Choosing an amp on the basis of tone.....

[NOSValves]

It is really loud. At that level, you can definitely tell the sound quality is degrading, but it still sounds pretty good. Any louder, and it would cross the threshhold of sounding like crap.

The beauty of it is the amp does not even get warm, let alone hot.

Jeff,

I think your confusing the issues and making some serious mistaken assumptions. Possibly some of this is my fault from my lack of clear writing skills.

If one was to actually pump 60 watts of steady state power for the average portion of any music into a set of Lascala's or Khorns would indeed be listening to a mass of horrible distortion no matter how much power the amp has! 60 watts steady state will power these heritage speaker to pretty much the absolute maximum SPL rating of the speaker that absolutely will be a huge cost in distortion and sound quality again no matter how powerful the amp your using is. In fact I would be surprised if the drivers would not fry or at least be fatigued!

Now that said I believe your hugely mistaken at what levels of power your really using for the "steady state" of the music. You may indeed be using 60 watts for the peaks and this is why the degradation you admit is present when you listen at higher levels the drivers are distorting.

Now like I stated earlier in the thread I believe much of this driver distortion is a none issue for most listeners. The difference between playing at 75db and 95db steady state with higher dynamic peaks at your listening position in a normal size room of say 12 X 14 room when you have enough clean power to take the music to both those levels is a complete none issue (not easily audible for the most part). I'm sure Klipsch could measure the individual drivers and come up with the difference of 1 watt versus two watts and so on no problem. But again that is individual drivers and in the real world with a crossover network in place while playing music I think any of us are going to have a hard time saying what the exact power each driver is experiencing when the amp is injecting say 5 watts or 10 watts of power into the speaker with music jumping frequencies quicker the a normal meter could possibly read and capture. Maybe someone around here has some way to measure something that fast Sfogg maybe? But still in the end IMHO this is all splitting hairs.

Klipsch speaker are one of the most affordable low distortion speaker products available at 70db or 115db that is why such a diverse crowd using them.

Just to be clear I did not build a 60 watts amplifier to use 60 watts!! I built it for the 20 watts of excellent clean power and tone that I believe sounds glorious to my taste, on my speakers and in my room. I rarely use all of that range myself! Can you push them harder.........absolutely and if you do regularly you may just as well buy Crown solid grate amp[] Since you have missed the products intended purpose. I hope I haven't confused you further now!

Craig

[Jeff Matthews]

Our posts crossed. I think you answered my question. SS technology = more rugged and more power at less cost. I still can't say I've heard a "vast" difference in sound quality between tubes and SS, but my experience is slim. I did compare, though. (But at high volumes, which might not have been a fair comparison).

[mike stehr]

"Here's a question for the SET-sayers.... To stop all this debate, why don't they just make them 100 watts or more as well?"

Because then your getting up into the high voltage transmitting triodes, where a 1000 volts plate voltage and beyond is common. Size is another factor.

There is the one amp with the 833 cookie jar triodes, but it's one of those amps that most will never hear or see because of it's cost.

Other than that that, one would have to build a high powered amplifier with transmitting triodes. Lotsa voltage, lotsa amplifier. Not very practical in the home enviroment.

Just enjoy the music.....that's what it's all about. I listen to a 2A3 SET amp, it gets loud enough for me in my place. I like the sound of it. Nobody around here will probably ever hear it, so who cares......

[Jeff Matthews]

Craig, I was referring to my post crossing with mdeneen's. Then, that post crossed yours. Anyway, you can see where I am going. I sure wish I would have had your VRD's for about a week, just to compare at various volumes and let it sink in.

For my purposes, though, it probably would matter little. I just bang on drums mostly, and I would not be inclined to wait around for tubes to warm up and have to be extra gentle so as not to damage them, etc.

