SVS sub + RF-7s?

[TheEAR]

Ok little ones,about tome I got home. Long day.

Lets start a longer more detailed post here.

I would not call SVS a joke,as their reputation was built on quality products that perform a good deal above the prices they are proposed at.And they are almost all vented designs(optimal in this case)offer very solid extension as well as above average SPL(down deep,way above the masses).

Also any sub can overpower any given speakers(just a matter of setting on the pre/pro at +12dB and the sub to max and corner load the sub,plus set the maons to -12dB) []

Any sub no matter how capable can be made to match the speakers to near perfection,just a matter of knowing the basics and using common sense.The LEVEL,PHASE and FREQ.Cutoff are your best friends here.Plus a little on the pre/pro side.Placement is most important,with ANY subwoofer.As you cannot ignore room acoustics,and positive as well as very negative effects reulting from room placement when sitting in YOUR fave listening chair...any true music lover or audiophile has to have his/hers perfectly positioned chair.Or else you are a fat belly beer guzzler with little class.

In the great subwoofer I have found in my many many years in audio and as a subwoofer fanatic.I have found a good few very worthy of the RF7's as mains,and that fir almost any budget(you have RF7's you have a budget that is serious enough for a quality sub,else you better save).

In the list I would put in no special order:

Paradigm Servo 15 ,simply put a reference sub,clean,will dig deep and play louder most can handle.Refinement and power,very impressive even when matched with speakers a good deal better than RF7's(like Dynaudio's Contour S5.4's)

Paradigm PW2200 and 2100 ,quality low cost subs,both have some good output down low,play at satisfactory levels with no strain when pushed.

HSU VTF3 ,a full class level up from the PW2200 and below the Servo15 this is a great compromise sub,great extension and output under a grand.

SVS Ultra series(TV12 woofer) ,a step up from the VTF in extension and output. An HT wonder and great for music.Pretty much a killer sub.

Revel B15 ,a sligtly more capable sub in the vein of the Servo 15,more dynamic...explosive.Goes less deep and packs thunder down to 25Hz.

Aerial Acoustics SW12 ,a musicx sub,bests the Ultra and even the Servo 15 in integration and overall bass quality.Amazing piece,not cheap be ready to spend.And not for the SPL maniac,still capable of around 110dB @20Hz in a mid sized room(with a nice room gain).

Velodyne HGS18 and DD18 ,both are classic servo control beasts.Like the Servo 15 from Paradigm these will be at their best when reproducing anything around 100dB and under,simply bottomless bass...or close.Sealed subs at thier best.

Sunfire Signature and the EQ version. Most capable minature subs ever made,the HGS12 and SPL1200 can run for cover.Near pipe organ capable and will amaze even the fridge sub fanatics.Great for music(to be cut very low,50Hz and below)and amazing HT subs.

Velodyne SPL1200 ,a very strong music and good HT sub,tight and controlled.In its size and price range a winner.

B&W ASW4000 ,very potent,ported sub.Quite clean and the 801's 15" woofer really packs a punch and can shake it when needed.This is a very overlooked sub here in the USA and Canada,yet a great one.

Klipsch RSW15 ,one of my fave punchy subs.Even cut at a high 80hz it is not boomy,will hit you like a ton of bricks.Simply must have for any sub collection. And descends quite deep,fair extension for its size.More output down deep than most,know for its 50-80Hz frequency range where it can top 120dB in most rooms.

Klipsch RT-12d and 10d , More linear replacement of the RSW series.Better balance and will integrate better with speakers other than Klipsch.Extends quite deep and is non intrusive,live the servo control subs.

Klipsch THX subs(two units), Klipsch best subwoofers EVER.By far the most output and deep freq. extension.Very good integration,to be matched with very capable mains,in a smaller room.Simply crushing output at 30.Hz and very good @ 20Hz!Among the elite of world subwoofers.

I am sure the Danley and TC Sounds ANADA will jopin these and best the above in output down deep.These two are more for people ready to take the last steps in subwoofer performance.I have not hear either.Based on specs and reputation only I would put my hand in the fire and say the ANADA will be by a good measure the best sub I may ever own.Yes I have and will get these.

So,there are many valid subs for the RF7's and other quality mains.Above all INTEGRATION and time spent on setup are paramount.A well integrated $1000 quality sub will give better results than a badly integrated $5000 unit.And it will be a shocking difference

Also before I forget,Paradigm's Seismic subs are very very good.The Seismic 12 is capable of deep clean sub bass.And will integrate very well with any larger speakers,again cut it at 50Hz and lower.

