AVR decision Onkyo905 vs Denon 4308ci help please!

[strutter]

I'm in the market for a new receiver to replace an old Denon AVR683 (80wpc). my components are Synergy III F-3's, C-3 and S-3, sub12. 60"xbr2. I'll be using it for about equal movies and music with most music being 2.1 sound being slightly more important than video right now.

I'm torn between 2 models that are just now trickling to market. the Denon 4308ci and the Onkyo 905.

the 4308 is slightly more expensive, has DCDi faroudja video processing, .005THD, 140wpc and weighs in at about 40lbs, and has an older type BB DAC

the Onkyo a couple hundred cheaper, has reon video chip, .005thd, 140wpc with toroidal (sp) transformer and weighs in at 54lbs, ans a newer type BB DAC

the specs on the Onkyo are very impressive. and is actually, feature wise, comparable to the denon5308ci @ about $5000.

Onkyo have really beefed up their new line up. previous models weighed in at around 30lbs the newer models are 45-55lbs

I'm having a really hard time deciding because i really want the Onkyo but i have been told that Onkyo doesn't mate well with klipsch. i am familiar with the Denon/klipsch sound and i like it but having only owned Denon i really have nothing to compare different amp sound characteristics.

i have no way to audition this at home and return if i don't like so i guess what I'm looking for is some direction? opinion? input? please

here's a spec. comparison

Feature/Function

Onkyo
TX-NR905

Denon
AVR-4308CI

Comments

Amplifier/Audio

Channels

9

9

Power (7 channels)

140W/Ch

140W/Ch

Channels driven for Power rating

7

7

not confirmed for either one

THD - all channels

.05

.05

Total harmonic distortion

THX Certified

Ultra2

No

Frequency Response

5Hz-100kHz

20Hz - 20kHz

S/N Ratio

106db

?

Bi-Amp capability for front

Yes

?

Auto Calibration

Audyssey MultiEQ XT

Audyssey MultiEQ XT

Auto Calibration seating positions

8

8

Microphone included

Yes

Yes

Processing

Dolby Decoder

DD PLus, TrueHD

DD PLus, TrueHD

Plus all the old stuff

DTS Decoder

DTS-HD Master Audio

DTS-HD Master Audio

Plus all the old stuff

Neural Surround

THX

Yes

DACs

192K/24 bit

192kHz/24 bit

DACs mfg

Burr Brown

Burr Brown

DACs part number

PCM1796A

PCM1791A

DACs Signal to Noise Ratio

123 db

113 db

Crossover

40-200Hz

40-250 Hz

Crossover - Independent adjustment

F/C/S/SB

?

AV Sync

Yes

Yes

Presumed over HDMI 1.3

Multi-Band Speaker EQ

7 Band

?

Compressed audio restoration

No

Yes

To improve iPod, Network audio

Connections

Audio In

9

10

Audio Out

2

2

Phono Input

Yes

Yes

Digital Audio In - Optical

3

4

Digital Audio In - Coax

3

3

Digital Audio Out - Optical

1

2

Digital Audio Out - Coax

0

0

S-Video In

6

7

S-Video Out

1

3

Component Video In

3

3

Component Video Out

1

3

Denon - one dedicated for Zone2

Component Bandwidth

100 MHz

100 MHz

Hdmi in

4

4

Hdmi out

2

2

HDMI outputs are parallel (can't be selected independently)

Hdmi version

1.3

1.3

Multi-Channel input

8ch

8ch

Pre-amp outputs

8ch

8ch

USB

Yes

Yes

Denon supports command and control too, Onkyo unknown

Video

Hdmi Deep Color

Yes

Yes

Component Video Upconversion

Yes

Yes?

Analog to HDMI Upconversion

Yes

Yes

1080p Upscalling

Yes

Yes

Video Processor

HQV Reon-VX

Faroudja DCDi

Video Processor part number

VX-50

FLI8638

Neither part number confirmed yet!

