Brockybear Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Hello from Australia I have noticed a much lighter bass responce from my Klipschhorns when driving them with a SET amp. I guess it has something to do with the damping factor of valve amps and transistor amps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Hello Brockybear, You have made a start... However, there a number of other considerations also (current, distortion, out-and-out power and the list goes on) How do like your K-Horns? What amps have you been using to drive them? Good Luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 could it just be the lack of A$$ in the amp ...???....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Brockybear, I ran my Khorns for a considerable season with 2A3 SET amps and was well pleased with the sound and thought the midrange was absolutely fabulous... liquid, as they say. Bass is something the SET just doesn't do as well as higher powered amps. When I started paying attention to the Khorn sound with higher powered amps, I did notice a difference in bass dynamics that was more appealing in the higher powered amps. Don't really know how to describe the difference, but there is something that gets optimized with higher power. I think some SET amps do better than others. In case you are using silver interconnects, take them out for some plain jane copper IC's. Silver IC's sacrifice some bass, to my ears. Welcome to the forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brockybear Posted October 18, 2006 Author Share Posted October 18, 2006 I love my Klipschhorns, its like a huge soundstage opens up before me. The sound is incredibly accurate and natural. The original amplifier was made here in OZ by Peter Stein. I had a ME25 preamp and ME 550 Model 11 poweramp with the 160 000 Mf capacitor upgrade. I think ME sold well overseas and had good reviews. Given 100 watts power output it was more than enough to drive the Khorns but I found the sound a bit harsh at higher volume levels. The Mudlark A205 SET amps are made locally by David Whiby and are 9 watt monoblocks. The Khorns seem to sound better driven by the valve amps and I found myself hearing things in old recordings I had not noticed before. The bass seemed softer and this was one of the main differences I noticed between my solid state amp and my SET amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Brockybear Dampening factor relationship between the speaker and the amplifier can be increased by increasing the impedance of the speakers. For example, an autoformer such as the atlas af140 or crown ct170 can be used to increase your speakers apparent impedance. There is a trade off. Bring your k-horns up to 12 ohms, will cut your max amp output power, but the dampening factor will be increased. There is also some insertion loss due to the DCR of the autoformer. The AF140 has an insertion loss of .6 db I currently have my speakers running at 30 ohms using a 5X multiplication factor. Dampening factor increases, distorion decreases dramaticlly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted October 18, 2006 Moderators Share Posted October 18, 2006 could it just be the lack of A$$ in the amp ...???....[] Still laughing........... You really know how to beat around the bush ! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erland Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I can not refer to any experience with your amps, and my listening experience with Khorns are limited (yet), but as written earlier in this thread, there are HUGE differences in SET amp. A frend of mine use to run his DIY Hammer horns on a CJ11A with very good results. Then we hooked up a Audionote SET KT88 amp of about 12W(yes in not usual with KT88 as SET, but this one are). The result was jawdropping, with dynamics and bass even better than the 4 times more powerful CJ11A. I have heard similar results with SET amps several times, and there are two keywords that follows SET systems that deliveres good bass;.... MASSIVE powersupply & very high quality output transformers. As a reference look for example at what Borderpatrol (www.borderpatrol.co.uk) deliver as outboard PSU for their 300B SET amp, or the Audionote kits PQ 300B/2A3 amp. I agree that you generally and more easily will get a better bass with a large transistor amp, but then you loose that lovely liquid mid/top part. By going SET you can have it all. Next year I am going to build a couple of SET blocks to go with my Khorns (under build). I am going to build around a pair of Tommy Hørning torroid OPT's that I managed to buy. The handmade TH torroids are of several SET "gurus" considered "the best there is" even when Tango and Audionote OPT's are compared. When the amps project are proceeding, I will post a picture-thread on the forum. Good luck and enjoy your Khorns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lech Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Klipschorn and SET are borned for each other. A transistor amplifier whats so ever is not a competitor. Pure single end Triods type 2A3 and 300B fits perfectly and deliver whats expected during the whole range. BR Lech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I think that's part of the brilliance of these monsters. You can put 2 watts into them and they'll sound fantastic (though different than putting 300 watts into them). You can also put 300 watts into them and they can also sound fantastic (though different than putting 2 watts into them). both presume quality watts of course [A] It intrigues me how a single sheet of canvas (Khorn) can cause so many different viewpoints. All can't be right, yet all can't be wrong. Dumb question here... is there ANY other speaker made, that can cause such polar views? (I ask because I'm not familar with everything and don't frequent other speaker sites to know their tendencies) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 The problem with SET is that they don't like non-linear impedance responses. The complex nature of the bass horn introduces a lot of peaks and dips in the impedance that will cause any SET amp to output a non-linear frequency response. A solution would be to introduce some filtering in the crossover to present a linear impedance to the amplifier (I think a transformer might approximate the same thing too). Or you can just go with a real amplifier topology. Anyone that claims transistors can't keep up needs to get out and listen to a few more amps (and more live music). