Best day ever!! Yeehaw

[Jay481985]

[] Stop asking about GOTHAM GOTHAM,when I get one I will post pics. Just to show off one of the baddest subs on planet Earth.And the most formidable sealed sub save for the Krell MRS.

I would like to see a comparo JL Audio GOTHAM VS Krell MRS,two of the most capable sealed monsters to grace the sub world.

I think the Krell may have a slim lead in SPL.

The Krell MRS uses the tcsounds subwoofer that is basically a tc-2000. I suppose that if you add the 5400 the mrs would be alot more formidable.

[TheEAR]

Yes the MRS is outdated,the price Krell slapped on this monster is a bit high.Price performance must be poor.

I agree the custom milled aluminum cabinet is very costly,the custom Krell amp is the most formidable of any powered sub.But the displacement is a bit(good bit) lacking for a 30K sub.

The Gotham uses an amp that is no joke,two woofers that will outdisplace the twin "outdated" TC SOunds units Krell uses.Unless they changed the woofers by now,highly doubt this as the LMS5400 will not drop in,as it is much deeper and the gigantic motor structure would not fit the way the MRS is laid out inside(amp taking a big chunk of space!).

..the ANADA is gone from TV SOunds webside. [:'(] They better have onother go and offer subs using thier LMS5400 woofers. In the worst case I will model a box and get two 15" LSM5400 anyway.And Crown power amps.

I could get at least FOUR JL Audio GOTHAM subs for the price of one MRS!And one Gotham goes toe to toe with the MRS! Talk about value. Plus you have to consider SVS's Ultra using dual TV12's,even better deal...and an IB sub...a price performance you cannot beat!

[Jay481985]

Yes the MRS is outdated,the price Krell slapped on this monster is a bit high.Price performance must be poor.

I agree the custom milled aluminum cabinet is very costly,the custom Krell amp is the most formidable of any powered sub.But the displacement is a bit(good bit) lacking for a 30K sub.

The Gotham uses an amp that is no joke,two woofers that will outdisplace the twin "outdated" TC SOunds units Krell uses.Unless they changed the woofers by now,highly doubt this as the LMS5400 will not drop in,as it is much deeper and the gigantic motor structure would not fit the way the MRS is laid out inside(amp taking a big chunk of space!).

it will fit and they have inquired using the 5400

..the ANADA is gone from TV SOunds webside. [:'(] They better have onother go and offer subs using thier LMS5400 woofers. In the worst case I will model a box and get two 15" LSM5400 anyway.And Crown power amps.

tcsounds chose to do away from the near diy box, they want to have a more user friendly system that is comparable to the latest jl stuff.

I could get at least FOUR JL Audio GOTHAM subs for the price of one MRS!And one Gotham goes toe to toe with the MRS! Talk about value. Plus you have to consider SVS's Ultra using dual TV12's,even better deal...and an IB sub...a price performance you cannot beat!

[OneTwoMany]

This thread is really running over the Klipschs latest sub designs, I wouldnt count out the RT12-d against the 112 or even 13 for that matter. Sure it doest have as much system power at least from the basic numbers provided, but the RT-12D driver out matches both the 13 and 12W7 for BL product which means it has more motor! And unless its also a thin 2-layer vc like the W7s, it should be able to outclass both drivers for power handling even with a smaller vc diameter. Unless the HTW7 uses a copper coil too, and more layers, the RT12 should run with it for power handling if not beat it.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

However, I do suspect JL may have snuck in a copper coil for their HTW7 to make it perform better in that small box that is just my speculation.

Now the notable thing about the RT12 is that its flat out going to kill at least the F113 around 20Hz, There is no way a sealed box can keep up with a ported box at Fb at least one like the RT12, and the RT 12 has some big passives which act as a huge port not some wimpy stuff lingering around these days. The RT12 sub is also a 13 driver so it technically has more surface area than the JL 12W7, more BL product and higher power handling if Im not mistaken, these things DO matter and when you add the fact that a vented box is going to kill a sealed box for output, then the only thing that the F112 has for it is a little more power.. big deal.

I wouldnt count out the RT12 just yet, not until a formal and un subjective review can give us the facts.

If I had to buy 2000 dollar DSP subwoofer, I wouldnt spend the extra money on the 12 Fathom just yet, I would stick with the Klipsch based on the numbers I have seen and my limited experience. Thats just my options. I wish an engineer would post in this thread and back up the RT12, I hope what I said was at least mostly accurate.

Good job Klipsch, I hope all the new subs are as good as the RTs look to be! I will probably own one soon! For the price of that Gothom, I could own four!

[Jay481985]

uhh... the rt-12d is a 12 inch hence the name?

