sfogg Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 Tom, Thanks, I'll keep an eye on ebay. That looks like it would be a bit of a scary driver to buy used though... the diaphragms list at over $700! A purchase of drivers needing diaphragms would hurt. I bought my 288s from a reputable seller and they still ended up needing diaphragms. What makes it worse is I would need three of the JBL. Maybe I should ask on the Lansing forum if anyone wants to trade Sub1500s for 2435s. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 Erik, It should be fun. I spent some time last night listening in mono. Initial impressions only as I only had a couple of hours of listening. I basically configured an additional output on the center channels Behringer for the K510/44xt and fed that to a Teac to power the K510/44xt while leaving the rest of the system alone. The K510/44xt basically sat on top of the LaScala cabinet next to the 2404. I then set up various presets in the Behringer to switch between my existing configuration (three way LaScala, 805/288, 2404), two way with the 805/288 with and without EQ on the top end, two way with the K510/44xt and a couple of three way configs with the K510/44xt with the 2404 coming in at various frequencies. This was nice as I could sit in the sweet spot and swap between all the configs while listening with the touch of the mouse button. Two way 805/288 vs K510/44xt the K510/44xt has a better top end and that held with or without EQ on the 288. Could be the driver, could be the horn, could be both. Two way K510/44xt vs. three way 805/288/2404 there was slightly more air or shimmer to the sound three way. But it was pretty close. I tried three way using the K510/44xt with the same 8kHz eliptic crossover to the 2404 as I use on the 288/805 combo and I didn't like that setup. Might just be I need to optimize the crossover better for that combo. It might also have been due to the side by side location of the 2404 and the K510/44xt. If I muted/unmuted the 2404 you could still hear the sound sort of pull slightly to the side when the tweeter was brought in. And that is with the eliptic crossovers of around 80dB/octave. With a vertical configuration (like how the 805b and 2404 are arranged) I haven't noticed that. I might also have had the 2404 slightly too hot for the K510/44xt as compared with the original setup. As an aside I tried lower order crossovers between the tweeter/k510/44xt next to the mid and didn't like that at all. The sound got sort of phasey when switching the tweeter in/out with it at the side. Crossing at about 12kHz to the 2404 from the K510/44xt (now with either 24dB/octave L/R or 48dB butterworth) sounded better then the 8kHz crossover point. The difference between that and two way though was pretty minor from what I heard last night. More hiss on recordings and a little bit more air. That was again with potentially the 2404 slightly too hot as I setup that combo by ear. Getting back to two way k510/44xt vs. two or three way 805b/288/2404. I was listening to vocals to see how they compare. The 805b/288 has this sort of 'bigness' (lousy term but all I can think of to explain it) to the sound, probably from the sound coming from literally 8 different horns, that the K510/44xt doesn't have. You can sort of hear exactly where the sound is coming from on the K510/44xt but on the 805b/288 it is a little more spread out which kind of gives that big/large sound. However, at the same time the 805b/288 sounds sort of muddy/recessed/diffuse on vocals as compared to the K510/44xt. The K510/44xt has more clarity/immediacy there and it did sound good. So, initial impressions are positive though I need to spend some more time listening. Would be nice if I had more drivers so I could compare more then just mono. "In terms of the purely visual aspect of this change, these new horns are more understated and less obvious, and subsequently might be better for HT." For my setup that doesn't make much of a difference really. The L/C/Rs are covered by black acoustically transparent cloth so the looks are pretty well hidden. You see the bulge in the cloth from where the 805b stick up but that is about it really. For most other setups the K510 is a *lot* more subtle then the 805b and would fit in better. The multi-cell just looks so hardcore badass though. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Shawn----There's been quite a bit of talk about the 2435s on the Lansing forum. I think they're best worth pursuing if one wants to do the 2-way thing, if using tweeters I see little advantage. I'd get a pair myself but recently I bought these absolutely gorgeous sounding 902s.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 Tom, "I'd get a pair myself but recently I bought these absolutely gorgeous sounding 902s.........." LOL, I have a 1" to 2" adapter on order and three more of those 902s..... I also ordered one of the 1.5" to 2" to give the 288 a whirl as well. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Shawn: "Getting back to two way k510/44xt vs. two or three way 805b/288/2404. I was listening to vocals to see how they compare. The 805b/288 has this sort of 'bigness' (lousy term but all I can think of to explain it) to the sound, probably from the sound coming from literally 8 different horns, that the K510/44xt doesn't have." Not at all, I understand very well what you mean. Your description is actually very much like the way I have described the difference between rear-loaded Lowther horns and the Klipschorns. The Lowthers have a sort of precise and sharp quality that is great sounding, but they just don't have the big sense of scale and room-loading-ability of the Klipschorns. That's one of the things that, however crazy it must have sounded (or still does) that led to the idea of using them in conjunction with the Synergy as a sort of triple-single center channel. I was very doubtful about how that was going work, but the three speakers are able to create a surprisingly cohesive sound, and pretty well kick the tail of the Synergy by itself. "The multi-cell just looks so hardcore badass though. ;)" That's for sure, and exactly what I thought when I saw the picture of them. Very cool! However it turns out, you're doing some really great work in trying to get a handle on just how the K510/44xt behaves under various circumstances. You know, things might be very different, in terms of that 'bigness' you mentioned, when you are able to get the other two front speakers setup up the same way. It's not even my project, and I've been pondering ways to mount the horn! I bet a simple L-shaped platform, kind of like what John Warren did with the K-horns in that very good Audio Express article, would do the trick well. I keep thinking in terms of passive crossovers, and then remembered you've drifted from that, too. What's going on with the Teac hiss, Shawn? Is it better with these new drivers and horns? Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 "You know, things might be very different, in terms of that 'bigness' you mentioned, when you are able to get the other two front speakers setup up the same way. " With all three running it will certainly sound different. It will be interesting how the 'bigness' sounds then. Dynamics wise the K510/44xt doesn't seem to give up anything to the original setup, might even be a little more dynamic sounding but I need to listen more there. "and I've been pondering ways to mount the horn!" It would fit a lot easier then many other horns that can get that deep. Maybe a smaller high efficiency woofer below the plasma (where you have the Lexicon now) to get down to 100 or 120hz and the horn above the plasma would work. If you went with a passive crossover you would burn up some of the excess efficiency of the horn in the EQ it would need and then could use the autoformer to match the rest of the way to the woofer. "What's going on with the Teac hiss, Shawn? Is it better with these new drivers and horns?" I think the hiss is slightly louder with the stock Teac driving then K510/44xt then where the modded units are driving the 288/2404. The CD horns rolling off the HF response of the 44xt is helping to hide the hiss. They should be pretty quiet on the modded Teacs. I might dial back some/all of that mod if I run the K510/44xt permanently since they are going to need more power because of the EQ boost, though where they are now may have enough power anyway. I will also need to alter the input attenuation on the Teac's to maximize resolution out of the digital crossovers for the K510/44xt. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 ""and I've been pondering ways to mount the horn!" It would fit a lot easier then many other horns that can get that deep. Maybe a smaller high efficiency woofer below the plasma (where you have the Lexicon now) to get down to 100 or 120hz and the horn above the plasma would work. If you went with a passive crossover you would burn up some of the excess efficiency of the horn in the EQ it would need and then could use the autoformer to match the rest of the way to the woofer." Shawn, thanks, but I was actually referring to ways YOU might install the new horns over the La Scala bass bins. I think what we have right now is how things are going to stay for awhile, except for some trials with a series network. It's not that I'm hoping for some kind of eye and ear opening experience from that, I just want to make one to see how it compares with the much more common parallel networks -- for me, the simple type 'A'. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Erik, you have probably seen this, but if you haven't -- you might enjoy the read. http://sound.westhost.com/parallel-series.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 3, 2007 Author Share Posted January 3, 2007 "but I was actually referring to ways YOU might install the new horns over the La Scala bass bins. " Ahh, OK... never mind. They will fit in the enlarged baffle of my LaScala's. I might need some sort of 'L' bracket to hold the horn in place but that should be simple enough to do. I was originally thinking of just putting a new motor board in place and mounting them to that but I wanted to be able to toe in the L and R horns to get better coverage over the seats and to cut down on side wall reflections. With the 805Bs I use now (80x40 horn) I have the outer cells stuffed to change their dispersion to 60x40 to reduce side wall bounce. Since I can't do that with the K510 I will try to avoid the side walls with the toe in. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Dean: Thanks -- I have been to that site before, and there is some good information. I've got some books I'm using, but it's always nice to check out online sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Shawn: I was pretty sure you knew what you would be doing to mount those things, and guess I was just sort of thinking out loud. "With the 805Bs I use now (80x40 horn) I have the outer cells stuffed to change their dispersion to 60x40 to reduce side wall bounce." I've used Angel Food cake before for horn stuffing, but was bothered by the contrast between the color of the cake and the black baffle and horn throat. When I sprayed the cake black, I found it lost some of the outstanding quality it had. On top of that, we found the foamy cellular structure of the cake would break down after a few days or so. What a pain to bake those cakes every other weekend! I'm really curious about how those three new horns and drivers sound! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 lol - I bet nothing else compared to the heavenly sound you got outta them though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 I received a 1" to 2" P-Audio adapter to try the Altec 902-8B on theK510. The adapters need to be drilled for the Altec bolt pattern. Same measurement setup of broadband noise from the Spectrum Analyzer to the Behringer to the Teac to K510/902. This is 1kHz bandwidth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 2kHz bandwidth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 4Khz... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 10kHz.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 20kHz... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 40kHz... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 This is 20kHz again with a small amount of EQ up top.6dB/octave high shelving filter at 20kHz with 5dB of gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 The 902 with adapter on a K510, Peavey 44xt with adapter on another K510. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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