I almost want to cut off my ears...

[NOSValves]

So what's this post by Craig that got removed?

For the record, I never commented on the MF/HF sound of Craig's room at AK Fest because it made me want to tear my ears off. Since Craig claims that is never possible for room acoustics to introduce that problem, I guess he is saying there was something wrong with his amplification? It certainly wasn't the CD Player since I'm also including all the songs we heard on vinyl too.

Hmmmmmmm funny how you were stumbleling over yourself wanting my card and complimenting me on how you had no idea tube amplification could sound so good. All the while it was making you want to tear your ears off. Dude you really need to grow up.

Craig

[dbflash]

8 pages from a question from a troll (my guess)

original poster has never been back.

i bet he bought another pair of speakers (if he even had Klipsch),hooked them up to his same amp and did nothing to his room.

i almost want to rip my eyes out after reading all this dribble about nothing

[cjgeraci]

Stepping back a bit and taking a larger look at things....

I actually think it is sad when the Moderator has to become involved.

I think it is even sadder when the Moderator is then picked on for having to do their job.

-Tom

Did you actually read the post before it was removed? Or are you just blowing smoke for the sake of blowing smoke - that is, supporting the decision to delete the post without having knowledge of its contents?

Sure, it is Klipsch's forum, it is privilege to communicate in here, and they have the "right" to remove any post that they want to.

That being said, there was nothing offensive in the post that required removal. So, it was surprising that the moderators resorted to removing the post in its entirety. We'll just leave it at that.....

Carl.

Carl, I don't even know why I bother responding to your comment, but heck ....

Yes, I was on the Forum on Friday night,

Yes, I do vaguely remember some of the silliness that was being posted.

Yes, I still think it is sad that the moderator has to waste their Friday night cleaning up.

Yes, I still think it is wrong to pick on the moderator.

I have grown tired of this.

-Tom

Thanks for stepping up to the plate and confessing that you really did not read the post because Craig's post was deleted Friday afternoon far in advance of your alleged or purported reading of his post "Friday evening." It warms our hearts to know that you really did not know what Craig posted but you were willing to defend the moderators anyway.........

Again, for the record, Craig called Mike out about his "comments" about Ak fest in relation to the room vs. amps. debate in that "Dr. Who's" comments about Craig's room at Ak Fest now stand in stark contrast to Mike's comments back then (once more, in person).

So.......................you think that informing the masses of that exchange was worthy of it being deleted.............

Again, I respect the moderators' right to do whatever they want - - - - after all ---- its their forum.

That being said, I'm not sure that deleting another member's post because it picked on one of their favorite sons is not always in good taste.

Since you are tired, I would recommend some caffeine. After all, there is always coffee. Maron, could you recommend some pick me up to our good friend Tom???

Thanks for coming clean.

Carl.

[Guest " "]

"Its the room, but by all means buy a new stereo amp "

replace the caps too...oh no caps...well put some in...then replace them.

[DrWho]

Hmmmmmmm funny how you were stumbleling over yourself wanting my card and complimenting me on how you had no idea tube amplification could sound so good. All the while it was making you want to tear your ears off. Dude you really need to grow up.

Are you so insecure that you need to resort to misrepresentation of people that disagree with you? Absolutely beautiful - I wanna be just like you when I grow up [Y]

[DrWho]

Dr. Who: "Ok, let's say that after all the complicated impedance relationships

that amp A has 0.5dB more output at a certain frequency than amp B. If

the room happens to have some kind of resonant nature at that

frequency, then the length of the decay will change more rapdily with

amplitude. It's not so much the 0.5dB that is audible as it is the

decay of the resonance changing length by a few ms. If you got rid of

the resonance (or took the speaker outside), the differences would be

far less noticeable or even completely inaudible. This same effect can

also happen from spectrally unbalanced later arriving reflections too."

MD:

That has not one single thing to do with different performance of

amplifier A and B relative to each other. Remember now, what you were

asked to demonstrate is how the room tuning affects the difference in

performance of the amplifiers, not the PERCEPTION OF MITIGATION, which

is what I offered as your real meaning, and which is what you are

demonstrating. No matter what you do above, A has more output than B at

the frequency you suggest. Nothing has changed with the amplifiers.

