Choosing an amp on the basis of tone.....

[cjgeraci]

"It is really loud. At that level, you can definitely tell the sound quality is degrading, but it still sounds pretty good. Any louder, and it would cross the threshhold of sounding like crap."<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Jeff, were you able to achieve higher SPLs - cleaner - with Craig LeMay's setup versus your own? Or could you tell a difference??

My experience with tube CD players, tube prepros (and some tube amps) is that there are tangible benefits over their solid state brethren at low to middle volume levels, but there are also some noticeable benefits at higher spls. Such as, the ability to go louder and cleaner, with less loss in sound quality. Better drivers and horns and steeper sloped crossovers also help for the higher spls. Of course, louder and cleaner performance comes at a monetary price.......Oh, and room treatment help as well.

Just curious.

Carl.

P.S. Of course, even with my system, there are some volume limits before the sound quality starts to degrade. I generally do not go there.....

[DrWho]

wow Paul, thanks for the link. Just imagine how much nastier the frequency reponse would be on horns where the impedance response is all over the place. 6 ohm minimums, 40ohm peaks. Yikes.

[NOSValves]

But it's not a 60-watt amp. A 375 watt amp will do fine dumping 60 watts continuously. You know, I could be wrong about the 60-watts, but I doubt it. Here's why. When we tested all this stuff at Craig LeMay's (Born2RockU), he had a sound meter. We were steady around 115 dB with peaks above 120. That seems to match the Klipsch dB/wattage chart pretty well. We also A/B'd with the VRD's at the same levels and kept blowing fuses in the KHorns. I am sure it was because we clipped the VRD's, and you know their wattage.

Again, I will admit this is not normal listening volume. It is not even listening volume at wild parties. It is, as the chart says, "Too Damn Loud!" That's why I don't make a habit of it. I don't think I'm the odd man out because I crank it like that on occasion. It's just sort of a "test" of the emergency broadcast system. []

I'm sorry but your confused completely!! You were most absolutely clipping the VRD's and driving the speakers into way high distortion levels with either setup. BUT you were not pumping 60 watts steady state into the Klipsch Horns with either set of amps. Craig Lemay wrote me and said and I hate to post this "your insane when it comes to SPL" This from a professional rock drummer and instructor. He said you pushed the speakers to levels he wanted to run and hide from with either setup. I hope this does not cause strife between you, Craig Lemay or myself. Really in all kind intentions you do need to quit doing this to your ears or your just going to want to turn it up more and more until your using hearing aids at a very young age.

Go look at the specs of the Khorn it has the maximum acoustic output of 121dB SPL and I believe this is at 1 meter from the speaker no matter how much power you have!! Now take your room size and distance from the speakers do all the math and figure out just how loud you can get before you have completely compromised the output of the driver and horns.......... More power does not give you much when you have exceeded the SPL the speaker is capable of producing before it blows up or exceed what the manufacturer finds a reasonable level of distortion out of the speakers.

Craig

Actually, Craig (Nos), LeMay and I are probably in perfect agreement. There's no possible room for strife between anyone. He says I go to insane SPL's, and I agree. The concerns re: my hearing are probably not all too justifiable. I don't sit and suffer in it for long periods. A song or two. That's about it. I get more ear pain from a pneumatic nail gun, a miter saw, and such.

Anyway, I'm still serious..... I'll offer to take the loaners for a week or two.

EDIT: I want to be sure and make clear, in case there's any confusion about my statements re: the VRD's clipping, that we were driving at extraordinary - and most will say ludicrous - volumes. My main purpose for stereo is to play drums to other people's music (because I don't have time nor energy to be in a band). Playing drums is at a much more moderate volume than the volume we tested at LeMay's house. I could easily play drums to the VRD's. As far as their ability to produce authoritative bass (because most "tubers" seem to have to compromise), I can say the VRD's produce all the authority of the mega-watt Crown. There's no doubt the VRD's are capable of continuously exceeding concert volumes. It's just that day, we drove the he77 out of them just because...... I still think I missed an opportunity to test tubes vs. SS in the more moderate levels - probably where all the benefits (if there are any) are heard. One day, I'll check into it again. But on the flip side, we did test the levels where many question the ability of tubes to create authoritative punch. The authority was there.