Plus Dynaudio's SUB500,ah this is an audiophile sub,as clean as the Velodyne HGS/DD subs and has solid impact for HT use.Fit and finish are Aerial like,and you know the driver is from a company building someof the very best drivers in the world.

This is it for now.

[wuzzzer]

Thanks to everyone (especially TheEAR) for your comments and suggestions!

My room is 10' wide, 23' long, 7' tall. It is not a very large room. I am looking at a SVS 16-46 PC-Plus sub. http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-plpow1.cfm

I can purchase this sub for $575 that is less than an hour away to drive. The seller has the original box for the sub. I figure, worse case scenario I can always resell the sub on eBay.

I'm not looking for bone crushing bass, just something that I can cross over at 80hz or so and will dig deeper than my RF-7s.

[DrWho]

so I'm illustrious now? lol

I must confess that I'm not a 'huge fan' of SVS (whatever that

means)...probably because for the longest time I saw them as just a

fancy DIY speaker being built for you - but then again, what niche

audio product isn't? One might argue that SVS is more of an alternative

to building something yourself, where the real bang for the buck with

subwoofers is to be found (not to mention tailored performance to your

room). I'm also not a fan of down-firing and I hate how they never

provide solid specs. Maybe I don't know where to look?

Anyways, that's all just an opinion and I have no problem with SVS as a

company. I also understand that the room dictates a lot of the sound

quality - especially with bass, so my less than exuberant experiences

with SVS could very well have been room related issues.

I would definetly agree that they make great bottom feeders for movies,

but perhaps a bit on the boomy side for music. Seems to be a pretty

popular viewpoint at least. For what it's worth, I wouldn't let any of

my post be a dissuasion. Many don't want to build their own subs and

the Klipsch / other nice brand stuff is much more expensive.

[damonrpayne]

My 20-39pci is a pretty good sub for $599 or whatever I paid for it, but my next sub will be one of the new klipsch digital ones or a custom built.

Trey did some outdoor testing several years ago and found that in some cases the SVS subs were not delivering the real bass tones at lower frequencies, but you were just hearing the harmonics.

DrWho: I have a closet in my new room that's not being used, its about 9' tall, 10' wide, 4' deep. Could we just turn that into a 360 ft^3 bass enclosure? Use the drywall as the motorboard? Let me know when you have a design ready.

[WolfsBane]

LOL... Doc, I'm not sure that what they actually implied had to do with grey hairs... []

SVS has recently come out with a couple of front firng subs, (in addition to the PB10-NSD). The new PB12-NSD is a 12" front firing driver, front firing 4" flared port sub. It is getting quite a rave review at various sites. The SB12 + is their first 12 " front firing sealed sub. It is small, and it is designed for small rooms where space is at a premium. It will get down to around 22hz, (20hz in room), but it is not designed to compete with it's larger brothers in a large room. It is pretty small box, (14 x 14 x14). Small compared to it's larger PB12-NSD sibling which is a 19 x 18 x 25 box meant to go down low with authority and plenty of overhead in a large room. Like you, I prefer a front firing sub. It has nuances that appeal to my personal preference that a down firing sub lacks.

IMO, when it comes to subs, it's all about compromise and personal preferences.

[WolfsBane]

Oppss!!! Sorry.... duplicate post.

[TheEAR]

One surprising read is that SVS is a bit BOOMY! What does BOOMY mean ...exactly?

Define boomy,I have my own very valid definition.

To me a boomy speaker or sub produces too much energy around 60-100Hz and this energy is also present in the upper frequency of bass resulting is bass coloration.Some boom may come directly as a result of poor cabinet damping/construction.

SVS is in no way boomy,you want to hear boom go listen to a Klipsch KSW sub or the best example of al time...the SONY WM40(a POS worthy of the POS of the century award!).Sony makes some boomy subs,so colored your ears will beg for mercy.

Boom is amplified so to speak by room acoustics,take for example a Sunfire sub,I even read some ignorant clowns describe them as being boomy! First of all a tiny rock solid cabinet configured the way Sunfire subs are CANNOT BE BOOMY.The boom comes from subs tuned too high,pad porting and cabinets,sometimes from cheapo woofers(less pronounced).

To ice the cake of manure,I even read a sub cut at 40hz was boomy! This is a pure NONSENSE.As boom is above 60Hz.Lack of definition and bass roundness if you want is not boom.You want boom go listen to a B0$e acoustic mess system.

