What other than horns

[thepathlesstaken]

Do you want to try vintage speakers or newer (past 10 years) ones for this room?

My suggestion is to head to http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/ and check out what people say about various AR or KLH bookshelf or smaller floorstanders.

I have a pair of AR 91s that sound amazing in a 12' x 12' room. Course the big guns in my AR arsenal are the AR9s which are located in my main listening room 15 x 26.

AR3 / AR2x are some of the best bookshelf speakers I have heard when completely restored.

[D-MAN]

The benefits of an all-cone setup tend to be in the coherent soundstage and rock-steady imaging. This effect comes part and parcel with dynamic compression (and higher IM distortion).

The horns tend to be very clear with low distortion and increased dynamics, as dynamic compression is not a problem with horns. The so-called "soundstage and imaging" tends to suffer a bit (comparitively speaking) with horns due to the expanded coverage angles and less of a tendency to "beam".

TYpically, the main drawback to horns (besides their size) is a difference in pathway lengths between horns and non-horn speaker types, which tends to give the horn designs a "lag" on the bass, in particular, as well as different point-sources compared to other designs which MIGHT be linearly aligned for phase.

Some people think that this gives the direct-radiators an edge in imaging, but myself, I regard the inherent dynamic compression unacceptable. They are all trade offs, it depends on what aspect you want to enhance, and what aspects you want to "ignore".

Of course, some designs are worse than others...

The general effect of the best of the direct-radiator class (IMO) is that they can give a very enticing rendition of a soundstage, but that is unfortunately rather small in scope, such as the "orchestra on a table-top" that we have heard about. That's great, I suppose if you live in an apartment, or otherwise don't listen very loud at all, i.e., you don't ever "rock out".

I know it sounds like I'm bad-mouthing all direct-radiators, and I suppose I am, as an owner of a large pair of KEF's (which certainly can "rock out" as needed), I know whereof I speak... If you want to hear what the best-of-class sounds like, the KEF's are as good as any of the "tall-and-skinny" breed at their respective price range. They certainly have their advantages, as well as their drawbacks.

I have come to prefer the soundstage that horns produce BIG, WIDE, and FULL-SIZE.
The soundstage of the T&S (tall and skinny) class is only as wide as the separation between the two speakers. It has depth for days, is entirely stable, but that is still relatively small in overall width and not-so-much "life-size". They are smooth, precise, have lots of "air" and black-space, etc. All of the things that we read about speakers should have, etc.

How about the things they don't have - dynamic range (compared to horns, exclusively speaking). Yes, they DO have dynamics, just not like horns do. They lack the ability to sweep you along with dynamic changes, particularily part of orchestral work that I have become accustomed to listening to horns. They also create a smaller soundstage width (I suppose you could call this true "compression" although it is really not, but only appears that way when compared to corner horns in particular which produce a soundstage as wide as the room dimensions. That is what I would state is the main differences between the two. The KEF's in particular have always been fairly efficient, I used tubes on them.

Another important point to make I think is that my friends all tend to remember the KEF's as being the ones that "floored" them when I lived in an apartment years ago, even though they can hear the corner horns in my house today. The difference in presentation is the room, which is too acoustically horrible to contemplate. However, I gave up ever getting the KEF's to sound remotely OK in it - the horns do a much better job given the circumstances.

There has never come a time where I was ever even remotely convinced that the performer was actually standing between the speakers of the direct radiators, well maybe ONCE with Linda Rondstat (?) and orchestra. However, I have felt exactly that with the horns on MOST recordings.

Aside from their size, the horns (mine are corner horns) fit rather unobtrusively in the corners, where the direct radiators needed to be well out into the room. Electrostats are even worse as they broadcast on both sides, so therefore, I have ZERO interest in them as I am unwilling to live around them in the middle of the room, regardless of the sound quality that they produce. Nice but actually I think my horns are close-enough in sound quality to compete DIRECTLY, as well as being much more convienient to live with. Their size is only a problem if you have to move them!

I actually don't feel that I am sacrificing any floor space for the horns, what else would I put in the corners? Furniture? A chair? The corners are a virtual waste of space anyway.

Dana

[boom3]

D-man's exposition here is one of the best I've seen on the differences between horns and direct radiators. It's a good tonic for those folks who say "Oh, horns are just louder" whne they think of them at all.

i would add a subtle distinction I've noticed. When a sound trails off, as when a struck cymbal note decays, the horns allow me to hear it fade out into silence, "all the way down". Direct radiators, even very good ones, stifle this and the note dies away faster. My training tells me this is due to higher mass of the direct radiator. One of the current buzzwords in audio-loopiness is "rhythm". In the 70s we called this "good transient response". I don't see how you can have this (pick a term) feature with high mass.

[Lascaladan]

D-Man, really enjoyed your post. Questioning, however, the "lag in bass" of horns. Are you stating that your system has a lag in bass, or, all horn systems have this. A virtue of my LSs in my room is that the bass is the most lifelike I have ever been able to achieve on a system. Articulation and speed is 2nd to none, IMHO. My Janis W3 sub systems are packed away in a closet with many other speakers/amps crossovers etc., because I never listened to them. My LSs are lightning fast in the bass. No lagging. My first encounter with Khorns was also of this effect. The room and corners were fully supportive of the Khorns. They were set up along the shorter wall and from where I was sitting(I had pulled a chair closer than the owner had listened)it was incredible. I had said to myself that one day I would own Khorns, but never had the proper room/corner set up. Could you explain further what you are refering to? LSDan

[Def Leper]

You mention you want to see what you are missing with horns.

That's the whole point of a Klipsch horn system. When you switch, you'll notice what you were missing with a non-horn system. I switched to Cornwalls after years of listening to good JBL speakers (various) because I immediately noticed a much more detailed sound with the horns and also could hear instruments and nuances that were masked or hidden with non-horn speakers.

You are lucky enough to have not wasted time and money with other speakers.

[Tarheel]

mowntnbkr

Go to the thread on mega 70s recievers. I just saw your offer on the SX-1280 and responded.

Tarheel

[dhtman]

I was at an audio show in London today and heard a very nice pair of B&W stand mount speakers that went surprisingly deep. However they didn't come close to a pair of La Scalas.

Being a Brit, I was weaned on the British speaker sound and D-Man is right, it's compressed, distorted, colored and boring. Trade your horns and you're choosing boring. I don't find that dr speakers necessarily image better than horns - it's very much source and room dependent.

My suggestion is that you keep your horn speakers in your smaller room and work on improving the room's performance. Bass traps in the corners - a bookcase across each corner angle filled with paperbacks is a cheap way to go. Maybe some diffusers at the reflection points and lots of absorbent furniture and drapes.

[D-MAN]

Concerning "time-delay/phase alignment", I was referring to the fact that all bass horns have inherent "time-delay or phase-alignment" issues due to the different pathlengths.

This doesn't necissarily mean that its audible, such as with the LS, being that it has about 2 feet of path length, well below the 3 foot difference limit (3millisecs) that a human can discern (see- it's there, but inaudible). It's just a matter of physics that its there in the strictest technical sense. No, I don't notice any time delay issues with my bass horns, although I know that it is actually there, it has to be! They seem extremely "fast" and "tight" to me, although the difference in path length is about 5 feet, well within audible range. So why can't I tell? I think that the ES network I'm using on the woof/midrange has alot to do with that.

Dana