Jeff,

I'd be willing to consider a demo for you. But to protect my investment since you have pretty much proved to be abusive so I would have to hold a deposit of the total cost of a pair[] I like you but not $2500 worth LOL!! But really I do not see the point if your happy with your Crown then why bother? Besides what would you use for a preamp? It makes a huge difference and the amps are designed with good quality active preamp in mind not some questionable SS example for the most part although I hear of two guy's that have found SS preamps that works great in their opinion and one is headed my way for a listen. I've never done ship it off as a gamble type in home demo's for anyone because my business model and prfit margin can not afford it so why start now? You have heard the amps and had a chance to explore the better attributes and decided to blow fuses on the Khorn rather then give the amps an honest listen. Go back the Craig's house and revisit the possibilities! In fact one more Set of VRD's are in your area so your lucky maybe I could arrange for you to hear those but you have to agree to keep your fingers off the volume control[]

Craig

[Jeff Matthews]

"It is really loud. At that level, you can definitely tell the sound quality is degrading, but it still sounds pretty good. Any louder, and it would cross the threshhold of sounding like crap."<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Jeff, were you able to achieve higher SPLs - cleaner - with Craig LeMay's setup versus your own? Or could you tell a difference??

My experience with tube CD players, tube prepros (and some tube amps) is that there are tangible benefits over their solid state brethren at low to middle volume levels, but there are also some noticeable benefits at higher spls. Such as, the ability to go louder and cleaner, with less loss in sound quality. Better drivers and horns and steeper sloped crossovers also help for the higher spls. Of course, louder and cleaner performance comes at a monetary price.......Oh, and room treatment help as well.

Just curious.

Carl.

P.S. Of course, even with my system, there are some volume limits before the sound quality starts to degrade. I generally do not go there.....

I would say "no difference." But, honestly, it was so loud, how could you tell? At those dB's, it wasn't like we could say "Hey, the flute sounds 'loftier' on that one.'" Re: your comment on the benefits at loud volumes, I have heard that clipping sounds much more benign with tubes. I would say that is true because we heard no clipping at all - even though we in fact did clip the amps. The only way we could tell was when LeMay turned down the volume and said he did not think he could hear anything from the left speaker any more. Then, sure enough, the fuse had been blown. I did not even hear the left speaker shut off.

[NOSValves]

I wish someone would go over to Jeff's and report what's 'really' going on over there with the volume issue. I question if it's really as loud as claimed.

You mean like borrowing one of those remote control bomb disarming robots from the SWAT folks and fitting it with a SPL meter and a video feed?

Pauln,

Now that was one of the funniest post I have read and seen in a long time!!

[NOSValves]

I would say "no difference." But, honestly, it was so loud, how could you tell? At those dB's, it wasn't like we could say "Hey, the flute sounds 'loftier' on that one.'" Re: your comment on the benefits at loud volumes, I have heard that clipping sounds much more benign with tubes. I would say that is true because we heard no clipping at all - even though we in fact did clip the amps. The only way we could tell was when LeMay turned down the volume and said he did not think he could hear anything from the left speaker any more. Then, sure enough, the fuse had been blown. I did not even hear the left speaker shut off.

My exact point! you pushed the speakers completely beyond the intended usage levels and into an utter mass of nasty distortion with either amp. I'm sure you did Craig's amps a ton of good also not so much the amps but the output tubes and rectifiers sure were taking a beating.

Craig

[Jeff Matthews]

Jeff,

I'd be willing to consider a demo for you. But to protect my investment since you have pretty much proved to be abusive so I would have to hold a deposit of the total cost of a pair[] I like you but not $2500 worth LOL!! But really I do not see the point if your happy with your Crown then why bother? Besides what would you use for a preamp? It makes a huge difference and the amps are designed with good quality active preamp in mind not some questionable SS example for the most part although I hear of two guy's that have found SS preamps that works great in their opinion and one is headed my way for a listen. I've never done ship it off as a gamble type in home demo's for anyone because my business model and prfit margin can not afford it so why start now? You have heard the amps and had a chance to explore the better attributes and decided to blow fuses on the Khorn rather then give the amps an honest listen. Go back the Craig's house and revisit the possibilities! In fact one more Set of VRD's are in your area so your lucky maybe I could arrange for you to hear those but you have to agree to keep your fingers off the volume control[]

Craig

I was just kidding. As great and helpful a person as I know you to be (and you've helped a good many here on this forum), I know not to expect you to ship VRD's for a demo. I really need to bug LeMay again. He's pretty cool. Plus, I could let him school me at drums.

So, you've got two sets floating around in Houston, now? Cool. I see you run a BB extreme pre-amp. How would you compare that to a Scott pre, like LeMay's? No diplomacy please.... []

Seeing as people are shipping you their tube equip all the time, I would venture to guess that you've heard every one of them (like that takes a leap in logic!). Anyway, I bet you could give good "ratings" advice.

Why am I curious if I still like my Crown so much? Because I want to know what is the difference. I have a set to build for downstairs now that I have spare Cornwalls lying around. But I'm not in a hurry. It would be cool to "own" VRD's for a week. That would be the true test, I would think.

