OK, So why doesn't Klipsch Make a Horn-Loaded Sub?

[Chris Robinson]

the lower the hertz the direct correlation to a bigger horn mouth. To get a horn mouth of 20 hertz value I believe you need a 5 feet wide and 20 feet long horn! That is called bigger than most rooms can hold let alone waf. Also Danley labs uses a tapper horn that uses a system that accounts for a overly short horn to do some magical stuff.

Yes Klipsch makes subwoofers that are horn loaded. But its pro stuff and does not do well below 32 hertz. And its as big as most home fridgerators. Yeah, umm its hard to make big horns. Physics are Physics

Interestingly, this thread here bears this out. About half way through, the Klipsch owner provides pictures of his home addition and HT/family room.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/692856.aspx

Note the use of a Danley sound sub-horn integrated as part of the architectural revision.

Note the integration of a state-of-the-art HT room within a family living space, with Klipschhorns no less. Well done.

Raider, many thanks for the observations and compliments. You've obviously given this a lot of thought.

When we bought this house a year ago, it presented us with a lot of challenges. This part of the house (kitchen and adjoining family room, Carolina room) was badly outdated and needed a total reboot of the space. I was fortunate to have a pair of Klipschorns, a Belle, a pair of Cornwalls, etc. However, my entry-level KSW12 was going to be a really underspecified link in the mix.

Looking around for a sub, I hit on the usual suspects. Klipsch, SVS, Sunfire. These were kind of at the top of the list but it wasn't until I was pointed to Danley that his tapped HORN solution seemed to fit so well. Yes, the sub is big, but it has to be to do what it does. And, as you point out, we had the opportunity to "design it in" while doing the architectural layout. It will go into dedicated millwork.

From a Klipsch perspective, they've got to wonder what size the market is for a horn-loaded, coffin-sized box. I know Tom Danley is selling the DTS-20's to the custom installers, like Soundbroker. I think they're selling well but they won't make Tom rich (or any richer than he is already). They'll never sell as many as SVS will of their comparatively smaller units. So in this sense, Fred Klipsch may be perfectly happy to concede that niche market to Tom Danley and his team. As for buying Danley, it would only make sense if Tom saw a lot of synergy in the deal for him (Klipsch's audio heritage and market reach) and a genuine willingness on Klipsch's part to stretch to that esoteric part of the market that Heritage did so well in.

Chirs

[Raider]

The danley is a tappered horn and uses short and such mouth to create with the backwave of the horn to produce the bass response. Danley worked for many fields relating to nasa and he built subs more capable then the dts20 but is it logical to have a nuclear power generator in the backyard cause in the long run it is cheaper or just use electricity from the town like everyone else?

Also what you said above sounds more like a infinite baffle than horn loaded sub......

In the same way the bass bin of a Klipschorn loads into the corner of the room as the last fold of the horn, I was suggesting that Kilpsch could build a sub bass horn module that could load an architectural element (riser, false wall, corridor, etc) build to spec in a room to serve as the last fold of the horn. Not suggesting an infinite baffle at all, though many use these and get great results.

[Raider]

It is a legit question. But.

I myself, am a bit annoyed that some of the question implies a sell-out by Klipsch and failure to meet modern day demands.

The K-Horn goes to 32 Hz. Some want 16 Hz. Failure to provide this shows the company is trapped in an avuncular technology which can be easily updated if they were not living in the far distant past. Such is the implication.

Not so.

Bigger bass horns can be made. The problem, as descibed by others above, is that they become larger than the room in which they must sit.

Gil

Unfortunate that you are annoyed. Not my intent.

As noted in the thread ealier, Klipsch's business model seems to be working admirably well. They are acquiring, not being acquired. They seem to be pursuing a diverse model not unlike Harman International's collection of brands. If left to run autonomously, each division can benefit from synergistic resource access. Particularly noteworthy is that this is being done with private capital. So I admire the business model and its execution.

As far as any sell out or failure to meet modern day demands, in a post in the technical section regarding Klipsch's use of tapered array technology in some of their crossovers, you will find that I assert that Klipsch's selection of technology to complement the horn tweeter's inherent strengths is for lack of a better term, brilliant. So I have much respect for the current engineering group's capabilities. So much so that I will likely purchase a Reference system in the next few weeks, and I know no better validation of their engineering ability than to vote with my wallet.

If there is then, an implication it is that I am confident that there resides within Klipsch engineering the ability to bring a catalytic horn-loaded sub-bass product to market in an innovative way.

