OK, So why doesn't Klipsch Make a Horn-Loaded Sub?

[Raider]

I feel sort of like I'm walking around the elephant in the room, but why do you think Klipsch doesn't make a horn-loaded sub for the lowest octave?

Yes, they would be big and heavy due to the required physics. Probably expensive. But I have observed folks are buying subs from Danley Sound Labs, Pi, and others often to go with their heritage speakers. The challenge is to find a sub source that can match the characteristics - and efficiency- of the existing lines. Subs with performance commensurate with the rest of the line. Fact of the mattter is that low sub frequency content is now practical due to digital media, and commonplace in media today. In the vinyl years, when the Heritage line was developed, this was not the case, at least if you wanted to keep the "L" in "LP".

The closest I have seen is the triangular Reference subs that are apparently designed to be placed in a corner, though I have yet to see a dealer display them that way.

I've even seen threads lately that hypothesize what type of corner sub PWK would have designed.

So I thought I would ask the obvious question: Why didn't he. Or why don't his engineering successors?

[SilverSport]

screaming for an answer...[:@]

Bill

[Jay481985]

the lower the hertz the direct correlation to a bigger horn mouth. To get a horn mouth of 20 hertz value I believe you need a 5 feet wide and 20 feet long horn! That is called bigger than most rooms can hold let alone waf. Also Danley labs uses a tapper horn that uses a system that accounts for a overly short horn to do some magical stuff.

Yes Klipsch makes subwoofers that are horn loaded. But its pro stuff and does not do well below 32 hertz. And its as big as most home fridgerators. Yeah, umm its hard to make big horns. Physics are Physics

[SilverSport]

well alright, Jay!

Excellent!

Bill

[TheSoundBroker]

Probably comes down to just the factors you mentioned...big, heavy and expensive. The DTS-20 is a horn sub, just a very unique design and one that can still (somewhat) reasonably fit in most rooms. Other companies have made big horn loaded subs (ala Avante Garde), but the market for them is so small that it is hardly justifiable to go into production on a manufacturing basis. If you think about it, few people want to give up the space needed to fit K-Horns. Imagine trying to convince them to put something in 2-4 times the size. Besides which...if you have K-Horns in the corners...you will run out of corners. Where you gonna put a corner loaded sub?

As for why didn't he...back when PWK designed speakers, as noted, your biggest limitation on bass was the playback medium (LP's). Until the advent of CD's and in particular DVD's, there wasn't much call out for truly deep frequency extension as there were few turntables capable of digging that deep and not much material out there that had the extension. In essence, PWK would have built a speaker that reproduced turntable rumble (remember Rumble Filters? High pass filters to keep the low frequencies OUT of the signal?). For most folks, the K-Horns were the very pinnacle of awesome bass (not to say some fringe element audio guys didn't make big subs back in "the day"). The big push for subwoofers came exactly at the time digital came into it's own but still remained a specialty item until the advent of digital 5.1 home theater with a dedicated LFE channel gave the subwoofer it's own starring role and something for the engineers to play around with while mixing soundtracks. Would I love to see one? HECK yeah! Would I display one in the store? Probably not...the DTS-20 is enough for most folks to swallow but at least it can fit in a lot of spaces, and it has the sound characteristics that allow it to mesh with high impact speakers like Heritage and not be embarassed, combined with god awful massive quantities of low frequency output.

[Jay481985]

The Avante Garde costs 15000 dollars per hornloaded sub and to make it look nice and all just like the advertisement you need 6 of them! so..... 90000 on hornloaded sub!

Also my parents brought a onkyo home system I believe in 1993 and it still did not have a sub. If I recall the only system at the time that had a sub was the sony es system that was in the ten thousand dollar range. And like TheSoundBroker said, digital gave the catalyst to propel subwoofers. Also one more catalyst I believe is the high wattage low cost Class D amps used in most subwoofers, without them imagine trying to get atleast 200 watts with a class A amp!!!

[sunburnwilly]

I believe I have a pretty good theory to this .

Klipsch did not get into subwoofer manufacturing until after PWK sold the company to Fred Klipsch . So , since the new Klipsch company was moving away from the type of speakers that put Klipsch on the map , why bother . I mean it's nice that they still produce the Heritage line but what else could they do . To stop production on the types of speakers that the company was founded on would allienate 40 years of loyal customers .

IMO ...

I believe Paul probably felt his speakers didn't need a sub , but if he lived in this day and age and still owned the company I believe he would have produced a horn loaded sub !

Flame away , I'm a Big Boy and can take it !

[Jay481985]

Subs didn't really exist until the mid 90's so that was after Paul sold the company, maybe a few factors with the selling of klipsch but not generally.