[DrWho]

Boomy for me has nothing to do with frequency response. It has to do with "ringing" of notes (more a time domain thing). You can achieve the same sound in the studio by adding a little reverb to the signal.

[TheEAR]

Ringing of notes,yes that is the word. Ringing of notes and massive frequency irregularities = SONY WM40 if you have a chance one day listen to this sub,you will hear plenty of ringing and nasty peaks as high as mount Everest!

SVS boomy...hardly any ringing of notes.Could have been the room and setup.SVS subs must be cut low ,like Sunfire. Klipsch RSW / RT,Velodynge HGS/DD can be cut higher and sound pretty good,at the expense of localisation.

[cjgeraci]

"SVS is in no way boomy,you want to hear boom go listen to a Klipsch KSW sub or the best example of al time...the SONY WM40(a POS worthy of the POS of the century award!).Sony makes some boomy subs,so colored your ears will beg for mercy.

Boom is amplified so to speak by room acoustics,take for example a Sunfire sub,I even read some ignorant clowns describe them as being boomy! First of all a tiny rock solid cabinet configured the way Sunfire subs are CANNOT BE BOOMY.The boom comes from subs tuned too high,pad porting and cabinets,sometimes from cheapo woofers(less pronounced).

To ice the cake of manure,I even read a sub cut at 40hz was boomy! This is a pure NONSENSE.As boom is above 60Hz.Lack of definition and bass roundness if you want is not boom.You want boom go listen to a B0$e acoustic mess system."

Excellent points as always, Arthur. I have owned two SVS subs, and neither of them I would classify as "boomy." If anything, I think some would complain because of SVS's flat response and a sound that does not leap out at you and blends well. Your other comment about crossover points also has merit. In my opinion, one should strive to minimize overlap between the mains and the sub, and crossing your sub down lower can help avoid any sort of "boominess" (my main SVS is crossed over at 50hz).

Carl.

[TheEAR]

Boom is alot of cabinet resonance(poor cabinet integrity as well as inadequate internal damping),lack of control(woofer/amp...damping)and bad tuning.Can a woofer (any woofer)mounted in a IB configuration be boomy? You will have to look/listen long and hard to find a design this rotten and incompetent.

Long live the Sony WM40 the most praised sub by deaf beer belly people and tose who do not know better. The cleanest bass notes sound like trash can noise coupled with infrasonic farts.

LOTR stairs collapsing sounds like a pizza eating contest with many contestants lowering the stomach pressure! Sony WM40 gets my POS Award of the YEAR,each year.

[WolfsBane]

In my case, I have my SVS several feet away from the corner, (did so to keep it's inherent linearity as flat as humanly possible). I calibrate it using the AVIA disk and a Rat Shack SPL meter. There is absolutely no hump in the 50hz to 60hz region in this sub. And no other "boominess" whatsoever, (which is in some ways an accomplishment for a ported sub). Someone described the SVS boxes, ( and I have found this to be particularly true with the new PB12-NSD), as a WYIIWYG, (What You Input Is What You Get) subwoofer. During musical applications, this sub can easily dissapear in its integration with your mains. So much so, that at times you wonder if the low frequencies are coming from your mains, and not your sub. You only get out of it what the source coded in your recordings intended... nothing more, nothing less. It's easy to beleive that your sub is barely doing anything... until you pop in a DVD with some tracks down in the low 20hz, (specially in DTS). And then it's like... HELLO!!!!. Whatching WOTW in DTS with this sub is a trip. The combination of LFR and LFE is fantastic.

[Fish]

EAR,the Sony WhaMo40 is a well known GIANT killer,any beginner knows that.

[wuzzzer]

Can anyone give me a suggestion as to how I should hook up the SVS sub? See this thread:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/810127.aspx

Thanks!

[TheEAR]

EAR,the Sony WhaMo40 is a well known GIANT killer,any beginner knows that.

Yes I know,just look on Audioreview.com and search for the Sony WM40,the reviews from the experts are hilarious.Many bums brag how a dirty towel and some Sludge Podge a la Dodge transformed a carboard box,clippy low power amp with near zero daming and a $5 woofer capable of displacing as much air as a tweeter into a killer! [:$]

Because Sludge Dodge creates dampingg,extra wattage and more linear travel...the cone has added weight and this will make it even slower and less responsive.The only gain is reducing gorotesque boom.

[WolfsBane]

Can anyone give me a suggestion as to how I should hook up the SVS sub? See this thread:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/810127.aspx

Thanks!