My observation is that there is an emerging market within home theatre and commercial systems for a product that Klipsch is well positioned to breach, if not dominate. Whether or not it is economical to do so may be another story.

But having come from the DIY side, I have seen posts where someone was building a horn in a false wall behind his front-projector screen. Another built a horn sub under the riser for his theatre seating. Another took a design from Fitzmaurice, and used it to load a horn he built ito an adjacent room of his basement. And I have also seen a flurry of activity with companies like Danley, Fitzmaurice, Pi and others that are all attempting to breach this market.

So I think Klipsch has the opportunity, with a flagship product to make a statement here.

[WMcD]

My response was a bit prickly. But I thought the question was a bit prickly too. Smile.

Actually I had a go round with a friend at the office today where there was mutually prickly-ness. Prickly-ness escallation where each thinks the other initiated the prickly-ness war and the the only dignified response is similar prickly-ness.

Eventually this leads to a stand off where both wish to avoid death by mutual prickly-ness.

We ended up good buddies again. Hopefully, same here. Smile.

It seems we are converging on the size issue. I'm pointing out that the cabinets can't get that large. You are pointing out that they can be integrated into the civil engineering. We agree!

Gil

[Raider]

My response was a bit prickly.  But I thought the question was a bit prickly too.  Smile.

Actually I had a go round with a friend at the office today where there was mutually prickly-ness.  Prickly-ness escallation where each thinks the other initiated the prickly-ness war and the the only dignified response is similar prickly-ness. 

Eventually this leads to a stand off where both wish to avoid death by mutual prickly-ness. 

 We ended up good buddies again.  Hopefully, same here.  Smile.

It seems we are converging on the size issue.  I'm pointing out that the cabinets can't get that large.  You are pointing out that they can be integrated into the civil engineering.  We agree!

Gil

 

No problem here.

I sometimes come across more agressively or blunt than i intend; something I'm working on.

I also have the inalienable right to be wrong. It's in the constitution somewhere I'm sure.

[Jay481985]

The danley is a tappered horn and uses short and such mouth to create with the backwave of the horn to produce the bass response. Danley worked for many fields relating to nasa and he built subs more capable then the dts20 but is it logical to have a nuclear power generator in the backyard cause in the long run it is cheaper or just use electricity from the town like everyone else?

Also what you said above sounds more like a infinite baffle than horn loaded sub......

In the same way the bass bin of a Klipschorn loads into the corner of the room as the last fold of the horn, I was suggesting that Kilpsch could build a sub bass horn module that could load an architectural element (riser, false wall, corridor, etc) build to spec in a room to serve as the last fold of the horn. Not suggesting an infinite baffle at all, though many use these and get great results.

If you make a custom made sub bass horn it will make the subwoofer infinitely more expensive. Even the Klipschorns are not catered per spec of room. also a big problem i do note with the cornerloading sub, it will have to be on one side or another making it prone to be able to tell which side the bass is.

[oldbuckster]

Wouldn't a speaker system that DIDN'T need a Sub be the best Idea? Are not Sub's really a matter of personal taste? Just asking..............

[Chris Robinson]

Wouldn't a speaker system that DIDN'T need a Sub be the best Idea? Are not Sub's really a matter of personal taste? Just asking..............

Good point, there. I think it is simply a question of design goals and the elasticity of the market. You could spec a speaker that will produce 20KHz down to 15Hz but as stated above, it will be the size of a small woodshed and will have a big pricetag.

The Klipschorn gets it nearly all right at a great price point. Plus it disappears into the corner, which is truly hard to believe if your first glimpse of one is freestanding.

As also stated before, music and effects below 35Hz wasn't a big deal until about 10 years ago with the widespread appeal of HT and DVD's. Now it's a lot more cost effective to select a good sub at the right price point from a great number of choices.

It's nice to see Klipsch back on top in the sub world, even if I chose a Danley in the end. It just met my needs a bit better than the Klipsch or SVS solutions, plus it was, unbelievably, more wife-friendly since she'll never see it!

Chris

[DrWho]

Wouldn't a speaker system that DIDN'T need a Sub be the best Idea? Are not Sub's really a matter of personal taste? Just asking..............

Would you want your tweeter to reproduce low notes too?

The way I see it, a subwoofer is just a part of the system optomized for covering a certain frequency range, just like how a tweeter covers the high end so well. In most cases it's just like converting your 3-way mains to a 4-way. It's not like increased bandwidth can have any negative side-effects (when properly integrated).