I would like to know the difference that everyone refers to as "fluid." Want to loan me a pair? []

[DrWho]

Anyone remember the power rating of that Cayin amp back in Hope? 30W per channel in that ultra linear mode or whatever it was called? We opened her up full kilt to the point of clipping the amp to let a brand new pair of khorns "break in". It was about 105-110dB everywhere in the room - like a loud rock concert, but the compression of the amp and the overloading of the room is what made it unbearable. Anyways, the khorns took that beating for a few hours to "break in" (we weren't in the room for very long).

[NOSValves]

But it's not a 60-watt amp. A 375 watt amp will do fine dumping 60 watts continuously. You know, I could be wrong about the 60-watts, but I doubt it. Here's why. When we tested all this stuff at Craig LeMay's (Born2RockU), he had a sound meter. We were steady around 115 dB with peaks above 120. That seems to match the Klipsch dB/wattage chart pretty well. We also A/B'd with the VRD's at the same levels and kept blowing fuses in the KHorns. I am sure it was because we clipped the VRD's, and you know their wattage.

Again, I will admit this is not normal listening volume. It is not even listening volume at wild parties. It is, as the chart says, "Too Damn Loud!" That's why I don't make a habit of it. I don't think I'm the odd man out because I crank it like that on occasion. It's just sort of a "test" of the emergency broadcast system. []

I'm sorry but your confused completely!! You were most absolutely clipping the VRD's and driving the speakers into way high distortion levels with either setup. BUT you were not pumping 60 watts steady state into the Klipsch Horns with either set of amps. Craig Lemay wrote me and said and I hate to post this "your insane when it comes to SPL" This from a professional rock drummer and instructor. He said you pushed the speakers to levels he wanted to run and hide from with either setup. I hope this does not cause strife between you, Craig Lemay or myself. Really in all kind intentions you do need to quit doing this to your ears or your just going to want to turn it up more and more until your using hearing aids at a very young age.

Go look at the specs of the Khorn it has the maximum acoustic output of 121dB SPL and I believe this is at 1 meter from the speaker no matter how much power you have!! Now take your room size and distance from the speakers do all the math and figure out just how loud you can get before you have completely compromised the output of the driver and horns.......... More power does not give you much when you have exceeded the SPL the speaker is capable of producing before it blows up or exceed what the manufacturer finds a reasonable level of distortion out of the speakers.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Anyone remember the power rating of that Cayin amp back in Hope? 30W per channel in that ultra linear mode or whatever it was called? We opened her up full kilt to the point of clipping the amp to let a brand new pair of khorns "break in". It was about 105-110dB everywhere in the room - like a loud rock concert, but the compression of the amp and the overloading of the room is what made it unbearable. Anyways, the khorns took that beating for a few hours to "break in" (we weren't in the room for very long).

Dr Who,

Not surprising at all the Cayin is a nice amp for the "money" but keep in mind what you had there. I cant stand that amp for anything but moderate levels also. Your analogy is useless because its based on a flawed product.

Craig

[meagain]

I wish someone would go over to Jeff's and report what's 'really' going on over there with the volume issue. I question if it's really as loud as claimed.

[Jeff Matthews]

But it's not a 60-watt amp. A 375 watt amp will do fine dumping 60 watts continuously. You know, I could be wrong about the 60-watts, but I doubt it. Here's why. When we tested all this stuff at Craig LeMay's (Born2RockU), he had a sound meter. We were steady around 115 dB with peaks above 120. That seems to match the Klipsch dB/wattage chart pretty well. We also A/B'd with the VRD's at the same levels and kept blowing fuses in the KHorns. I am sure it was because we clipped the VRD's, and you know their wattage.

Again, I will admit this is not normal listening volume. It is not even listening volume at wild parties. It is, as the chart says, "Too Damn Loud!" That's why I don't make a habit of it. I don't think I'm the odd man out because I crank it like that on occasion. It's just sort of a "test" of the emergency broadcast system. []

I'm sorry but your confused completely!! You were most absolutely clipping the VRD's and driving the speakers into way high distortion levels with either setup. BUT you were not pumping 60 watts steady state into the Klipsch Horns with either set of amps. Craig Lemay wrote me and said and I hate to post this "your insane when it comes to SPL" This from a professional rock drummer and instructor. He said you pushed the speakers to levels he wanted to run and hide from with either setup. I hope this does not cause strife between you, Craig Lemay or myself. Really in all kind intentions you do need to quit doing this to your ears or your just going to want to turn it up more and more until your using hearing aids at a very young age.

