Meshing Horns With Ribbon Tweeters

[JJJeffries]

Hello All:

Have any of you ever blended horns with ribbon tweeters? I am planning on adding two ribbon tweeters as super tweeters.

Your thoughts on the subject.

Best,

JJ

[mas]

Stage Accompany horn loads ribbons in what is one of the most amazing truly 'hi-fi' SR systems I have ever heard.

[Erland]

Interesting thought!

Are you dissatisfied with your treble responce, or is it just something you like to try out.

Please keep us posted on the results.

note:
There is also a possibillity to go Horn all the way, by adding for example a set of GOTO tweeter horns. But they are very prizy!

[ZAKO]

Ribbons are very enefficient...You would have to pad down the rest of your system....But the Stage Accompany ribbons are the only ones I know with enough sensitivity to do it ( 105db) I dont remember the cost.

[mas]

Just for clarity, the SA 8535 features a frequency response of 1kHz. to 30kHz., a power
handling of up to 2000W, a sensitivity of up to 107dB @ 1W./1m.

Horns wish they were so 'inefficient'!

And Stage Accompany is only one such company offering high power, amazingly accurate riboons. The Dutch seem to have the market cornered on ribbon R&D. HPV
Technologies planar magnetic transducers and ribbon driver-based
products from SLS Loudspeakers,
as well as Alcons Audio (the reformed Stage Accompany) all offer competing technologies.

Even JBL and Peavey are also now marketing high power hi-fidelity ribbon based line arrays.

Ribbons are no longer some fragile novelty that they may have been 30 years ago!

[STL]

Are you planning to use a ribbon tweeter with some horn lense, or does your setup already have some horn drivers and you plan to add some ribbon tweeters? If the former, then I say go for it! If the latter, I'd suggest against it because the ribbion tweeter is likely far less effecient than the horn drivers.

[pzannucci]

I just bought a second set of Aurum Cantus G1 ribbons. 102db efficiency. Going to play with them on the khorns crossing at around 2-2.5K. Should be interesting. I would love to know if anyone could build a nice horn for them to increase their dispersion along with loading them down to 1.5K. Get a couple of more db out of them. They are extremely clean so they could sound wonderful if I could architect them correctly.

[STL]

Wow, ribbon tweeters have come a long way in effeciency (or I've been looking at the wrong ones all along). But at a price of $400+ each they better sound great! []

[pzannucci]

STL,

I was lucky, got them from partsexpress at less than 300 each. Expensive but fantastic sound. High efficiency, flat impedance, and super clean. What else could you want but inexpensive.

[boom3]

Here's my 2 cents worth...

If you want to mate a horn to a riboon, you'll need an interesting phase plug. One of the problems with ribbons is that their length equals, or is greater than, the wavelength of the frequencies they're asked to produce. Ribbons have wonderful horizontal dispersion-maybe too wide in fact-but as frequency goes up their vertical dispersion narrows and the 3D pattern becomes a sharp wedge, not unlike a chip from a log.

If I was going to try to match a ribbon to a horn (which I've wanted to do for some time), I'd use 2 or 3 on a manifold that has a convergent-divergent shape. The convergent portion cants the ribbons inwards to each other and the divergent portion combines the outputs, becoming the throat of the horn. This is not a simple matter, though, since at some frequency the the distances between the ribbons will cause interference problems. There is also the resonance of the convergant/divergent chamber to consider.

One more thing to ponder. Ribbons are designed to work into the impedence of a room. Firing them into the higher impedence of a horn throat may cause mechanical problems and non-lineraity. The moving-coil horn drivers we use today were derived from "telephone receivers" designed in the late 1800s-early 1900s that operated into the high impedencve of the ear canal. So putting a horn on these was a good fit.

The Beveridge speaker uses a convergent/divergent structure in front of a tall, narrow electrostatic panel. It works beautifully, but it is not mated to a horn. FYI, electrostatic drivers for horns were tried in the 50s. IIRC, the drivers had to be so large that there was no good way to mate them to a horn via practical phase plug. Even loaded with a horn, their efficiency wasn't great.

[mas]

Just a few comments...

Speculation is fine. But speculation based upon successful precedence is even better!