There are certain attributes pertaining to the low notes that make it not as huge of a compromise to have a single mono subwoofer, but in the ideal world you would definetly have a stereo configuration. And then having the lowest octaves being reproduced in a seperate cabinet have other benefits, the biggest being the ability to put the sub in a different position (since the corner isn't usually considered the best location for the midrange / tweeter).

I would very much like to see Klipsch design a hornloaded subwoofer, but I can't see how they can effectively build a turnkey solution that will sell through their dealer network. Dealers right now don't even wanna put cornwalls and khorns in their showroom - why in the world would they go even bigger? And due to the nature of small room acoustics ("pressure fields") the horn would need to be optomized for the room its going into - it's simply not feasible for Klipsch to pay someone to organize such a labor intensive endeavor. I think that made sense? Klipsch is a business so they gotta worry about making money first.

[oldbuckster]

Dr. WHO................2 Way.......don't need anymore......KLIPSCH has done it A Speaker that doesn't need a sub..........JUBILEE...........Really, Sub Woofers are an add on choice that the owner makes........No company sells speakers that need a sub, the owner decides they need it.......I'll bet the Klipschorn was not designed around a Sub Woofer, and it's a three way.......just my thoughts

[cjgeraci]

Yes, Paul designed the Klipschorn without ever envisioning that a sub would be needed. Then again, the Klipschorn was designed in the world of vinyl where there just was not much below 30hz. Today, however, many systems including mine have CD material, SACDs and DVD-Audio where you are going to go below 40 and below 30.......

Who does make a point. For many people, it is not a matter of "needing" a sub, even with primarily a musical system. Instead, if you run the right sounding sub (tight not boomy), and integrate it properly (aka bring in just on the lower end - and not too loud), you can even supplement speakers such as Klipschorns with subbage done correctly. I have heard it. The problem is that most people are so used to hearing subs "cranked," and so overdone, whether it be with music or movies that they conclude that the subbage distracts from their beautiful horns or nice conventional speakers ("Man, I am running six subs with twelve amps and I thought the house was going to collapse .... it was awesome....) . And of course, it sounds much more macho to say, my speakers don't need no stinking subwoofers. Yes, that may be correct. But, maybe a well done sub could compliment them nevertheless.

In my system, my two Altecs in the rear handle nice bass chores down pretty deeply. I could leave the sub off, even when running four speakers. I don't really need it. But, by bringing it in at 40 hz on down - just to cover the bottom - and by not overdoing it, my sub acts as a compliment on the very bottom - sort of like having four-ways. The key is integration.

And of course, when you switch over to movies only - you really want it for the depth charges and explosions, etc. hitting at 20 hz or lower.......

Carl.

[oldbuckster]

Well put.......a man that understands about subs.......

[Raider]

IMO, FWIW, a sub should just extend the system response to the lowest limit of hearing. Where only 30 or even 40 hz response was needed previously as dictated by the practical limitations of analog mediums, most all digital mediums are now mixed including material down to the threshold of hearing. Indeed, such material is now commonplace, if not expected by the consumer.

So all a sub should do is extend the response of the system lower to allow balanced representation of that lowest octave information. If the listener desires to hear that information.

The "need" for subs revolves around practical matters. There is no replacement for displacement. What a separate sub allows is for the main speakers to be a more managable size and be more easily integrated into the room in terms of visual aesthetics. It is certainly possible to produce a main speaker that extends through the lowest octave; its just that most folks can't/won't accept the size that is required.

The best subs as Carl points out are well-integrated into the system to the point that they draw NO attention to themselves, but allow focus on the MUSIC, which is for most folks the true measure of a system ( an inherent Klipsch strength for many).

So subs are basically a tradeoff of priorities. Is that lowest-octave information important enough for you to embrace the physical solution required for it? For many this is even a contextual decision. Lowest octave response might be considered essential in a home theatre, but not in a car. For a guy who is in his car alot, the opposite might be true. And in some cases, it might be desired in an HT application - except late at night. So its an individual decision of personal priorities.

And the system should accurately present the information, according to your priority, without drawing attention away from enjoyment of the experience.

[cjgeraci]

Nice post, Raider. Integration is a key reason why I like SVS subs so much. They have flat response and blend in so well with the other speakers in the room.