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brockybear Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 I agree that there is some incredible solid state amps out there with specs that would blow any valve amp out of the water. On paper there is no competition but when you sit an listen to a good class A SET valve amp the sound will give some of the best Mosfets a run for thier money. Many would agree that they simply sound better. My amp doesnt use 300B valves but Sovtek 6L6 beam power valves connected as triodes. There is no negative feedback and the damping factor is only >2 with total power output of 9 watts; THD is 1% As suggested by other board members the bass responce could be a factor of power and the output transformers. I experimented by switching the amp to stereo which gave me 20 watts per channel and a noticable increase in Bass with a drop in definition in the Midrange. Switching back to 9 watt Mono dropped the Bass responce but opened up the Midrange definition. My amp has switchable high tension voltage which I set to High. This improved the Bass responce out of sight by giving me a few more watts of available power. In the end I am willing to sacrifice of some bottom end responce for the increase in Midrange and Hi Frequency definition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 You might consider bi-amping? Get a solid PP 50W tube amp on that bass bin and you'll never have any problems - and then you can get rid of that autoformer on the midrange as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 "Or you can just go with a real amplifier topology. Anyone that claims transistors can't keep up needs to get out and listen to a few more amps (and more live music)." I have been wondering about this. At what point do SS and tube melt? Does it take a certain class of tube amp to reach a desireable standard? Can an SS amp at an equiv class go head to head? I have 3 SS amps that were top of the line from a given manufacture over the last 10 years. They sound the same to me. I think once you reach a certain performance level, you are really talking personal preference. Wondering how much $$ in tube equipment would it take to improve on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 what kills me is the thousands spent on amps and no time spent with the acoustics of the room. Another criteria I hold to is that a "good amp" is one that can play all genres well. I don't think this is very widely accepted though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Roland Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 I haven't had my old beat up but wonderful sounding K-horns for even a year yet, but it has been really fun listening to different equipment over them. One thing's for sure...they reveal more about upstream components than other speakers I have tried. I have listened to Dynaco Mk III's, a Hafler 220 and my current favorite the Audio Research VT 100, reccently back from ARC for a fine-sounding tune up. While we're talking about amps, just don't forget the pre amp either. I have just been trying out various tubes in my little Dynaco PAS-2 and every one sounds different. I just tried a Tung-Sol this evening and it sounded very different from the Electro-Harmonics it replaced--richer, creamier with better defined bassWhat fun this all is! Enjoy your K-horns! George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 I agree about the preamp! When I had my moondog 2A3 SET amps with 3.5 watt going thru my Luxman SS preamp the mids sounded great but bass was okay but not good. Hooked up my Ground Grid tube preamp and bass improved noticeably. How big is your listening area? My living room is 15 x 15 x 8 and with La Scalas SET amps had good bass but not great. If your listening area is very large the SET amps will not have the watts to get the bass you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brockybear Posted October 23, 2006 Author Share Posted October 23, 2006 I dont use a preamp when using a CD player. I have a Shanling CD-T100 Valve CD Player and can control output via the unit. Otherwise I just use a Volume Pot inline with the valve amps. I use a phono preamp when playing vinyl. I think its best to keep the signal path as simple as possible. Room size is 12ft X 14ft with 12ft Ceilings and wooden floor. The Khorns seem to be the right size for the room area. My valve amp uses 6L6 valves and I wonder if I should have gone with 300b or KT88's ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ki Choi Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 DrWho: Can you elaborate on bi-amping the Khorns for SET for mid/high and SS muscle for bass bin? I thought about removing the bass bin connection from the AA crossover and drive the mid/high through the AA crossover and SET amp from from a Room Correction Preamp output such as TACT 2.2X and run the sub output of 2.2X with SS amp to drive the bass bin to solve crossover and time alignment of the bass drivers, etc... Ki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Hi, Erland: I noticed in your equipment list your DIY preamp is based on the 5687. I think it is probably the best driver tube I have used, and was wondering if you might share more about this linestage design. I am also interested in building, and look forward to seeing the pictures of your new project. Regards, Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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