Go look at the specs of the Khorn it has the maximum acoustic output of 121dB SPL and I believe this is at 1 meter from the speaker no matter how much power you have!! Now take your room size and distance from the speakers do all the math and figure out just how loud you can get before you have completely compromised the output of the driver and horns.......... More power does not give you much when you have exceeded the SPL the speaker is capable of producing before it blows up or exceed what the manufacturer finds a reasonable level of distortion out of the speakers.

Craig

Actually, Craig (Nos), LeMay and I are probably in perfect agreement. There's no possible room for strife between anyone. He says I go to insane SPL's, and I agree. The concerns re: my hearing are probably not all too justifiable. I don't sit and suffer in it for long periods. A song or two. That's about it. I get more ear pain from a pneumatic nail gun, a miter saw, and such.

Anyway, I'm still serious..... I'll offer to take the loaners for a week or two.

EDIT: I want to be sure and make clear, in case there's any confusion about my statements re: the VRD's clipping, that we were driving at extraordinary - and most will say ludicrous - volumes. My main purpose for stereo is to play drums to other people's music (because I don't have time nor energy to be in a band). Playing drums is at a much more moderate volume than the volume we tested at LeMay's house. I could easily play drums to the VRD's. As far as their ability to produce authoritative bass (because most "tubers" seem to have to compromise), I can say the VRD's produce all the authority of the mega-watt Crown. There's no doubt the VRD's are capable of continuously exceeding concert volumes. It's just that day, we drove the he77 out of them just because...... I still think I missed an opportunity to test tubes vs. SS in the more moderate levels - probably where all the benefits (if there are any) are heard. One day, I'll check into it again. But on the flip side, we did test the levels where many question the ability of tubes to create authoritative punch. The authority was there.

[Jeff Matthews]

I wish someone would go over to Jeff's and report what's 'really' going on over there with the volume issue. I question if it's really as loud as claimed.

Probably not to you. You're also one of those "loudness freaks." We exist in numbers. But Craig (Nos) was right in that LeMay was surprised to crank so loudly. The speakers will take alot. It is not at concert levels, it is certainly way above that. Picture it like this. The hour hand on the volume dial is at 9:15 - 9:30 for drums. The volumes I describe come from the dial turned to 1:00. I could not hear myself drumming at that level. Well, I could hear something, but there'd be no point in drumming to a song when you hear all song.

[DrWho]

Anyone remember the power rating of that Cayin amp back in Hope? 30W per channel in that ultra linear mode or whatever it was called? We opened her up full kilt to the point of clipping the amp to let a brand new pair of khorns "break in". It was about 105-110dB everywhere in the room - like a loud rock concert, but the compression of the amp and the overloading of the room is what made it unbearable. Anyways, the khorns took that beating for a few hours to "break in" (we weren't in the room for very long).

Dr Who,

Not surprising at all the Cayin is a nice amp for the "money" but keep in mind what you had there. I cant stand that amp for anything but moderate levels also. Your analogy is useless because its based on a flawed product.

Craig

I don't like the Cayin either [Y] I just mentioned it because the khorns were able to take it's full power without a sweat all day long.

[pauln]

I wish someone would go over to Jeff's and report what's 'really' going on over there with the volume issue. I question if it's really as loud as claimed.

You mean like borrowing one of those remote control bomb disarming robots from the SWAT folks and fitting it with a SPL meter and a video feed?

[Jeff Matthews]

Hey, Paul, that's funny! You're one of those SET guys. One of these days, I need to swing by and hear what a costly 3.5 watts sounds like.

[pauln]

I can just hear myself now saying, "Stand away from the volume control!"