My feelings on the subject have certainly changed jusgt recently. As a kid in his early forties, I recently got back into audio again about five years ago (after being away from it for about 5-7 years due to a prior divorce, family, career, etc.) I reemerged with Klipsch Legend series and then Klipsch Reference. As I was rediscovering subs, I demoed many different models and went on a buying spree. My priorities at that time were finding what I thought was a "musical" sub - whatever that means. Two of my favorites in the category were a HSU sub and the Klipsch RSW-15. These subs had a "jazzy" type of sub sound that I guess would be called musical by some, and both were fine subs.

Since both subs had their own unique and distinctive sound, I could pick out where the sub was located in the large room, even when music was playing and despite those who said that you cannot discern subbage due to the nature of the longer soundwaves. I ended up keeping a HSU, and I thought that its distinctive but different sound really complimented my RF-7s in two channel.

Then, I got into Heritage, and my thinking changed as to what I was looking for in a sub. I rediscovered the sound of Klipschorns again (it had been ten years or so), and I started assembling my own 5.1 Heritage system. First with Cornwalls, then to Belles and finally, with adding Altecs into the mix. My goal then changed as I wanted a seamless blend for speakers and subs in the same room. That is, no matter how one turned their head in a room, they could not discern the difference between speakers and sub. It would blend. I also discovered that I really like the tighter sound of bass that three horn-loaded Belles provide across the front array. By that time, I already had two SVS subs in the house that I was using for HT primarily and decided to incorporate the bigger one into the music mix. I also started down the road of getting my Altec Valencias to sound like my modded Belles (modded crossovers, converting to three ways, tweeter choice and attenuators). And started playing with various sub calibrations and settings (including the active crossover point on the sub) to get the mix right in the room.

A sub that does its job well without drawing attention to itself compliments the tighter, faster horn-loaded Heritage bass sound, at least to my ears. So, when many people talk in terms of a "musical-sounding" sub being better for music. I would ask them what exactly makes them musical? It is the sound of the bass that sounds "good" and that you can notice. To me, a musical sub now means a sub that integrates seamless with my mains.

I am finally there, and it is a great place to be. Sitting in the preferred spot, you can turn your head around or swivel in the chair with eyes closed and not tell the difference between speakers or where the sub is located (even though the sub in closer to the chair than the speakers).

Carl.

P.S. It also comes down to the sound of the respective mains. To me, subs such as RSW-15s or various HSUs would sound (and maybe blend) better with e.g. Cornwalls who have a tubbier sounding bass.........

[Chris Robinson]

Carl, nice summary of your musical journey. Mine is similar although I have done less tweaking. I had some very good coaching early on and tried my best to benefit from their learning curves.

IChris

[Islander]

Physics cannot be got around. The MAGICO Ultimate speaker system, at $229,000 a pair, is a 5-way horn-loaded system, but the woofer is a 15-inch direct-radiating speaker. The mid-bass horn is a trapezoidal shape, 48 inches wide on its upper side and 60 inches long. The whole assemby is 94 inches tall, weighing 800lbs.

See: www.magico.net

That's a serious horn system, but a true bass horn would have been even bigger. Bigger horns have been built experimentally for stage use, but when the length of the horn gets to 10 feet or more, delay issues arise and everything gets more complicated.

Not to say that it can't be done, just that the cost and hassle outweigh the benefits.

Pat on the Island

[Jay481985]

umm did they actually build any speakers cause all the pictures are rendered computer animations.

[TheEAR]

Look around their site,looks like they have a good few pics of actual parts,and finished speakers.Must be very cosly.Milled parts,a la Krell.Not the cheapest wat to build speakers,must be more solid than a rock.

Classic horn loaded sub for home,not practical.Direct radiating high displacement woofers and high power switching amps is all that is needed.Look at TC Sounds upcoming $6000 subs.These will have more headroom anyone on this forum will ever need or begin to push.

[Jay481985]

with that new tcsounds sub system I would recommend getting that velodyne sms-1 to even it out. I bet those subs could easily drown out any normal speaker except maybe some heritage.

[TheEAR]

Sorry Jay,lets be realistic and use some common sense.The new TC Sounds monsters will are fully capable of drowning ANY Heritage speakers in a indoor environement.

Horns would put the TC SOunds to shame in a environement outside or in a huge space.As they PROJECT like no non horn loa=ded sub can(no matter if it moves 1L or 50gallons of air in one stroke).

For home use even the SVS Ultra using dual TV12's will keep up with any Heritage.

I am salivating,make this drooling about the new super sub by TC Sounds.And have decided to buy the RT-10 and 12D anyway.