[kramskoi]

well given the scarcity of Klipsch subwoofer reviews with subjective opinion or "objective" numbers...i would'nt hold my breath...that said, the RSW 15 has been said to be very musical for a PR design...how the RT12 will deal with a SOTA sealed subwoofer is another matter...the JL w7 has the displacement of a Tumult 15" driver...even then, these commercial designs, JL included, are limited in what they can do with a single driver...this affects ultimate extension the most and just looking at posted data from Craigsub's evaluations, it looks as though some sort of highpass filtering is being used at the bottom...the rolloff would seem to be even steeper with 12TD using passive radiators which would attenuate VLF much faster...i remember the "Under the Xmas tree shootout in 2001", which noted the lack of impact below 30 Hz compared to other offerings...knowing what i did'nt know a year ago, there is no way i would leave VLF duties to a single driver subwoofer...especially not Home Theater...not for an uncompressed, low distortion presentation...

Bl product does'nt always tell the whole story...for instance the tc3000's i use have more motor force (29 teslameters) than the LMS offerings from TC sounds...the downside to huge amounts of BL is usually a rise of inductance, which inhibits the upper bass and introduces higher amounts of flux modulation distortion...the FR also becomes less linear so more equalization is needed to flatten it...this begins to negate the advantages of the high motor force used...shorting rings can be used to combat, to a degree, this inductance rise, but they are'nt always totally effective...this is one of the reasons why the LMS series weigh so much...the gap must be made wider to accomodate the linear coil, losing force...the HUGE linearized coil adds back the motor force, but lots of copper must be used to attenuate the inductance and keep it low...

Its a very good chance that the RT12 will surpass the f113 at 20 Hz but i would'nt bet on it...the HTW7 has a huge excursion envelope (3.6 to 4" iirc) and indeed it would seem that the modified drivers would have greater thermal capacity, given the amplification which is being used...my guess is that the f113 would provide a better "sound signature"...which is the current rave of this subwoofer at the moment...JL, it seems, definitely did their homework with these subs...i'm personally waiting on the Gotham, which is more in line with the sort of implementation i currently use...even so, i plan to upgrade to LMS drivers once they are released...

[TheEAR]

OneTooMany,

Please stop your hoopla,the f113 is not going to get killed like you claim by anything,ant not by the RT-12d. I have the RT-10d and the f113 outperforms it by a good margin.

I like Klipsch products BTW,this is why I am HERE on a Klipsch forum since over 6 years.

And this is why I have ALL the RSW subs and soon both RT subs. SO ...

Stop the hoopla,the f113 woofer outdisplaces the RT-12d woofer with total and utter ease. Even with ports(PR's here) it will not KILL in any way the f113. It is a very capable subwoofer.

Why do you think I have a RT-10d and will buy a RT-12d?

[darkside]

I like that word, hoopla. One question, goin back to the first post...

Who is said "fave Klipsch dealer" ?

[OneTwoMany]

I will not get into the whoile indutance BL issue, but here is a few simple facts

the VC on the F112 is 2.8" long

you can't get more than 2.8" p2p without a SHIT load of distortion, in fact you'll get more like 2.5 MAX usable, and the rest will sound like crap. That is just a simple fact!

The VC on the RT12 is probably about that long too and it also uses a wide suspetion system like the JL driver. and it has more BL^2/Re

the biggest factor as i said is one is sealed and one is vented. BIG advantage to the RT12 for sensitivty and low distortion because of this. The RT12 does not have to move as far to reach teh same level of bass down low.

theear, stop comparing smaller subs to larger ones.. you know better. The RT10 is not the same motor as the RT12, why in the world did you buyt he 10?

Compare the F110 to the RT10.. now we're talking!

[OneTwoMany]

uhh... the rt-12d is a 12 inch hence the name?

What did i say it was?

[Jay481985]

This thread is really running over the Klipschs latest sub designs, I wouldnt count out the RT12-d against the 112 or even 13 for that matter. Sure it doest have as much system power at least from the basic numbers provided, but the RT-12D driver out matches both the 13 and 12W7 for BL product which means it has more motor! And unless its also a thin 2-layer vc like the W7s, it should be able to outclass both drivers for power handling even with a smaller vc diameter. Unless the HTW7 uses a copper coil too, and more layers, the RT12 should run with it for power handling if not beat it.

However, I do suspect JL may have snuck in a copper coil for their HTW7 to make it perform better in that small box that is just my speculation.

Now the notable thing about the RT12 is that its flat out going to kill at least the F113 around 20Hz, There is no way a sealed box can keep up with a ported box at Fb at least one like the RT12, and the RT 12 has some big passives which act as a huge port not some wimpy stuff lingering around these days. The RT12 sub is also a 13 driver so it technically has more surface area than the JL 12W7, more BL product and higher power handling if Im not mistaken, these things DO matter and when you add the fact that a vented box is going to kill a sealed box for output, then the only thing that the F112 has for it is a little more power.. big deal.

I wouldnt count out the RT12 just yet, not until a formal and un subjective review can give us the facts.

If I had to buy 2000 dollar DSP subwoofer, I wouldnt spend the extra money on the 12 Fathom just yet, I would stick with the Klipsch based on the numbers I have seen and my limited experience. Thats just my options. I wish an engineer would post in this thread and back up the RT12, I hope what I said was at least mostly accurate.

