Crossover Upgrade: Bob Crites & Munsononic K-Stack Comparison

[papashawn]

I'm planning to upgrade the crossovers in my pair of Forte II's and Academy center channel. I've read plenty on the forum to know that I'm in for a huge improvement. I know that Bob Crites and Chris Munson (aka popbumper) both offer great looking upgrades, but I'm trying to determine what differences there are (if any) between the two as far as sound is concerned. Has anyone had the chance to do an A/B comparison or is there a way to explain the differences I could expect through their use of different materials (such as which caps are used, etc.)? I would like to do all three crossovers at once. Bob, have you made crossovers for the Academy as well? Thanks for your input!

[BEC]

I think I did an Academy rebuild once or twice, but don't think I have built a complete new crossover for one.  Should be able to do it, but don't think I have.

Not sure about whether Chris has done those or not.  He will perhaps chime in.

 Bob

 

[papashawn]

Bob,

I did some searching in the forum over the weekend and found the schematic for the Academy posted by DeanG a while ago. I've attached it here. Not sure if you had it or not. I know that Chris makes them using his K-Stack PCB boards, I just didn't know what differences I would hear if I were to install his crossovers vs yours, or if my ear wouldn't be able to tell a difference really. Also, I think there is a possible size/space restriction inside the Academy as well. I don't know the dimensions of the original crossover or how much space you can get away with safely inside there. If anyone knows that answer, please chime in. Thanks!

Academy Crossover Schematic.pdf

[Frzninvt]

This should help some. Photo comparisons.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/515938.aspx

The differences will be in the quality of parts used and layout, the design of the network is not changing only the components within.

Only your budget will be the deciding factor, you can stick with the original PCB and install some of Bob's Sonicap's in it and even that should be an improvment.

[papashawn]

I'm glad you mentioned budget, that was an underlying question I had. I definitely want to do a full replacement, not just a re-cap as I'm not very handy with a soldering iron and I don't want to take the chance of screwing up what I have, and still have to get replacements. I like the idea of replacing all of the old parts with new, seems to make sense to change everything out at once. Without getting into specifics, there is a cost difference between Bob's and Chris's crossovers which seemed significant enough to try and determine how different they are in both performance and components used, and how well they compare to the originally intended output of the speakers when new. Like I mentioned before, I've read plenty about both of these upgrades on the forum to know that everyone has been more than happy with the results. I would like to get all three (Forte II's and Academy) from the same person to keep things consistent and make sure they blend seamlessly. I appreciate the comments so far!

[SilverSport]

I cannot compare the two against each other but I own a popbumpered K-Stack Academy from Chris Munson and I have two sets of Heresys with the crossovers rebuilt by Bob Crites...I can tell you that BOTH sound great...the K-Stack as you know has the PC boards and is completely redone...my Heresys (Is) had the parts upgraded...I had to re-install both...Heresys were easier because the whole back comes off...

Bill

[popbumper]

Hi guys:

I have probably built about a dozen K-stack Academy networks over the last two years; I am not aware of anyone else doing them. My initial impetus for building the K-stack was conceived with concern to the Academy, since it is a small enclosure. It fits easily in the Academy cabinet, gets tucked behind the foam, adds little extra weight, and makes a huge impact on the sound quality. The fact that it easily fit speakers like the Chorus, Forte, Cornwall, Heresy, KLF-20 and KLF-30 as well is merely a nice "side effect" [], and I have sold these as well. This past weekend alone I built a pair of Chorus I, a pair of KLF-20 (with bi-amp capability), and an Academy.

The field for network rebuild/upgrades is a tight one, and it was not even until recently that I was aware Bob had entered the Forte "foray", since I had known he mostly concentrated on the "upper level" stuff (K-horn, Cornwall, LaScala, Belle), which I do not dabble in. Regardless, I personally have never done A/B comparisons, and I would imagine they are hard to judge. Bob uses components I do not, and vice versa. Bob uses an attractive piece of cedar wood, I use PCB's. In many ways, it's like comparing peas and beans. Both are vegetables, and are green, but.....

You are correct regarding price point, and Bob has carved a nice niche in the rebuild/original style arena. Price sensitivity is a critical issue; a lot of people approach, but the actual percentage of buyers is much lower than the numbers that ask. I imagine after getting the "sticker shock" message when they inquire, they walk away believing there is much money to be made - that could not be farther from the truth. I personally hand build each of my networks (as does Bob), and it's not an easy task. I had originally planned these as kits - and then realized what a burden it would be trying to EXPLAIN the whole thing when I can do it faster - and believe me, I wish it could be faster than it is! The margin on the networks is very low, and I always invite people to peruse Parts Express and other vendors to see what parts really cost. I remember a time when I thought a $20 cap was ridiculous - that is, until I heard what happens when you use one! Add in the fact that I use Bob's autoformer, which I buy from him. He buys them in bulk, so he pays less, and it is reflected in his network price. I can't escape this (nor should I).

To sum, my networks are built to serve two purposes: 1) To replace the original with a better engineered, high quality universal format that fits many applications, and 2) To address the entire sonic spectrum with better quality components. I would never say that cap replacement is a "bad idea" - it DOES have merit - it's just a philosophy in how I personally choose to address networks. Anyone who treats themselves to a crossover upgrade at any level WILL benefit from it; it simply comes down to how much money you want to spend. If you can afford a $500 Al K. network for your speaker - go for it! If you are looking for an $80 cap upgrade, and it fits your budget, grab it! Your ears will thank you.

I do the best I can, with each built as though for myself. No cheap chinese junk here, each set includes a full set of installation instructions, full wiring (with spade or forked lugs as appropriate), and color coded ty-wraps. It can't be much easier; if you can use a screwdriver, don't mind removing your terminal cup or drivers, and can read, it's very straightforward. It just comes down to the green, and everyone has their own personal budget. Perhaps one day there will be a second generation of K-stack (hint hint) available. It's all fun stuff!

Cheers,

Chris

[Garster]

I thought i would chime in here, i have a pair of 1989 Forte II speakers and did the cap and resistor upgrade about 3 months ago. I went the budget route and used them new 1% Dayton poly caps and mills resistors from parts express. It took me about 4 hours to swap out the parts, it is fairly time consuming so building them from scratch i would think is more labor intense. Anyway, right out of the gate the forte's sounded bright but as the hours have rolled by they have come to life. The sonic signature of the speaker is unchanged but the focus and soundstage is much improved. It is a very noticeable improvement and i now wonder how much better the K-stack or Deans upgrade that i inquired about earlier this year would be over what i did. At any rate, whatever you decide to go with you will be happy. If i had to do it over again, i would go with highend caps or if money permitted the all out replacement units from the members here.