[cjgeraci]

Jeff:

I think one of Craig's points about your preamp is well taken. I do not think that you would hear that much of a difference with Craig's VRDs so long as you are still running a solid state pre with them. Tube pre - different story. That was what I was alluding to in my post earlier. I think a tube front end also helps with higher SPLs (preamp and CDP). And again, different horns and/or drivers, more extreme slope crossovers, room treatments and bass traps.

Carl.

P.S. Sheltie Dave just told me how many constant SS watts he thinks I've put into my Heritage at times (%^&%%!). As a result, I think I'll bow out of this discussion........

[Jeff Matthews]

I'm with both of you on that one. Another $1000 or so.

[Jeff Matthews]

Here's a question. If tubes, by their nature and design, give a more pleasant sound, why then, do some people (with knowledge of hi-fi) spend more money on SS than tubes? Is it just to get more power? I doubt it, but then, why? I've seen some expensive SS stuff out there, like Krell, etc. Why buy SS Krell, when you can have tubes for the same money? Keep in mind, I'm talking about the relevant range of power to drive KHorns/LaScalas, so let's not get into the wattage debate.

[Parrot]

Paul, you crack me up! I prefer to take those criticisms as being just the kinds of criticisms you'd expect from players in that league. Kind of like mega-rich people bemoaning flaws in a 5-karat VVS1 Diamond of color grade E.

How do they define "low" in connection with low distortion? But whatever.... I will never spend 1/100th that on an amplifier.

On the other hand, if they are expecting standards like the average guy, then, the whole thing must be a ruse, and anything more than a $1000 amp for Klipschorns or LaScalas in probably a complete waste.

Say what you will about Stereophile's reviews, the measurements portion at the end is top notch, the leader of the industry. You can't laugh off their bench measurements. This isn't Julian Hirsch "all CD players are the same because they're digital" kind of stuff. I remember those early CD player reviews very well.

[coda]

Wavac SH-833 - Stereophile Recommended Components Class A

[Parrot]

You can't hide from the truth. I have boldfaced the important information for the benefit of those who would prefer to breeze by the facts and embrace magic instead.

What's really hilarious is that one of the SET amps that Allan posted a
picture of, the $350,000 150W units, got a generally favorable review
in Stereophile. In some respects it was an ecstatic review, but it also
had some uneasy, philosophical debates in it.

But,
when it was measured, it was more like a 2W amp. Yes, you read that
correct, the 150W amp was by their criteria more like a 2W amp.

So,

what about the SH-833's output capability power? Those 550 lbs and that

humongous transmitter tube promise a lot of power, not to mention the

specified "effective" output of 150W. As you can see from figs.5 and 6,

which plot the percentage of distortion and noise in the Wavac's output

against power from the 8 and 4 ohm taps, respectively, that promise is

not kept. At our usual definition of clipping1% THD+noisethe Wavac

gives out just 2W or less into loads ranging from twice the nominal tap

impedance to one quarter that nominal value. The highest power is

obtained when the load is half the nominal tapie, from the 8 ohm tap

into 4 ohmsbut even then, the definition of clipping has to be relaxed

from 1% to 10% for the amplifier to approach its specified power.

Looking at the waveform on an oscilloscope during these tests, the

point in these graphs when the waveform clips is actually the sharp

notch in the traces. At 10% THD, the amplifier is putting out a pretty

good squarewave!

. . . . .

Note

that the SH-833 becomes increasingly nonlinear with increasing power

into all loads. Only between 10mW and 100mW does it produce what would

conventionally be called "low" distortion. So why did the amplifier

sound more linear than these measurements would suggest? The answer

lies in the harmonic content of the distortion. At moderate power

levels in the midrange, it is almost entirely pure second harmonic

(fig.7). At 1%, the level is high enough that it will be just

audiblehear for yourself, using the distortion tracks on Stereophile's

Test CD 2. However, second-harmonic distortion, being musically

consonant and close enough in frequency terms to the fundamental that

there will be plenty of masking, is both relatively benign and can

often be preferred to an undistorted signal, in that it sounds "fatter"

and "warmer."

You can read the whole thing here:

http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index1.html

You can also see how ridiculous it is to claim that SET amps are
glorious amps that provide purity of tone and low distortion compared
to the brute solid state monsters.

Look at that Stereophile quote again:

Only between 10mW and 100mW does it produce what would conventionally be called "low" distortion.

And that is on a $350,000 piece of gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pauln]

Their "usual definition of clipping" is suspect, probably appropriate for SS. Just because a tube amp exceeds their arbitrary THD level does not mean the amp is clipping.

SETs have a diffent kind of harmonic distortion profile (mostly 2nd order harminics). The THD measurement has been known for decades to be an inadequate measure of how an amp sounds because it allows the inclusion of little bits of higher order harmonics in SS that sound terrible while disallowing greater amounts of 2nd harmonic distortion in tubes which sound fine up to a few percent.

[Parrot]

Come on, Paul, surely John Atkinson of Stereophile knows how to measure tube amps.