What in the world?!? A 0.5dB difference between amplifiers,

whether it be the intended signal or distortions or whatever is totally

inaudible until the time domain nature of a room smears the difference

over time. Without the influence of the room, you would absolutely

never hear a 0.5dB difference. If you claim you can, then lets drop it

down to 0.1dB or 0.01dB. The actual difference is irrelevant. The point

is that the time domain nature of the room spreads the difference out

over time and that smearing is what makes it more audible. Get rid of

the room's smearing and the perceived differences between amps becomes

less. Are you concentrating on the "side-effect" in this analogy that fixing the room is the improvement being heard? I am strictly talking about perceived differences between amps.

Dr Who: "How

bout another fun one? You can have disortions introduced into the

amplifier from the microphonic effects of the speaker reacting to the

modal response of the room. The lower the damping on your amp, the more

susceptible it will be. If you address the modal response (or went

outside), you wouldn't have a modal response to deal with - so no

distortion imparted from these effects of the room."

MD:

This is possible in the same way that a butterfly flapping it's wings

in Rome affects the next day's weather in Paris. Which is to say

"imperceptible."

Really? You know this how? Jon Risch has published quite extensively

on the subject and these distortions do indeed fall within the window

of perceptibility. I don't mind if you disagree with Risch, but what leads you to different conclusions?

Dr. Who: "Comb-filtering from reflections also exagerates any small frequency response differences between amps."

MD: And again, doesn't change the performance of the amplifiers. It

might exacerbate or it might mitigate the perception, but that's not

what your claim was.

My claim is that the percieved differences between amps reduce when the

amps aren't driving a system introducing comb-filtering. Minor

variations between amps (whether it be the response of the intended

signal or distortion) can be exagerated if the spectral content of

those differences fall within the peaks of the comb-filtering.

Dr.Who: "In

more layman terms, if you have a harsh room and you're comparing a warm

amp to a forward amp, the forward amp is going to sound rather awful.

Get rid of the harshness of the room (go outside) and you'll notice

that the forward amp probably sounds quite nice. The warm amp might

sound ok inside and outside it is also going to sound quite nice. Think

of a bad room as an unstable environment ready to exagerate the effects

of any minor change."

MD: Need I repeat? Just more mitigation/exacerbation effects - nothing to do with amplifier performance.

In

really layman's terms, you are throwing gobbly-**** spitballs against

the wall hoping something will stick! I think you are right that tuning

a room can alter our perception of differences - reducing the effect or

exaggerating the effect and so on, but bad amplifiers sound bad and

good amplifiers sound good in any normalized conditions - i.e. you are

not driving an amp into clipping and so on. It's useful to say here

that the most annoying amplifier faults are not its frequency response,

which is pretty easy to mitigate, but rather such things as fogginess,

smearing, fuzziness, edginess and so on - qualities that are intrinsic

to bad design, low quality parts and so on. There's no way to remedy

that without getting inside the amplifier.

And before you assume otherwise, I am in favor of well tuned rooms. They make systems sound better. And so do better amplifiers.

Hoping something will stick? Quite the contrary. How much experience

do you have with AB comparisons in a room versus outdoors? While I

certainly can use quite a bit more experience, this is something I've

dealt with quite a bit and have a pretty good handle on. I only ask

because I get the impression from your comments that you are

speculating more than describing things you've actually heard.

What is your technical definition for and how do you identify the following terms: "fogginess,

smearing, fuzziness, edginess". You are quick to shut down frequency

response, which I absolutely agree with, but if you're not going to

quantify the distortions, then you're no longer engineering. I'm not

saying you need to be engineering, but it totally changes the direction

of the "discussion".

[Fish]

This thread makes me want to cut off my toe nails,and buy a star trek uniform for some reason.

[NOSValves]

Hmmmmmmm funny how you were stumbleling over yourself wanting my card and complimenting me on how you had no idea tube amplification could sound so good. All the while it was making you want to tear your ears off. Dude you really need to grow up.

Are you so insecure that you need to resort to misrepresentation of people that disagree with you? Absolutely beautiful - I wanna be just like you when I grow up [Y]

Coffee calling the Kettle black.

Spoken by Dr. Who at AK Fest to me.

"This is the first tube amp I would like to own myself. Craig do you have some literature or information on this amp."

