MBM135 Posted February 18, 2001 Share Posted February 18, 2001 I have discovered that many of my CDs sound awesome in my new DVD player. Just louder, more crisp and I am hearing lots of details I couldn't before. Or, could it be my 12 year old Sony CD player was just that--old? Needless to say it has found a new home. But I am on the verge of buying a new CD changer that can hold 5 disks so I can stay planted on the couch. Listened to a Denon unit in a nice store listening room and it sounded great. But, they have all the DVDs in another room so couldn't really do side-by-side comparisons of DVD vs CD changers. I really will be disappointed to bring home the Denon changer (DCM-370) and find it doesn't sound as good as my single-well DVD unit. I have heard others say they notice DVD players sound better with regular CDs than in plain CD players. Any technical reasons why? Thanks in advance for more education. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemcten Posted February 18, 2001 Share Posted February 18, 2001 Mike, the main thing you are hearing is twleve years of advancement in the digital field. I am sure your new DVD will sound superior to what you are used to in areas of detail,freedom from grain etc. I am not convinced that standard DVD players sound better that a high quality cd player. My good friend and I have a/b my cd player that has Burr Browns best dual 20 bit dac's along side with his new sony dvd. In this instance the DVD was not as musical or as clearly defined as the CD playback. I think you need to do some comparison listening and also need to decide what you are going to use it for most. Is it going to be in audio only system,or home theater also. Let your ears be the final judge, not the published specs, as they do not tell the whole story. A final note, I have tried my DVD player from my home theater system in my audio only system and it was nice, but it was still a step down from my current cd player. Maybe if DVD audio takes hold we could have some drastic improvement. Until then I am staying with what I have. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA Posted February 19, 2001 Share Posted February 19, 2001 Some of the DVD players don't read the CDs that you burn on the computer. I just bought the Denon 370 CD player and I don't see any difference between it and the DVD player. The Denon is a close out right now and seems to be a good buy. TKA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireless Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 If you're outputting the digital stream straight to your receiver and letting it do the decoding then there shouldn't be any difference. It's still ones and zeros no matter where they're coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzer Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 Give the DCM-370 a try, I got mine for $187.00 and YES I can heard the difference and you get HDCD decoding also. ------------------ Cruzer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 wireless, No. There are two aspects to digital data transmission; data value, and clock timing. On a system like a computer, where you're reading data off a hard disk, there's a plus or minus spec on the allowable sync speed; as long as the data transmission is within that (fairly broad) spec, the computer will unerringly convert the digital data into the correct value. On a CD or DVD player, you are reading the data in real time, clocking it out to the digital filter and the D/A converter using a time code embedded in the data stream. The timing of the pluse code representing the 0 and 1 bit transitions must be accurate to within a few hundred **PICOSECONDS** for the timing-induced distortion ("jitter") to be below audible levels. The quality of the output driver and associated buffer and cable interface on the transport can contribute significant distortions if poorly implemented. Check out this link: http://www.stereophile.com/fullarchives.cgi?292 for a good example of a well engineered product with low jitter specs. Whole thing could have been avoided if the whiz kids at Sony/Phillips had designed the CD system around a data buffer where you read in and clocked out the data... Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted February 22, 2001 Author Share Posted February 22, 2001 Thanks for the replies. I bought the Denon DCM-370 and have been listening to it a lot. Very nice sounding unit and in most instances superior to my Sony DVD when playing CDs. Very impressed and feel I made the right choice for the money. If you are looking for a changer under $300 I think this will be one of the better units. Really like the HDCD too--those disks really sound alive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HT_Andy Posted February 22, 2001 Share Posted February 22, 2001 I assumed my DVD player would sound better due to more cabling options. I use the digital optical audio cable. Wouldn't either the digital coax or optical connections sound better than the older RCA audio? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 HT_Andy, That depends on (a) whether your DVD player or your receiver does a better job of converting the digital signal to an analog signal, and ( how good the analog output on your DVD player is. If your receiver's digital to analog section is better than your DVD player's, then taking either of the digital outputs from the DVD into the receiver will sound better than using the analog outputs. If the DVD player has a better digital to analog converter than the receiver, and it has a good circuit driving the analog output, then the analog outputs from the DVD player may sound better. If the DVD player has a better digital to analog converter than the receiver, but the analog output circuitry is not up to snuff, then you still might find better results taking the digital signal into the receiver. Best this to do is try it out. You can connect your DVD analog output to one of the aux inputs on the receiver, connect the digital output to one of the digital inputs, and switch back and forth and compare. Note that if there is a volume difference between the analog and digital inputs, the louder of the two will almost always sound better, so try and compare them at the same volume level. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted February 24, 2001 Author Share Posted February 24, 2001 I am using a $40 Monster digital coaxial cable into my receiver from the CD changer. Sounds great. MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HT_Andy Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Ray, Thanks for the explanation - makes perfect sense. I'll give it a try. Will break my heart if the expensive Toslink cable doesn't sound better. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossVTaylor Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 MBM135, "Really like the HDCD too--those disks really sound alive!" Just a caution here: If I read your posts right, you're using a digital coax connection from your new Denon to the receiver. If that's the case, you're probably not actually decoding HDCDs with an HDCD DAC. Unless your CD player is unlike any I've seen, the digital coax ouput sends the unaltered bistream signal to your receiver which then decodes the digital signal with its own DAC chips. Most receivers don't have HDCD decoders. I don't know which receiver you've got - the HDCD site only lists one Harmon Kardon and a few Kenwoods as having HDCD chips. For an overview of HDCD, check out this site. To take advantage of the Burr-Brown 20bit HDCD DAC chips you've got in your Denon 370, you'd have to run RCA cables from the player's analog outputs to the receiver. Otherwise you're not using those HDCD decoders. Of course, having said all that, I found that I couldn't tell a difference between the sound quality of the HDCD decoders in my Denon CD player and the DACs in my Denon receiver, even with HDCD discs! YMMV, of course. The only way to know for sure is to try both. Ross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Please do not use a 12 year old player a a benchmark. To really reach full potential of a well decoded CD you need a Rega, Rotel, Arcam or Music Fidelity player. Then you are looking at $ 900 minimum investment. I am going to upgrade my MSB Link II to upsample in the near future. Perpetual Technologies, MSB(www.msbtech.com), or www.tweakaudio.com have really exceptional high fidelity solutions to take your coaxial output from a conservatively priced CD player or changer and make it sound like a $ 1500 player for $ 350- 600 investment. I cannot remember reading a bad review on any of these 3 products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted February 25, 2001 Author Share Posted February 25, 2001 Ross, I actaully have both the digital coax and the RCA cables connected. I do have have "Coaxial 2" selected though on the RCVR for the terminal the coax is plugged into. Will have to check my manual and verify what is happening. I really do notice a difference though between 3 HDCD disks I've tried vs. some others. I actually have to turn down the volume on the HDCDs a bit. Deneon manual says to use a digital coax cable whenever possible for "optimum performance". Will take a closer look... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireless Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 Originally posted by Ray Garrison: On a CD or DVD player, you are reading the data in real time, clocking it out to the digital filter and the D/A converter using a time code embedded in the data stream. The timing of the pluse code representing the 0 and 1 bit transitions must be accurate to within a few hundred **PICOSECONDS** for the timing-induced distortion ("jitter") to be below audible levels. Picoseconds? If you assume a sampling rate of 96 Khz (2*44.1 for stereo?) and 24 bits per sample that wouldn't be anywhere near a picosecond bitstream. How do come up with the picosecond requirement? for a good example of a well engineered product with low jitter specs. Have you heard sonic differences in DVD/CD players with your own ears that you could attribute to jitter? Where are jitter specs for DVD players? It normally isn't given as a specification by the manufacturers. I can imaging very few people spending 6k for a Levinson CD player, can you? Whole thing could have been avoided if the whiz kids at Sony/Phillips had designed the CD system around a data buffer where you read in and clocked out the data... How would this avoided jitter? Wouldn't the clocking still be an issue? -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted February 26, 2001 Share Posted February 26, 2001 wireless, The full discussion of jitter, what is and is not audible, and why, is (1) way to much to go into here, and (2) waaaaaaay beyond me anyway. Best source of information in one place I've found so far is here: http://www.audioprecision.com/ftp/publications/technotes/tn23.pdf Anybody who's curious about jitter, it's audibility, and whether it's a "real" issue or one of those phantom snake oil pitches audiophiledom is famous for ought to read that publication. Fascinating. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireless Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Originally posted by Ray Garrison: wireless, The full discussion of jitter, what is and is not audible, and why, is (1) way to much to go into here, and (2) waaaaaaay beyond me anyway. That was a good article (I think) that you linked to. I still wonder how noticeable it is to the listener. That is, how many people can say they listened to two CD players where there was a measured difference in jitter and could clearly hear the difference. This reminds me of the cable debate. I would spend the $$$ if I were convinced of a difference. I may see if I can A/B my $180 Toshiba 1600 against something else at the local audiophile stereo dealer. BTW this weekend I listend to some paradyme speakers, then to some Theil MCS1s on Aragon equipment and a Pioneer DVD. I could clearly hear the difference. Of course the price diff was very large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaypea Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 This whole discussion is rather amazing. If you want the best musicality, trueness to a live performance, then simply get a good turntable and go vinyl. No comparison. Sure the CD's are quiter and crisper. But for true music, vinyl, with a good cartdridge (like the current Grado's) can't be beat by ANY CD type system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yaypea Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 This whole discussion is rather amazing. If you want the best musicality, trueness to a live performance, then simply get a good turntable and go vinyl. No comparison. Sure the CD's are quiter and crisper. But for true music, vinyl, with a good cartdridge (like the current Grado's) can't be beat by ANY CD type system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Pidass Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Vinyl sounds better than CD???? I personally couldn't wait to rid my system of the hiss and pops and lack of dynamic range of my old vinyl (not to metion feedback at loud volumes). I've got lots of audiophile series recorings that I keep simply for nostalgiac reasons. My cassette deck and turntable are packed away in boxes (good ridance). What's next?........8 tracks? Maybe AM stereo radio. Sorry I really don't want to offend but I'll need proof before believing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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