[Jeff Matthews]

Actually, I doubt you'd have to say that. Not long after the visit to LeMay's, I realized that the important differences were probably in the far more moderate volumes. Too bad I went over there with preconceived notions about just cranking them all loud and comparing.

I would say that any time anyone wants to demo something and tell me what is better/different, I'll let them do the demonstration, rather than me. They probably would know better what to test than me.

I have a vague recollection of LeMay playing some soft, chamber-type music that was real soothing, like waterfalls (some kind of peace-inducing elevator music). I didn't pay much attention because of its genre (i.e. not rock, jazz or blues), but there is where we probably could have compared.

[Parrot]

What's really hilarious is that one of the SET amps that Allan posted a picture of, the $350,000 150W units, got a generally favorable review in Stereophile. In some respects it was an ecstatic review, but it also had some uneasy, philosophical debates in it.

But, when it was measured, it was more like a 2W amp. Yes, you read that correct, the 150W amp was by their criteria more like a 2W amp.

So, what about the SH-833's output capability power? Those 550 lbs and that humongous transmitter tube promise a lot of power, not to mention the specified "effective" output of 150W. As you can see from figs.5 and 6, which plot the percentage of distortion and noise in the Wavac's output against power from the 8 and 4 ohm taps, respectively, that promise is not kept. At our usual definition of clipping1% THD+noisethe Wavac gives out just 2W or less into loads ranging from twice the nominal tap impedance to one quarter that nominal value. The highest power is obtained when the load is half the nominal tapie, from the 8 ohm tap into 4 ohmsbut even then, the definition of clipping has to be relaxed from 1% to 10% for the amplifier to approach its specified power. Looking at the waveform on an oscilloscope during these tests, the point in these graphs when the waveform clips is actually the sharp notch in the traces. At 10% THD, the amplifier is putting out a pretty good squarewave!

. . . . .

Note that the SH-833 becomes increasingly nonlinear with increasing power into all loads. Only between 10mW and 100mW does it produce what would conventionally be called "low" distortion. So why did the amplifier sound more linear than these measurements would suggest? The answer lies in the harmonic content of the distortion. At moderate power levels in the midrange, it is almost entirely pure second harmonic (fig.7). At 1%, the level is high enough that it will be just audiblehear for yourself, using the distortion tracks on Stereophile's Test CD 2. However, second-harmonic distortion, being musically consonant and close enough in frequency terms to the fundamental that there will be plenty of masking, is both relatively benign and can often be preferred to an undistorted signal, in that it sounds "fatter" and "warmer."

You can read the whole thing here:

http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index1.html

[Parrot]

You can also see how ridiculous it is to claim that SET amps are glorious amps that provide purity of tone and low distortion compared to the brute solid state monsters.

Look at that Stereophile quote again:

Only between 10mW and 100mW does it produce what would conventionally be called "low" distortion.

And that is on a $350,000 piece of gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jeff Matthews]

Paul, you crack me up! I prefer to take those criticisms as being just the kinds of criticisms you'd expect from players in that league. Kind of like mega-rich people bemoaning flaws in a 5-karat VVS1 Diamond of color grade E.

How do they define "low" in connection with low distortion? But whatever.... I will never spend 1/100th that on an amplifier.

On the other hand, if they are expecting standards like the average guy, then, the whole thing must be a ruse, and anything more than a $1000 amp for Klipschorns or LaScalas in probably a complete waste.

[cjgeraci]

"You're also one of those "loudness freaks." We exist in numbers."

Yes, we do - guilty as charged. Lately, 95% of the time I listen at low to moderate levels.

But . . . . . about one or twice a week - I really let it rip for one or two songs. Jeff, keep standing your ground.

I don't ever think I've put 60 watts of solid state or tubes into my Klipschorns (or Belles) though . . . .

Carl.

[Jeff Matthews]

The review says this:

"Can it be that everything else is wrong and the Wavacs are right? Or that the Wavacs are fundamentally wrong but fundamentally more fun?"

That is the quandry that seems to haunt everyone around here. And even at $350,000, nobody can figure it out!