Phase plugs? inefficiency? yup, 107 dB/1W/1M is definitely inefficient!? Mechanical problems?

ALL speakers are acoustical transformers! No news here!

Horn loading and using waveguides in conjunction with ribbons is not new, except to those unfamiliar with this technique! And no phase plugs are used or necessary. Nor is manifolding. In fact, manifolding would not be an optimal loading for a ribbon.

It is not merely a matter of how someone could do it if they were to try! Not only has it been tried, but it has been refined to a large degree! So I might suggest studying the succcessful precendence rather than running off in uncharted speculation land!

Also, there seems to be a rather indiscriminate interchanging of ribbon, planar and electrostatic technology references. These technologies, although they may 'look' similar to the untrained eye, are NOT interchangeable!

Additionally, folks might want to step back and consider the desired use! Considering the polar patterns and time response of a ribbon, one wonders just why elaborate waveguides are felt to be necessary in a relatively near field environment. Now, if you wan to use them in a large auditorium with a long throw system, pattern control becomes more important. But we seem to simply be tossing it all together and not distinguishing between the desired useage.

Aa a result, we can make lots of speculative speculation. But if we stop and narrow the desired use within a desired environment, much of the superfluous speculation can not only be avoided, but one might even be able to narrow applications to proven designed based upon others' extensive research and testing!

In fact some rather fascinating development of ribbon technology is currently being performed by the US Navy, as they prepare to replace all of their shipboad communications involving dynamic drivers and horns to ribbons. We were treated to a demonstration of the prototypes at the TEF seminar in Dallas last year and I must admit, these are some mighty tasty devices that are very anticipated by those lucky enough to be treated to a heads up!

But have fun. There are a number of excellent ribbon drivers that handle 1K-20k with ease, and they are able to give horns a run for the money. They offer the clarity and transients traditionally associated with electrostatics in a much more efficient package. Anyone doubting this might want to explore their increasing use in pro sound reinforcement (SR) applications, most notably in high end line arrays! It just depends on the use, the desired results, and the environment (as with all speakers!)

You can always try to mix horns and ribbons. A concern that might bear examination could be the sensitivity (for level matching) and polar dispersion as well as mounting in order to avoid diffraction effects. But you may find that you can replace 'most' of the horns with a ribbon...but they will not be a direct plug in an an exixiting Heritage speaker due to the upper limits of the bass reproduction.

[mas]

Here is a description of the Alcons RBN1801 Ribbon

But with a sensitivity of 108 dB /1W/1M, (110 dB with a 90 degree waveguide), and a maximum 145 dB SPL, they may not be efficient enough for you!

[boom3]

Just a few comments...

Speculation is fine. But speculation based upon successful precedence is even better!

Phase plugs? inefficiency? yup, 107 dB/1W/1M is definitely inefficient!? Mechanical problems?

ALL speakers are acoustical transformers! No news here!

Horn loading and using waveguides in conjunction with ribbons is not new, except to those unfamiliar with this technique! And no phase plugs are used or necessary. Nor is manifolding. In fact, manifolding would not be an optimal loading for a ribbon. (snip)

I never thought I'd be writing this....as a rule I don't respond to obnoxious postings...but we appreciate your information, however, it can be delivered without sarcasm. You don't have all the answers, and neither do the products you're flacking....I'm keeping on the thread, you're going out on a commercial tangent. Many people on this forum have considerable knowledge, too...not just a a small group.

You obviously don't have much real-world experience with ribbons since you don't understand the conundrum of line sources vs. horn throats I outlined above. You also don't understand, or maybe you blew right past, the convergent/divergent thinking. Please take time to study the theory involved, get some real world experience, and then you can evaluate what the commerical offers. If you've done all this, then reflect it in your postings, along with some of the professionalism and courtesy we have right to expect on this forum.

[mas]

LOL!

Have I pondered the problems when practical effective solutions are available? And when the folks who are on the forefront of exactly the research to which you refer have published extensibly and made the results of their research public? No, I don't feel the need to go back to first principles for a niche product for which very suitable solutions already exist.