Supports HD IVTC

Yes

No

IVTC= Inverse telecine (deinterlacing)

Multi zone Support

Zones

3

3

Powered Zone 2

Yes

Yes

Zone 2 Video out

Yes

Yes

Integration Features

RS-232

Yes

Yes

IR input

Yes

Yes

Ethernet

Yes

Yes

Wireless

No

Yes

HDMI -CEC

Yes

?

12 v Triggers

Yes

2

iPod ready

Yes

Yes

Onkyo requires DS-A2 dock

XM Radio

Ready

Ready

SIRIUS Radio

Ready

No

HD Radio

Yes

Yes

Access

Learning Remote

Yes

Yes

Basic Remote

No

Yes

Remote Back-lit

Yes

Yes

Direct Input selection - Remote

Yes

?

Direct Input selection - Receiver

Yes

No

Denon requires rotary input select, or use 3 macro buttons

Two-Way Remote

No

Yes

Text display shows info from receiver (i.e. name of track playing, etc.)

Discrete Remote On/Off

Yes

Yes

Macro control

3 on remote

3 on receiver

Display

2 line x 14 char

2 line x 14 char

OSD style

Full-color, 480p

Full-color

OSD Sample

See Post #1, Picture 022.jpg

See Post #496

OSD functions over HDMI

Yes

Yes

Odds and Ends

Warranty

2 years

?

Weight

54 Lbs

40.8 lbs

Switched 120VAC outlet

Yes, 120W

?

Detachable Power Cord

Yes

Yes

List Price

$2099

$2499

Dimensions WHD

17 1/8"x 7 5/8" x 18 1/16"

17.1" x 6.7" x 16.9"

Onkyo 805 model, Denon 3805 model

Colors available

Black or Silver

Black

Denon has silver in Japan, Onkyo Gold in Japan

Website and links

Company home page USA

www.Onkyo.com

www.usa.denon.com

Company home page Japan

www.jp.onkyo.com

www.denon.jp

Product page USA

Product Link

not available yet

Product page/info Japan

News release

Other

ListenUp

Manual PDF

For similar Integra DTC-9.8
Onkyo 875 manual

905 and 4308 manuals not available

Primary AVS link

Anticipation thread

Offical 4308 thread

Price Comparisons (via Pricegrabber, when available)

[LoudnClear]

I'll tell you, that's a hard choice, even for me a Denon guy.

However, I got my Denon DVD and Receiver due to Denon Link III, which is a proprietary interconnect that allows full high resolution digital data to be transferred from the DVD player to the receiver, allowing the digital to analog conversion to take place in the heart of the receiver. this interconnect handles full digital data for CDs, DVDs, DVD-Audio all channels and SACD all channels. I don't like the idea of analog interconnects if I can avoid it so I like Denon link for that reason. Also, due to HDCP copyright efforts, DVD players' optical or coax digital outputs have to convert high resolution DVD-A and SACD data down to 16 bit / 48 kHz digital stereo data. Not good.

Check into Denon Link III if you're interested in DVD-Audio or SACD.

I'd buy the Denon sight unseen because I love my Denon AVR-4806. I'd have to evaluate the Onkyo and get some in person experience with the 905 or its siblings to see if I would buy it.

[strutter]

thanks for the reply

i'm in that place where i know what the denon can do, but havent got any experience with onkyo. it sure is tempting to just buy it. but i'm no fool. sence no one in my area carries the 905 or the 4308 there is no way to audition before purchasing. i suppose i'll have to wait until some pro reviews are out. or just go with the tried and true denon.

[strutter]

bump

[Arky]

Totally different direction than your question but i'll throw it at ya: for $2500 you can buy good separates such as Outlaw Audio or Emotiva & try them in home for 30 days. If you don't want them it will cost you return shipping, at least that's outlaw's policy. The separate amp will provide more headroom than those receivers.

[strutter]

thanks , i had considered that. actually the 905 can be had for about 15bills and the 4308 just a couple bills more.

i haven't researched separates too much. i kinda like all the bells and whistles available in these new AVR's. hdmi 1.3, DTS-MA decoding, Internet connectability ect. i actually do have a future plan to use whichever AVR i get as a pre/pro with a separate amp. but plan to use it by itself for some time.