Here's the only fair way to interpret the whole SET thing: It measures poorly, it is a limited range topology, and it has an unrealistic truer-than-true presentation (read what the reviewer wrote). But, I am the first to admit, this unrealistic presentation is appealing to some people. As far as I'm concerned SET fans can enjoy their amps as much as they like, just so long as they don't make unfounded claims about low distortion and purity of tone and that kind of thing, because that could dishonestly influence people unfamiliar with the technology. I don't want to see newbies steered to SET under false pretenses. If someone listens to SET and likes it, that's great! If someone buys SET because he's been sold on a bunch of magical claims, that's not great.

[meagain]

cjg - what exactly is driving your modded khorns? The QSC PLX1202? Seems a chunk here have this. I'm curious about it.

[Parrot]

Meagain,

Are you actually a headbanger like Jeff claimed?

[pauln]

Here's the only fair way to interpret the whole SET thing: It measures poorly, it is a limited range topology, and it has an unrealistic truer-than-true presentation (read what the reviewer wrote). But, I am the first to admit, this unrealistic presentation is appealing to some people. As far as I'm concerned SET fans can enjoy their amps as much as they like, just so long as they don't make unfounded claims about low distortion and purity of tone and that kind of thing, because that could dishonestly influence people unfamiliar with the technology. I don't want to see newbies steered to SET under false pretenses. If someone listens to SET and likes it, that's great! If someone buys SET because he's been sold on a bunch of magical claims, that's not great.

The reviewer wrote that the sounds where realistic - more realistic than he had experienced before with other amps. This caused a tension in the review because many beleive there is a hard relation between measured specs and realism in sound (magical claim?). Then came the measurements. I assume the reviewer listened at 'realistic' levels - don't recall him mentioning, though. The tension in thereview was not releived - "if it sounds good and measures bad..."

If I was Atkinson and had just "measured" the 150W SET at 2W I would have attempted to investigate / resolve the issue - called the reviewer to confirm the listening level, check the WattPuppys for fleas (what is their efficiency?), touch base with the designer to discuss specs and theory of operation, etc... something!

I agree that nubeys should not be mislead by specs - SS or tube/SET - it's all about the listening, not magical claims (or spec measurements).

[meagain]

Meagain,

Are you actually a headbanger like Jeff claimed?

I listen to all kinds of stuff. I have my moments I guess. I do like quite a bit of volume with everything though. But I've no benchmark to compare where I'm at in comparison

[Guest " "]

How about this pure class A act.

And this is what Pioneer had to say specifically about the M-22's performance: "Not to be overlooked is the extremely wide power bandwidth offered in the M-22: 5Hz to 100kHz, both channels driven, 0.01% THD. Note also that the frequency response is an amazing 2Hz to 150kHz, + 0dB/1 dB at 1 watt, and that the signal-to-noise ratio is a high 106 dB (IHF short-circuited A network." At its full power output of 30 watts into 8 ohms, this amp had no more than 0.01% THD between 10 Hz and 30kHz! Class A indeed! <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

The M-22 had a total of 44 transistors and 66 diodes, for a total of 110 semiconductors. It measured 16.53 inches wide, 6.03 inches high and 14.56 inches deep. Its weight was 48 pounds, 8 ounces.

The M-22 was a pure Class A amplifier that was rated at 30 watts per channel. Pioneer stated in its Series 20 brochure: "Class-A circuits are used throughout to reduce distortion. If operated in Class-B the M-22 would deliver no less than 150 watts per channel--five times as much--with so-so distortion. The most sophisticated circuit construction yet developed by Series Twenty is reflected here, along with truly first-class parts and components to asssure you're getting the real advantages of such design."

Like the C-21 Preamplifier, the M-22 used metallized polyester capacitors and nichrome-vaporized, metal-coated resistors. Pioneer utilized a dual mono circuit design and component layout, with a massive power transformer for each channel, coupled with two equally large 22,000 microfarad electrolytic capacitors per channel. The left and right channel circuitry was mounted to large die-cast finned aluminum heatsinks. All this was mounted to a rigid die-cast aluminum chassis.

What was striking about both the M-22 and M-25 amplifiers was, of course, their appearance. Practically all amplifiers in the late 1970s and early 1980s were fully enclosed by sheetmetal on all sides, with a ventiated cover. Pioneer took the minimalist approach, indeed, a purely industrial design approach to the design of these amplifiers. All the key components were visible, with the left and right channel components grouped in a mirror image. This really appealed to audiophiles who truly are intrigued by the "innards" of their electronic components.

The M-22 had a total of 44 transistors and 66 diodes, for a total of 110 semiconductors. It measured 16.53 inches wide, 6.03 inches high and 14.56 inches deep. Its weight was 48 pounds, 8 ounces.