If only the folks with such "considerable knowledge" would chose to share this and not simply restate fundamental concerns common to any horn consideration. I have worked with the products mentioned. And the real world designs work well. I have also been privy to the pre-release research and product testing conducted and funded by the US Navy. Have you? Evidently not or you would not be expressing so many of your concerns that have been addressed in practical designs.

The original poster asked for practical considerations in implementing a solution...not for theoretical considerations involved in designing a transducer.

And if someone is talking about making a speaker using a ribbon driver, they are not pondering building a driver from scratch, so they are really not pondering many of your 'ponderables' - they are looking for a practical real world solution that is available here and now, not looking for the topic for a grad school thesis - which for the most part have already been done and published. But you would know that if you were indeed familiar with them as you say!

But by all means let us know how your re-invention of the wheel, or in this case the ribbon, goes.[]

[JJJeffries]

Hello All:

When I posted the mesh horns with Ribbon Tweeters I had no idea what would follow.

After all, isn't that what this forum is all about? Putting Klipsch lovers and owners together to exchange view points and ideas?

I am using Ribbon Tweeters for the airy sound and overtones. There are overtones above 17,000hz.

Being a musicmaker and a semi retired broadcast journalist I know a little about sound.

Former member of the MIT Home Audio Group. I mean, wow, hold your horses. That group had members who owned loudspeakers that could fuel the space shuttle. LOL!

All my audio test equipment confirms that the Ribbon Tweeters are the icing on the cake.

Fellow musicmakers I play trombone with all agree you have added some really wonderful Super Tweeters to your Klipschorns.

This can be debated till the cows come home for milking. After all, it is in the mind of the listener that counts. Right?

Best,

JJ

[mas]

I just bought a second set of Aurum Cantus G1 ribbons. 102db efficiency. Going to play with them on the khorns crossing at around 2-2.5K. Should be interesting. I would love to know if anyone could build a nice horn for them to increase their dispersion along with loading them down to 1.5K. Get a couple of more db out of them. They are extremely clean so they could sound wonderful if I could architect them correctly.

Aside from matching sensitivities, you really do not need a horn or waveguide except to control the polar dispersion. One consideration you might think about with the 'bare' unit is that the polar pattern of the ribbon will not be as focused as the mid-range horn. Thus you might want to be aware of the additional reflections that may subsequently impact the listening position.

But I would say go for it. The new highly efficient ribbons offer some interesting alternative opportunities to many mid and high frequency horns depending upon the intended use and the optimal Q of the polar pattern.

If you do desire a horn loaded unit or one with a waveguide determining the Q, I would highly suggest buying one like the integrated SA (horn option) or the Alcons (with various available waveguides determining polar patterns).

[garyrc]

If I wanted to substitute ribbon tweeters for K77Fs, in an outboard box on top of my Klipschorns, are there good commercial crossovers or high pass filters, with attenuators, that I could use? My guess is that I'd want to bring the ribbon in at approx. 4.5K.

On the Stage Accompany website, there is a nice article about the SA 8535, and some endorsements, but I failed to find any dimensions. Does anyone know the approximate size?

How about Western US dealers where SA products (esp the 8535) can be heard?

[JJJeffries]

Hello All:

A friend of mine is building two wooden horns for me to house the ribbon tweeters in.

Rosewood finish. I am running the ribbons with an outboard crossover network that audioresearch sold in the 1980-90s.

To me, the sound is magical. I listen to a lot of Jazz and Theatre Pipe Organ. I can flip a toggle and listen with and w/o.

W/O sounds smooth and natural. With, I am sensing overtones that are sweet, yet smooth and natural.

They are padded to blend not set to stand out. Will keep you posted when the wooden horns arrive.

Best,

JJ

[DrWho]

For optimal results, I would probably steer towards active bi-/tri-

amping. It makes it much easier to control the balance of all the

drivers, while also offering steeper crossovers and time alignment. As

far as the crossover point, I would try to find a region where the

polar response of each unit lines up.

[hajo]

Hi there, I just joined the forum and came across your "aged" topic. I would be very interested to hear what happened to your project.... Reason for this is: For a good friend, I just did the construction work of a horn, especially designed for the Aurum Cantus. I would be interested to compare the results you may have got to your question to my construction.... I would be very glad, if you could dropü me a line... Cheers, Hajo