Also so what, take to two front corners for the klipschorns and the whole back for the klipschsubhorn???

[sunburnwilly]

Subs didn't really exist until the mid 90's so that was after Paul sold the company, maybe a few factors with the selling of klipsch but not generally.

Also so what, take to two front corners for the klipschorns and the whole back for the klipschsubhorn???

I believe Velodyne started making subwoofers in 1982 ...

[sunburnwilly]

Subs didn't really exist until the mid 90's so that was after Paul sold the company, maybe a few factors with the selling of klipsch but not generally.

Also so what, take to two front corners for the klipschorns and the whole back for the klipschsubhorn???

I believe Velodyne started making subwoofers in 1982 ...

Truethfully , I believe that if PWK lived in this day and age he would have produced a hornloaded sub to complement his speakers .

IMO ...

Oh Yeah ,

Klipsch On !!!

[Jay481985]

It didn't grow very fast until the 90's

[damonrpayne]

DrWho was just doing some research into horn loaded subwoofers and mentioned the same factors Jay did: the mouth size would need to be tremendous. One of the dope from hope listed the "effective" mouth size of the corner-loaded woofer in the klipschorn etc. I'm not sure if corner-loading and horn-folding would be enough to allow horn-only bass down to 20hz or not?

[Jay481985]

Just put it this way, look how big the jubilee horn or the klipsch horn is (the top squawker part) note how that is for mostly just the midrange. If you look at the Khorn's tweeter horn and compare the size of the squawker note how big you need to make the horn from hf to mid frequency. Now think proportionally how big that horn has to be then for the hertz for a sub. Note the khorn goes down to around 32 hertz and most of the heft of the khorn is in the basshorn. Now trying to go down all the way to 20 hertz would probably mean volume factor times 4! so...... people's wives complain about the khorns already but to have a subhorn 4X bigger than the klipschorn??? [*-)]

[Raider]

I believe I have a pretty good theory to this .

Klipsch did not get into subwoofer manufacturing until after PWK sold the company to Fred Klipsch . So , since the new Klipsch company was moving away from the type of speakers that put Klipsch on the map , why bother . I mean it's nice that they still produce the Heritage line but what else could they do . To stop production on the types of speakers that the company was founded on would allienate 40 years of loyal customers .

IMO ...

I believe Paul probably felt his speakers didn't need a sub , but if he lived in this day and age and still owned the company I believe he would have produced a horn loaded sub !

Flame away , I'm a Big Boy and can take it !

Klipsch seems to be taking a tried and true path, which is using flagship products to create a halo effect for lesser products. The diversity of producing parallel product lines to address both price points and functional needs is wise I think for the long run, a path that at a pragmatic level seems to be working since Klipsch is acquiring rather than being acquired. While many have audiophile aspirations, the reality is that most folks can only afford bread-and-butter products. But these 80 percentile bread-and-butterproducts provide the cash flow necessary to sustain the 20 percent high end product and R&D.

I also believe, without a doubt that Paul Klipsch, living today, would fully embrace the technology available, apply it pragmatically to fundamental acoustic principles in an innovative way. He would have found a way to produce a horn loaded sub.

[Raider]

Subs didn't really exist until the mid 90's so that was after Paul sold the company, maybe a few factors with the selling of klipsch but not generally.

Also so what, take to two front corners for the klipschorns and the whole back for the klipschsubhorn???

I believe Velodyne started making subwoofers in 1982 ...

Truethfully , I believe that if PWK lived in this day and age he would have produced a hornloaded sub to complement his speakers .

IMO ...

 

Oh Yeah ,

Klipsch On !!!

I think this is the consensus.

Paul Klipsch responded to the challenge of being told that horns as used in theatres couldn't be put into a home environment by innovatively folding the horn back on itself.

Who would have guessed that the theatre would follow the horns into the home.

I wonder how many hours it took PWK to engineer the folded horn.  Think what he could have done with CAD/CAM/CNC.

The challenge is for present day Klipsch engineers to apply these tools and accept the challenge to build a horn loaded sub, or more importantly not accept that it can't be done.  As PWK did. 

There is alot of speculation as to whether the present corporation is still true to its engineering roots and core philosophy.

A state-or-the-art yet relatively affordable horn loaded sub, built by the corporation that built itself on horn technology would go a long way toward ending that debate.  To not accept the challenge is a clear statement to the contrary.

Such a product would integrate with both the Heritage and Reference lines.

Can't be done?  Danley sounds designs would indicate otherwise.  He seems to be both producing design, and selling them as well. 

If Klipsch engineers aren't up to the task, then maybe the corporation's next acquisition should be Danley Sound. Bring his expertise and renegade spirit in-house.  He seems more philosophically aligned with PWK in many ways.