[MatrixDweller]

Are there any seperates in the $2000-$2500 range that have HDMI 1.3?

Would HDMI 1.3a be very similar to Denon Link III in that a digital audio (and video) signal is being passed to "The Heart" of the receiver?

[schwock5]

I have the 4308 right now and watched Bad Boys II, 5th element, usual suspects, and the rock, and i was completley blown away with the audyssey claibration.

i also thinkt he faroudja chip in it is better than the old one they used in their denon 3910 DVD player.

i think it has a ton of customizable options.

i think it's awesome.

[gibbie]

I couldn't be happier with my Denon 5803 but if (when) I had to do it all over again, I would probably go back to separates. With the way technology changes regarding surround formats and interconnectivity, I'd like to keep my amps and only replace the processor when I feel the need to upgrade. I use the 5803 for audio only so the newer HDMI and other video features don't appeal to me.

[oldbuckster]

www.outlawaudio.com ........................ www.vanns.com ................Look at these sites...........

[Bill H.]

I'll throw a wrench into the mess..............why not go with the Yamaha RX-V 2600 in Black........... on sale for only 699.00............

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=88195

[Zen Traveler]

I couldn't be happier with my Denon 5803 but if (when).... I use the 5803 for audio only so the newer HDMI and other video features don't appeal to me.

I am with gibbie. If you don't need the AVR to do Video, upper end Denons are great bang-for-your-buck AVRs for Audio.

I don't see how Onkyo can sell THX Ultra II AVR's for such a comparatively low price and it would worry me that so many can be had for considerably less in the used market. There are several threads over at AVS talking about both the Onkyos and Denons.

I have no experience with the former but I feel the Denon AVR 4806 (without the "ci" upgrade) for under $2000 would be something to consider. It has most of the video switching capabilities a person would need and have a better Amp and preamp section than the AVR 4308 along with THX processing.

[strutter]

I am with gibbie. If you don't need the AVR to do Video, upper end Denons are great bang-for-your-buck AVRs for Audio.

i think thats whats making the decision hard for me. i would use the superior deinterlaceing and scaling of the reon in the onkyo. but i'm unsure about the sound characteristics and build quality of the onkyo's.

it is good to hear that maybe denon implemented the faroudja better than previously, but it still shouldnt be able to process HD as good as the reon. after all the faroudja chip wasnt designed to process HD. the reon and realta was.

if denon would have used the reon chip in the 4308ci we wouldnt be having this discussion at all.

I don't see how Onkyo can sell THX Ultra II AVR's for such a comparatively low price and it would worry me that so many can be had for considerably less in the used market. There are several threads over at AVS talking about both the Onkyos and Denons.

i've been following those threads at AVS. after you wade through the "i got mine today" and "this place has a better price" post there is actually very little info especially concerning audio quality on the onkyo's. i came back here hoping to get some comments concerning onkyo audio quality and sound characteristics when paired with klipsch.

I have no experience with the former but I feel the Denon AVR 4806 (without the "ci" upgrade) for under $2000 would be something to consider. It has most of the video switching capabilities a person would need and have a better Amp and preamp section than the AVR 4308 along with THX processing.

i havent looked at the 4806 at all. could you please explain "and have a better amp and preamp section than the 4308" thanks.

[Zen Traveler]

Certainly. I am one that likes using the THX ultra II processing with my Home Theater and feels it takes some of the brightness out of movie sound tracks. I also like the way it removes (considerable) crowd noise away from my side surrounds and sends it to the rear on Concert DVD's. That being said, I still prefer to listen to DVD-A/SACD's on analog in 5.1.

The Denon AVR 4806 is THX ultra II certified which means it can handle speakers with dips down to 3.2 Ohms (which my RF-7's seem to benefit as well as running 2 sets of side surrounds) and weighs 12 lbs more than the AVR-4308. I realize that some feel that Denon adds bricks to their AVR's so they can charge more, but I contend that THX ultra II rating keeps their amp specs honest (i.e., beefier amps). I don't know if paying retail is worth the extra money, but feel purchasing a recently discontinued model that has a proven track record would be worth it.