As The Ear suggested, the best advise would be to use the receiver's sub line out, and connect the other end at the sub by way of a "Y" adapter. All the receiver should be doing is providing an adequate source signal to the sub and managing the LFR and LFE being sent to all speakers... thats it. The sub's amp should be doing the work for LFE and any LFR being sent to it. And this is very important... let the SUB do the work for the low frequencies. It will relieve your amp and your main speakers from a pretty big burden, and your mains will sound much, much better.

[lo123]

I have a PC-Ultra, SVS advised that I did not need to use a Y-adapter when using the LFE output from my receiver, just pick on channel. You might want to check with them on that, email their customer service dept.

Does anyone run speaker outputs directly to their sub? I am considering playing with this as an option, maybe use the B-channel output from my Denon 1804, but not daisy-chained to actual speakers, just run to the sub. The best response I get currently is from DVDs. CDs are variable, FM radio does not have much predictable bass. Guess I'd have to switch which input was active on the SVS (LFE versus speaker inputs) for each source if I ran both speaker B-channel outputs and the LFE.

My sub is in the corner of a family room, WAF directed, so one of these days I have to do the Avia/SPL meter cal, but alternate placements are not an option right now. But just with rough settings DVDs are certainly impressive.

[wuzzzer]

As The Ear suggested, the best advise would be to use the receiver's sub line out, and connect the other end at the sub by way of a "Y" adapter. All the receiver should be doing is providing an adequate source signal to the sub and managing the LFR and LFE being sent to all speakers... thats it. The sub's amp should be doing the work for LFE and any LFR being sent to it. And this is very important... let the SUB do the work for the low frequencies. It will relieve your amp and your main speakers from a pretty big burden, and your mains will sound much, much better.

With my receiver, hooking it up like that isn't the best option though (As far as I can tell). Its a 2 channel receiver, no LFE output, no option for adjusting speaker size such as 'large' or 'small.'

The subwoofer output on my receiver is in stereo, it has both left and right Sub outs. Because of that I don't need to use a Y adapter. If I hook a sub up to that output, my receiver isn't going to know if there's a sub or not as far as what the receiver amplifies. Using the sub output will result in the subwoofer and the amplifier amplifying the lowest bass signal.

However, the SVS sub I'm getting has both a low level line-in and line-out. And, my receiver has pre-ins and pre-outs that are separate from the sub-out. The subwoofer will filter out the bass information that is passed from its line out to the receiver's pre-in. SO, that's why I thought it might be better to hook it up that way. Using the receiver's pre-ins and outs and the sub's line-ins and line-outs will result in the subwoofer handling the bass amplification and the receiver handling the rest.

I will try it both ways, but I have a feeling that I'll end up not using the sub out on the receiver.

[mas]

With an SVS PC-Ultra there is no benefit to running an LFE out via Y cord to both inputs of the SVS sub. Only one input connected is sufficient.(See "Hookup" SVS Manual, p.4)

An advantage to using the SVS crossover rather than the crossover in your receiver is that the SVS PC Ultra does have a parametric EQ built in as well. If you do this you will want to run a left and right feed to the sub, setting the crossover switch to 'enable' on the SVS amp panel and run a L&R feed back to the Main L&R inputs on the receiver.

PCUltaManual.pdf

[DrWho]

Wuzzer, in theory I like your approach more, but I can see three things you might want to consider:

1) The subwoofer "high-frequency" outputs that you'll reroute back to your mains are often fixed to a certain crossover point. Say around 150Hz, which is way outta the ballpark you're aiming for. I'm not sure if this is the case with this particular sub, but it's definetly worth checking to see if the crossover dial affects both the sub and high-outs. Heck, some of them send a full-range signal too.

2) This approach assumes that the phasing between the mains and the sub is going to be adequate. Any deviation will result in holes in the frequency response in the crossover region - though that may not be a very bad thing. Just something to keep in mind. You're talking on the order of 3dB...

3) Longer signal path - You're now sending the output of your reciever into the probably not too great electronics of the back of the subwoofer. Though they're probably more than adequate for the subwoofer / low frequencies, you'll have to watch out for degredation with the higher frequencies. Sometimes it can be really quite awful - sometimes you can't tell the difference.

I don't feel any of these issues are super huge, but they're something to keep in mind when comparing between the two ways. The only downside I can see to sending the subwoofer out to the subwoofer is as you mentioned - sending the full-range signal to the mains. However, Bell Labs has done some research that indicates stereo subwoofage is still an important aspect of music - setting the sub to dial in where the mains drop-off is a certainly valid approach (and doesn't have any of the mentioned issues).