[Raider]

DrWho was just doing some research into horn loaded subwoofers and mentioned the same factors Jay did: the mouth size would need to be tremendous. One of the dope from hope listed the "effective" mouth size of the corner-loaded woofer in the klipschorn etc. I'm not sure if corner-loading and horn-folding would be enough to allow horn-only bass down to 20hz or not?

As I recall from hearing PWK speak, the primary difference between the Belle Klipsch (LaScala) and the Klipshorn was that he designed the Klipshorn to use the corners of the room itself as the last fod of the horn, thereby extending its response to about 32 hz, the practical limit of the vinyl medium at the time. The last fold then was much less controlled and unpredictable, but served the function well enough, I suppose. A less than ideal approach for sure, but it seems to work well enough, as Klipschorn owners are quick to assert.

[Raider]

the lower the hertz the direct correlation to a bigger horn mouth. To get a horn mouth of 20 hertz value I believe you need a 5 feet wide and 20 feet long horn! That is called bigger than most rooms can hold let alone waf. Also Danley labs uses a tapper horn that uses a system that accounts for a overly short horn to do some magical stuff.

Yes Klipsch makes subwoofers that are horn loaded. But its pro stuff and does not do well below 32 hertz. And its as big as most home fridgerators. Yeah, umm its hard to make big horns. Physics are Physics

Absolutely. And I fundamentally understand the physics involved. Not nearly to degree of most here, but I do understand the fundamentals.

So while the physics haven't changed, the market has.

The industry itself has changed. Most high end systems are now sold as part of an integrated package by custom installation companies that are either an off-shoot of brick-and-mortar businesses, or more often these days, by custom installation companies that have no show-room presence. Many are subsidiary companies of related businesses such as HVAC, alarm, and often commercial sound companies.

I have interesting conversations with a friend of mine who left a premier high-end audio company here and now specializes in custom audio/video installations. His average installation is $30,000. Average. Many in the area I live in will invest as much as 20% of their total new home cost, or renovation cost in audio/video/electronics. Most of these systems are done simultaneously as part of an architectural element, including integrated sound treatment.

Paul's original intent was for the Klipshorn to use the corner walls as the last phase of the folding horn. For 32 hz response that was arguably sufficient for the media at the time. The dimensions required by the physics to get a lower response are noted above in the first of this post. 5" wide 20' long or so. Given the realities of the HT market now, I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that the last fold of the horn could be built into the room itself, as part of the overall installation. Behind a false wall. Underneath a riser for theatre chairs. Within an adjacent attic, crawlspace, or room. Maybe think of the folded horn subbass assembly as a "driver" that will load the last phase of the horn as architectural element of the room itself. The last phase of the horn could be built to Klipsch provided specification (similar to THX specs) as engineered by Klipsch. To me this is the next logical step from where PWK might have gone.

Interestingly, this thread here bears this out. About half way through, the Klipsch owner provides pictures of his home addition and HT/family room.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/692856.aspx

Note the use of a Danley sound sub-horn integrated as part of the architectural revision.

Note the integration of a state-of-the-art HT room within a family living space, with Klipschhorns no less. Well done.

So I think success for Klipsch in producing a folding horn sub may lie in embracing the dynamics of today's market, and following the logical extension of PWK's original Klipshorn approach.

In the meantime, I find it interesting, and indicative of a degree of disconnect between Klipsch's market and engineering departments the way the new Reference subs are (or more to the point are not) promoted. In actuality, the sub is designed much like the Klipschorn, to be loaded into the corner of the room. Yet there is only fleeting reference to this in the promotional literature, IMO is should have been pivotal as a way of linking new product to core philosophies and concepts. No wonder then that I haven't seen a Reference IV sub yet displayed in a showroom corner in the application it was obviously designed for.

[Jay481985]

The danley is a tappered horn and uses short and such mouth to create with the backwave of the horn to produce the bass response. Danley worked for many fields relating to nasa and he built subs more capable then the dts20 but is it logical to have a nuclear power generator in the backyard cause in the long run it is cheaper or just use electricity from the town like everyone else?

Also what you said above sounds more like a infinite baffle than horn loaded sub......

[WMcD]

It is a legit question. But.

I myself, am a bit annoyed that some of the question implies a sell-out by Klipsch and failure to meet modern day demands.

The K-Horn goes to 32 Hz. Some want 16 Hz. Failure to provide this shows the company is trapped in an avuncular technology which can be easily updated if they were not living in the far distant past. Such is the implication.

Not so.

Bigger bass horns can be made. The problem, as descibed by others above, is that they become larger than the room in which they must sit.

Gil

[Jay481985]

where was that picture of the horn above the person's house?