Good job Klipsch, I hope all the new subs are as good as the RTs look to be! I will probably own one soon! For the price of that Gothom, I could own four!

[TheEAR]

I will not get into the whoile indutance BL issue, but here is a few simple facts

the VC on the F112 is 2.8" long

you can't get more than 2.8" p2p without a SHIT load of distortion, in fact you'll get more like 2.5 MAX usable, and the rest will sound like crap. That is just a simple fact!

The VC on the RT12 is probably about that long too and it also uses a wide suspetion system like the JL driver. and it has more BL^2/Re

the biggest factor as i said is one is sealed and one is vented. BIG advantage to the RT12 for sensitivty and low distortion because of this. The RT12 does not have to move as far to reach teh same level of bass down low.

theear, stop comparing smaller subs to larger ones.. you know better. The RT10 is not the same motor as the RT12, why in the world did you buyt he 10?

Compare the F110 to the RT10.. now we're talking!

Is that you D?

Yes the RT subs use drivers with sourround similar to TC Sounds,I noticed as soon as I saw the first pics.

Why did I buy a RT-10d? You know if you have been visiting these forums I buy subs to make towers in a pyramid! I have a RSW15 a 12 and a 10.As I have a ...you get it.

I like to have the whole family of subs home.

Why ? BECAUSE I do not have to explain to anyone.

Now I have to get the f110 the 112..have the f113 check and the GOTHAM. []

Sick sick me,well I am the only crazy freak to have so many subs home,I doubt CraigSub and company has all these.I buy them for fun,fun flexing the walls and looking at piles of subs.[:$]

[kramskoi]

the 20 Hz performance will be affected by any highpass filtering be used...i would expect the RT12 to roll off much faster, given it's a 4-6th order system...if it's truly -6 dB @ 19 Hz, then i'd say that with the excursion envelope of the f113 and a Linkwitz transform coupled with PEQ, it's very possible to match the transfer function "and" SPL output at 20 Hz...

Judging by the Sound & Vision article, Tom N. found in-room spl to be 105 dB> 25 Hz and 110 Hz @ 32 Hz...no 20 Hz output numbers are given...

The f113 tested outside at 2m GP (craigsub):

Distortion is ~13% at 20 Hz but this would likely fall in-room as the fundamental gets pushed up and the spl would rise 6-10 dB, depending on the size, layout and construction of the room...hardly a cut and dried vented vs. sealed argument...

[TheEAR]

Da,pravda comrade Kramskoi

RT-12d padoh sabaka [:$]

[OneTwoMany]

That is not a frequency response, that is a 10% THD measurement at discrete frequencies, and I'm not experienced enough to comment on it.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[TheEAR]

Frequency response measured at 85 or 90dB is nothing alone even with very low THD.

The most important factor(or at least one of the most important ones)is for a sub(speaker)to remain linear over 85,95,100dB and more.Too many subs look amazing at 90dB(very linear)and crumble like dry leaves once you start pushing the SPL higher.

Look even at the prized HGS/DD18,ubber linear at 90dB down to 15Hz! Now try at 115dB,oh no what...yes the linearity is GONE.Starts droping line a stone below the dreaded 25Hz(common for most sealed comercial subs).

The f113 does amazingly well for such a smallish sealed sub.The price,yes ugly,but hey what did you expect here? We are talking a monster of a 13.5" woofer,monster amp and a level of quality found so far only is the ubber subs costing over 10K.

I cannot stress enough,the f113 is a KILLER sub,its overall quality is not surpassed by anything in its price range.

[Jay481985]

I fine my factor is linear from 20-120 hertz @120 db is my linear seal of approval

[TheEAR]

I fine my factor is linear from 20-120 hertz @120 db is my linear seal of approval

With a few inexpensive 18" woofer in a IB configuration,very easy to achieve.

Anything over 80hz starts to leap out of the subwoofer's duty.It becomes a bass module,as it extends where it can be localised way to easy.

Large subs work in tandem with large mains,often crossed at 50Hz and below.

The ideal to strive for is 16-80Hz +/-0.5dB linear up to near max output that should reside around 125dB.This is super sub territory in my view.With minimal compression.

[Jay481985]

let me redefine, the upper bounds are just there to say it can..... but i would cross at 80 or 50 hertz.

The 20 hertz @ 120 is without room gain.

[TheEAR]

Jay,

So great sound shakes the house...only if you live in a paper house.The type a mild hurricane will take and spill its contents a few miles further. []

OT...ALERT out of topic Alert! Alert! Hell-O Jell-O

I see people rebuilding homes,same light wooden structures,roofs attached with a few nails.A strong gust of 100mph wind will damage these shacks. Here in Canada we call these storage cabanons,$2000-$5000 in reno superstores. []

The greatest sound I ever heard did not shake anything,the magic is in the midrange.And this is where the magic of tenor and Lamm operates,like no other. []

Now back to normal programming,just a few cells in my brain shifted...cause too many subs.