. But I do also know people who have such gears with original caps that work and have worked well for many years - and don't want to change. A vintage amp with regular usage history bodes well for those who want them all original - and such an amp often will work in spec. I've seen all original MC30s from 1960 that work perfectly. If one is in such a situation and likes the vintage character, be aware that mileage varies when recapping. As for the 8B vs the MC30 - well, I own two pairs of MC30s - but sure wouldn't mind an 8B either[] Both have thier own special blend of really good stuff....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 http://cgi.ebay.com/4-PCS-SPRAGUE-BUMBLE-BEE-0-22uF-600VDC-CAPACITORS_W0QQitemZ270025312644QQihZ017QQcategoryZ71573QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem On the topic of bumble bee caps, can you imagine someone buying these to use in an amplifier?!?!?!? [] Actually, yeah. Especially the "do it yourself" hobbyists who demand the original tone. A particular tube seller on ebay I frequent sells quite a few of these type of caps - and gets as much for those as the top shelf vintage tubes he sells. I don't do my own bench work, and therefore would never order these installed in my Macs - but I am aware of self tech hobbyists who would - and do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 "Fresh parts make for cleaner sound, generally speaking - especially on the sonic magnifiers that are horns. Recapping does bring a certain amount of surety to owning a vintage amp - less worry about parts failures if it is redone." Nice post, Audible. Its really for the cleaner sound at higher volumes as to why I am planning on getting my 8B rebuilt rather than for the surety about parts failure. She has served me well for two years now, and I have also known those who have run some original Marantz amps with nary a problem. But, between the Trachorns and the Eminence tweeters (with the Belles) and the JMA Peach and the modded tubed CDP, my system is revealing. I just need to clean her up and hopefully not change the sweet sonic signature. Guess I may have to do some research in advance on replacement caps for the 8B...... Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 I would imagine the 8b is the ultimate amp for alot of speakers : ) Hmmmmnnnnnn.... itsa PP amp, tho ....... what,..?? No SET..???........[] I love set amplifiers but why limit yourself to one topology many are the paths to audionirvana. In fact I am having some Allen 90 organ amps rebuilt for me as we speak : ) I heard some 8b many years ago with some khorns in fact the same guy had some mcintosch and quad II amps. I loved them all and couldn't pick one to stay with as I could have been happy with any of them. I did like the utilitarian look of the Quads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Let's really open a can of worms - anyone here ever listen to a Marantz 2 on a Cornwall? As I recall the 2s were not quite as detailed or refined as the 8b, but, oh my, did they sound sweet and romantic - plus they had headroom for days. Biggest mistake of my audio life was selling them and the matching preamps. But what did I know. The place that I bought my tubes from was going out of business, and everyone was telling me the insulation on the wires would start breaking down, and I wouldn't be able to get parts, and here's close to three times what you paid for them, and I needed the money... Rats. Rats. I think I'll go paint something black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homemadeheresy Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Glad that you have found a combination that you like. I would like to get into tube amps this winter. Am looking for something that needs a little TLC, just looked on epay and this seems to be a very sought after amp. A few nice example listed for a couple of weeks pay. OUCH... If you happen to come across an extra one, drop me a line[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 A most depressing tale of woe, Captain. Sam did you get my reply to your PM? By the way I have an extra Fisher 500c I'd probably part with but it will need a Craig rebuild. As you can see I have a packet of these Spragues lying around. Craig was good enough to nicely desolder, not clip, them and send them back after he worked on the 8b. I can tell you one thing, it sounded better after he was done with it and he felt that the russian caps he used were the best match to not change the tonality of the amp. Of course, I haven't looked under the hood so he may have filled it up with those el-cheapo Blackgates.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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