Craig,

"No its pretty new. Would you like my card."

Dr. Who,

"Yes please."

It's pretty bad when someone partially disagrees with your self proclaim expert advise on the forum that you resort to lies and damaging posts. Your really showing maturity here. It's really funny since I have never stated no benefit exist with room treatments. I just simply stated that if a system sounds so bad that a person want to remove his ears that room treatments are not going to solve the problem. I even stated in the rooms I have set systems up that I have no argument that room treatments would improve the system further. I myself can look past the minor flaws the room induces especially when listening near field which is always the case in these types of hotel rooms. Again grow up dude.

Craig

[ZAKO]

Perhaps we need to stick Shun Mook audio dots on the walls and place Shun Mook wood pucks in the best possible position to solve this heated discussion....But then again it would compound the comb filtering. I tire of the grade school mentality of grasshoppers approach to debating some thing as simple as this. Perhaps starting with Olsons book would help. Or reading some of John Eargle studies on audio could shed some light on what is being wrongly discussed here...I.m sure Augspurger would take some one to the woodshed on the sad argument here. I would suggest the young student here to be more humble. Your argument is full of holes.

[DrWho]

Dude, stop being so insecure. It's ridiculous. I was listening for one thing with your tube amp and it wasn't there so I was surprised. It has absolutely no bearing on the rest of the crap that was going on with that room - which you seem to want to believe is contradictory to my initial impressions. I was looking beyond issues that I associated with the room. Are you judging me now because I didn't comment on the room when talking about your amp? I have never piped up before this because it would be confrontational (and look how well you handle confrontation), but the great ignorance out of which you are refuting claims requires that I refer to common events. You don't like the hard realities if what I say is true, so you attack my age/credibility. What you fail to address is the pure idiocy of referring to a common event if I'm just making things up. If I wanted to lie, I could think of far better ways to do it.

[NOSValves]

If I wanted to lie, I could think of far better ways to do it.

I think not........ you're just simply not creative enough. You're so easy to read it's not funny.

Craig

[ZAKO]

Perhaps Cryogeneticly the treating the walls would have helped.

[ZAKO]

Cooler heads need to prevail here!!!!!1

[Amy]

Thanks for stepping up to the plate and confessing that you really did not read the post because Craig's post was deleted Friday afternoon far in advance of your alleged or purported reading of his post "Friday evening." It warms our hearts to know that you really did not know what Craig posted but you were willing to defend the moderators anyway.........

Again, for the record, Craig called Mike out about his "comments" about Ak fest in relation to the room vs. amps. debate in that "Dr. Who's" comments about Craig's room at Ak Fest now stand in stark contrast to Mike's comments back then (once more, in person).

So.......................you think that informing the masses of that exchange was worthy of it being deleted.............

Again, I respect the moderators' right to do whatever they want - - - - after all ---- its their forum.

That being said, I'm not sure that deleting another member's post because it picked on one of their favorite sons is not always in good taste.

Since you are tired, I would recommend some caffeine. After all, there is always coffee. Maron, could you recommend some pick me up to our good friend Tom???

Thanks for coming clean.

Carl.

Carl,

Please do not profess to know why I delete posts, stating that I play favorites while at the same time claiming to have respect for my decisions.

For the ACTUAL record, Craig's post was deleted because it contained name-calling. No other reason. It is completely irrelevant to me to whom it was directed, or what it was about. Craig knew why his post was deleted, and if he wanted make his point again without the name calling, that would've been fine. I was also hoping by intervening, I would be able to keep this thread

on a higher road, but I can see now that I failed miserably.

Yes, I know name-calling goes on all the time here. I do not read every post, nor do I even have time to briefly scan all them for violations of policies. I do what I can, and when I do catch violations, policies are enforced. It's just that simple. If someone has a complaint, I encourage them to contact me directly so I can be made aware of the situation.

Please ask me next time you feel there has been an grave injustice done here. I do not appreciate having my judgement called into question before facts are gathered.

Typically, I would've contacted you in private to resolve this issue, but I see I have let this thread get by me all weekend while I was enjoying time away from work, and I do not wish for people visiting here to believe that I do something as Junior-High-ridiculous as "play favorites."

Craig and Mike,

Please take your arguments off the forum.

Thanks.