freddyi Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 what are Jubilee's woofer spec? what did PWK want as best compromise woofer in Klipschorn? how much HF did K-horn's folds choke? K33E is a low EBP driver. what did Jubile'ss higher xover point do to the presentation? (know is HF horn/xosver dependent) heres my CTS woofer K-horn in-room vs a Sentry http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/780972.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 What are your conclusions and recommendations? For example, your graphs my favor one or the other, but in actuality, the unfavorably graphed one may have sounded better. Our hearing is not flat. It is optimized for the middle bands. If you note folks with 12 band equalizers, you will notice their adjustment curve is inverse to the human hearing sensitivity curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Freddy- The radiation resistance of the driver is raised by horn loading. How much it is increased can be determined by comparing the driver impedance in free air vs. it's impedance working against the air load in the horn. The comparison will show that the real part of the impedance (the resistance) is increased significantly (~30%) from just beyond Fs to about 200Hz (200Hz is the mass-rolloff of the driver = 2Fs/Qes). Beyond that, the radiation resistance of the impedance approaches that of the driver in free air and horn does nothing for you (no more "horn loading"). The increase in radiation resistance is responsible for the increase in efficiency. The higher the driver mass rolloff, the higher the horn loading bandwidth is assuming the same driver Fs. Looking at the equation however, increasing Fs means losing bass response. Reducing Qes much below 0.35 means huge increases in magnet structure for small increases in Qes. So there is the trade-off. Increasing the upper limit of the radiation resistance of the Klipschorn is a real challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggerIsBetter Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 Flater is better Just because it's flat does not mean it will sound good I would prefer a "good" (ability to reproduce realistic dynamics with low distortion) speaker Eq'd over a "poor" speaker that has a nice graph. Don't be afraid of the EQ.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddyi Posted October 7, 2006 Author Share Posted October 7, 2006 its been 15-16 years since ran 2220 JBL in K-horn. There were some timbre differences but I also had tractrix wood midhorns (JBL LE5) then plus t-35 which was offset back to the midhorn's driver plane. IIRC - 2220 could not play as well below 50Hz as would be expected from its lower xmax. K33 always seemed "musical" - K43 somewhere in-between. re: horn's rasing of Z - looks likes theres more mass-loading shift (relative to short midbass like La Scala) to be seen than rise (?) - how would you interpret the k-horns Z plot? (eq- has helped a few k-couplers around their 3rd Z peak region) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted October 7, 2006 Share Posted October 7, 2006 what are Jubilee's woofer spec? what did PWK want as best compromise woofer in Klipschorn? how much HF did K-horn's folds choke? K33E is a low EBP driver. what did Jubile'ss higher xover point do to the presentation? (know is HF horn/xosver dependent) heres my CTS woofer K-horn in-room vs a Sentry http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/780972.aspx Freddyi, I don't know if what I've got to say helps to answer any of your questions or not (too technical for me). I also don't know if Roy would mind my comment here, I don't think he would because it seems fairly vanilla to me... (perhaps even some company PR thrown in?) I just happened to email with Roy this past week. My basic question to him (caused by JC building his Jubilee 'clone' or 'lookalike', which ever might be more appropriate) None the less, it dawned on me that Klipsch probably built the Jubilee to a pricepoint and made some compromises. I emailed Roy & basically asked him if he knew of any other drivers (at any expense) that would keep the same current charateristics of the Jubilee, yet allow it to dig deeper. His basic answer was, no. In fewer words to me than it's going to take me to tell you, he said they essentially built the Jubilee to maximize it's performance (yes, to their given design constraints) and given it's price point, there were no compromises made with drivers. If someone were to swap Jubilee drivers out for other drivers to gain something, they would lose something else in the equation. (perhaps an acceptable tradeoff for the person doing it?) As my intended meaning was to ask about keeping the current performance but allowing it to dig even deeper, (no tradeoffs), his answer was nothing else, other than current driver would suffice. I concluded they simply engineered it to be 'balls to the wall' good, price be damned and suceeded. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 "re: horn's rasing of Z - looks likes theres more mass-loading shift (relative to short midbass like La Scala) to be seen than rise (?) - how would you interpret the k-horns Z plot? " What is a "mass-loading shift"? Comparing the LaScala to Klipschorn is an apples to oranges comparison. The efficiency of a horn is measured by the increase in radiation resistance of a driver loaded in it. The frequency range over which the radiation resistance is raised is the horn's bandwidth. The bandwidth is defined by the LF cutoff of the horn and the mass-rolloff of the driver. A comparison plot of the driver impedance in free air and the driver impedance in the horn will provide a pretty good measure of the radiation resistance. As I've said before, the Klipschorn shows a 30% increase in the real part of the impedance between ~40-200Hz (3.4 to about 5 Ohms). That 1.6 Ohm increase is the radiation resistance reflected back to the voice coil thru the transduction factor of the motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 , the Klipschorn shows a 30% increase in the real part of the impedance between ~40-200Hz (3.4 to about 5 Ohms). That 1.6 Ohm increase is the radiation resistance reflected back to the voice coil thru the transduction factor of the motor. that, by itself, is a fascinating subject Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Remember the Khorn and La Scala are 3 way .........the Jubilee is a 2 way......don't really know if that matters........deep down I think it does......