[MatrixDweller]

The 4806 is a superior AVR to the 905 by far in respect to audio fidelity. It only has HDMI 1.1 so it's only good for video switching. I think it would be a much better investment to save for a comparable AVR with HDMI 1.3 that has built in HD decoders. I find that the built in decoders in HD-DVD or even regular DVD are not up to snuff. I'm sure the ones in the higher end models are fine. On my HDA2 Dolby Digital or DTS sounds better than Dolby True HD (downsampled the DTS @ 1.5mbps). The player must be adding some noise or distortion to the decoded/re-encoded signal. I now need to move to an AVR with HDMI audio processing since the HDA2 doesn't have 5.1 outs.

Looking back in the past I'd say it would have been the same as when DVD first came out and many receivers had only DD decoders. DTS was an option on higher end models. I bought a DD only receiver back then and regretted it until the day I sold it. I know if I bought a receiver now that didn't have built in HD decoders I'd regret it.

I can justify paying $2000 for an AVR but not for a HD player (or both for that matter).

[strutter]

the 4308ci has hdmi 1.3 and decodes DTS-MA and TRUEHD. the recievers in question are the 4308ci vs 905.

apparently the 4308ci is inferior audio wise to the 4806 but the 4806 doesnt have the video processing ability of the 4308ci.

i want both superior audio and video procesing. the onkyo 905 has the video processing but i question its audio ability compaired to the 4308ci.

[MatrixDweller]

I bet the 905 sounds pretty good. Unless you have super
human hearing you might not be able to tell the difference or if there is a
difference it might be negligible

. Some people say that
Onkyo can be brighter than Denon but I'm sure if you used the auto calibration
they should be about the same aftrewards since they use the same chip.

The Onkyo could well be the better receiver and by looking at the specs alone it does appear so. Onkyo may be pricing their system lower to steal market share and build a better reputation. They may also be banking on the fact that many people will buy their new receivers rather than their competitors resulting in a higher number of units sold (profit by volume sales). So the 905 may cost a little more or the same to manufacture as the 4308 but if they sell twice as many, Denon (or other competitors) looses and they still make out with a nice profit. Onkyo was (I think) first to market with a fully HDMI 1.3a receiver. They may have factored in that to their pricing scheme.

It could be that the Denon is more expensive because you're paying for the Denon name. They have you second guessing Onkyo just because of the name right. There may have been some price reductions in components that Denon is not passing on to the consumer, whereas Onkyo is. Onkyo may have reduced costs associated with manufacturing, R&D, etc and streamlines their whole business. Who knows really.

In the end all you can really do is either listen to both and decide, or go off the specs. Spec wise Onkyo clear is the winner. I haven't listened to either so all I can go off is the specs.

[Zen Traveler]

This thread may be useful in contemplating the value of HDMI 1.3.: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994&page=1&pp=30

[strutter]

i think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. those onkyo specs. look amazing. they pretty much just did everything a step better than denon component wise. i sort of wonder what posessed denon to seamingly skimp on the components. i mean they used an older DAC, older video chip and from what i've been told around the web the older models have much better audio portions than these newer models. perhaps they were relying on tried and true assuming less technical problems after introduced to market. i'm going to see how everything plays out with both of them, wait on some pro reviews. and maybe get the onkyo and try it out. but i need something before october. thats when an ISF calibrator will be tweaking my XBR2 and it is said he does magic with audio too.

[Zen Traveler]

... i sort of wonder what posessed denon to seamingly skimp on the components. i mean they used an older DAC, older video chip and from what i've been told around the web the older models have much better audio portions than these newer models. perhaps they were relying on tried and true assuming less technical problems after introduced to market.

FWIW, you are considering AVRs that are in the same price range from different companies, but not comparing competing THX ultra II models. The Onkyo 905 appears to be their flagship and the Denon AVR 4803 is a mid-line model.