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 what did Jubile'ss higher xover point do to the presentation? My understanding is in the most lay terms imaginable. The sound of the Jubilee is smoother and cleaner than the Khorn. It's hard to describe since the Khorn is already fabulous in it's sound. I thought, hearing the Jubilee, that the sound is simply kicked up a notch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 what did Jubile'ss higher xover point do to the presentation? My understanding is in the most lay terms imaginable. The sound of the Jubilee is smoother and cleaner than the Khorn. It's hard to describe since the Khorn is already fabulous in it's sound. I thought, hearing the Jubilee, that the sound is simply kicked up a notch. Make that more like three notches...[] Mike (Mikebse2A3) tried to explain to me (during the trip to Hope), the benefits of a good 2 way, over a good 3 way. Although I understood the words he used, I still didn't "get it" until I had them home for a while and had some time to listen to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 what did Jubile'ss higher xover point do to the presentation? My understanding is in the most lay terms imaginable. The sound of the Jubilee is smoother and cleaner than the Khorn. It's hard to describe since the Khorn is already fabulous in it's sound. I thought, hearing the Jubilee, that the sound is simply kicked up a notch. Make that more like three notches...[] Mike (Mikebse2A3) tried to explain to me (during the trip to Hope), the benefits of a good 2 way, over a good 3 way. Although I understood the words he used, I still didn't "get it" until I had them home for a while and had some time to listen to them. My jaw dropped when I first heard that PWK was considering replacing the khorn with the jubilee in the heritage lineup. If that is not a testimonial for a speaker I don't know what is and if there is one speaker that is hard to top it is the KHorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 what did Jubile'ss higher xover point do to the presentation? My understanding is in the most lay terms imaginable. The sound of the Jubilee is smoother and cleaner than the Khorn. It's hard to describe since the Khorn is already fabulous in it's sound. I thought, hearing the Jubilee, that the sound is simply kicked up a notch. Make that more like three notches...[] Mike (Mikebse2A3) tried to explain to me (during the trip to Hope), the benefits of a good 2 way, over a good 3 way. Although I understood the words he used, I still didn't "get it" until I had them home for a while and had some time to listen to them. My jaw dropped when I first heard that PWK was considering replacing the khorn with the jubilee in the heritage lineup. If that is not a testimonial for a speaker I don't know what is and if there is one speaker that is hard to top it is the KHorn. Here a comment Roy's emailed me the horn expansion on the jub is much more known and controlled and loads better. the distortion data show this. where the khorn is 3% to 1% the jub is 1% to .3%. Somewhere or another (I can't find it) he said they designed the Jubilee to replace the Khorn but it ended up being SO much better, it deserved a classification of it's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 "As my intended meaning was to ask about keeping the current performance but allowing it to dig even deeper, (no tradeoffs), his answer was nothing else, other than current driver would suffice." "I concluded they simply engineered it to be 'balls to the wall' good, price be damned and suceeded." Richard. Man....don't change a thing. You have the "tried and true" drivers in there. They dug deep enough for me. Very balanced and accurate system with no loss of the low end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 "As my intended meaning was to ask about keeping the current performance but allowing it to dig even deeper, (no tradeoffs), his answer was nothing else, other than current driver would suffice." "I concluded they simply engineered it to be 'balls to the wall' good, price be damned and suceeded." Richard. Man....don't change a thing. You have the "tried and true" drivers in there. They dug deep enough for me. Very balanced and accurate system with no loss of the low end. lol, well JC, I must admit I'm really NOT looking to do that. I was asking more out of curiosity than anything. However, had his answer been "why YES, I do know of some kick hiney woofers you can swap with that will obliterate the existing drivers..." Perhaps I'd been forced to contemplate... As it was, I really expected the answer that I got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 The Khorn is operating the K33E at about 30% (my estimate) below optimum efficiency by compression. This tends to flatten out the response but limits the bandpass. It crosses over at about 400-450 or so, depending on which crossover point you want. The lower frequency below cutoff are roll off at -12db vs the Jubilee's -18db (if I remember correctly). The Jub will simply drop off below Fc with a more rapid slope than the Khorn, being that it is close to being fully annulled and the Khorn isn't. The Jubilee is operating at pretty much full efficiency for the driver(s). The Jub has a slightly larger throat area (90 sq. in. total) vs the Khorns 78. The Jubilee will theoretically achieve a higher SPL with lower distortion for 3 reasons, one being larger throat area, the second being the rapid flare rate at the throat (almost twice of the Khorn throat flare rate, i.e., 50Hz) and the third being symetrical folding in the same plane. It may also expectedly have better transient response due to the folding and the use of smaller diameter drivers. In effect, the Jubilee has its strong points (its upper bandpass) and its weaknesses, the lower frequencies below Fc. The Khorn has its strongpoints (its lower frequency response), and its weaknesses, namely the upper frequency corner limit. If one was to chose a set of drivers for the Jubilee that wasn't as near to being fully annulled, it is conceivable that the lower frequency range below Fc could be increased somewhat, but the tradeoff would be expectedly be in efficiency across the bandpass, possibly including (at least in part) a reduction of the upper frequency corner. So it depends! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.