SVS PC 16-46+ versus Klipsch RSW-15

[mas]

The only SVS I have heard was a 20-39 (not sure which exact model, though) and I remember being very impressed with its low-end movie performance. But when the guy demoed some music on it, he turned the sub up to get it to perform reasonably in the range more commonly encountered in music, which, of course, made it very boomy for certain passages.

You guys can debate which sub you like all you like, but I am fascinated by the above statement!

Is this in comparison to the level he set for movies and explosions?

If so, I would say that you would definitely hear some boom!

Levels for music are typically lower than for explosions in a home theater! In fact, with a properly balanced sub level, you won't even know its there until there is actual material that extends below the reproductive limits of the rest of the system. It simply augments the frequency reproduction, it is not meant to EQ the system!

If the above is the manner in which you are listening to the sub, you would want the sub that sounds better with explosions. Forget the more 'musical' (read "accurate") sub!

Yes, this is how the sub was demoed to me. My point was that the sub, when adjusted (not sure whether he calibrated it or not) properly for movies, lacked output and performed poorly in the upper ranges more often encountered with music. This is why the guy turned it up for music listening. How far did he turn it up? I have no idea, but he knew where he liked it to be set for movies vs. music. I also have no idea what sort of crossover setting he used in his AVR (or his sub, if that was how his stuff was connected). Hearing this friend of a friend's system's movie performance was actually the beginning of my finally considering upgrading my old Pro-Logic receiver and buying a new matching 5.1 set of speakers and a subwoofer in the first place.

Perhaps a sub that is flat to 20Hz, but doesn't perform well around the crossover setting and above is not the best sub for music. Perhaps subs that are "musical" are not flat, but instead "peaky" (as the article I posted a link to calls it) in the upper ranges. But if a subwoofer is crossed in at the typical 80Hz, you SHOULD hear it perform with music from there down to at least an octave (40Hz) below that. The low "E" string on a bass guitar is ~41Hz. There IS a lot going on in music in the octave from 40Hz to 80Hz. A subwoofer that's crossed in at 80Hz and is capable of it will also still have significant output within the octave above (160Hz) the 80Hz crossover setting, too. It doesn't surprise me at all that a 16-46 (which is tuned to 16Hz) is not very articulate within the range that's around an octave on either side of an 80Hz crossover setting.

Wuzzzer's not the first person to complain about a bottom-feeding sub not being very "musical". A sub may be flat with a sine wave from 120Hz down to 20Hz but that says nothing about how articulate that sub will be at 60Hz.

You can do as you like, but I am simply confused by many of your statements.

"Perhaps subs that are "musical" are not flat, but instead "peaky" ". Huh? So much for accuracy.

"A subwoofer that's crossed in at 80Hz and is capable of it will also

still have significant output within the octave above (160Hz) the 80Hz

crossover setting, too." Hmmm. What kind of crossover are you using? If this is correct, I recommend replacing it. ...And yet your friend is boosting the gain?!? [:|]

Every adjustment points to anything but accurate reproduction as the goal!

And if it was set too low for movies and had to be turned up for music where you experienced allot of 'boominess', I would suggest that it was incorrectly adjusted for both configurations! And far too many others have SVS subs and experience none of the problems that you describe in 'both' configurations, myself included! In fact, short of the Velodyne HGS18 Series2, there are few subs for the money than the can match the SVS for musicality (read "accuracy" - all else is noise). And as far as whatever folks are looking for in terms of some non-linear FX generator for HT use, I have no interest and you can probably save allot of money by simply substituting some cheap car audio sub 'boom' box. But the SVS does not typically exhibit the response characteristics you describe, but then I have never heretofore heard of such a screwy configuration that your friend demonstrated to you.

Rather than blame subwoofers, i would suggest seeking a more competent demonstration.

[Fish]

Yep,sivad,you nailed it.Who cares about "accurate"if it don't have great low end punch on music and concerts.It's very obvious to me as an x mid priced svs owner,the rsw15 or even 12 was/is way better for music to my ears(which is the ones I concern myself with).Others may love the accurate or maybe sometimes boring sound of a variety of gear(speakers being one biggy but prepros and transports etc..included).That's great and that's what it's all about,what YOU like to hear.I myself love that lively Klipsch sound with lotsa kick in the chest lows for concerts and music(which is what my set is used for 90% of the time).

[DrWho]

Wuzzzer's not the first person to complain about a bottom-feeding sub not being very "musical". A sub may be flat with a sine wave from 120Hz down to 20Hz but that says nothing about how articulate that sub will be at 60Hz.

That's why you gotta use different measurements besides the frequency response...like phase/group delay, distortion, resonances, power compression, etc... (I'm sure there's more)

[IndyKlipschFan]

why not buy the radio shack one and be done with it?

JK

[sivadselim]

You can do as you like, but I am simply confused by many of your statements.

Gee, look at what this thread has become. Whooda thunk it? [*-)] Next, you're going to get some SVS owners to come over here to see the trainwreck.

It's not ME who's doing anything, here. Wuzzzer is considering replacing a 16-46 with an RSW15 because he finds his sub to not be "musical" enough. The point of my post was to say that I completely understand that sentiment. Sorry that a blessed SVS has been accused of not being "musical".

Perhaps subs that are "musical" are not flat, but instead "peaky" ". Huh? So much for accuracy.

If you think a 16-46 is accurate at 60Hz, you're wrong. As I said, just because a subwoofer is flat with a sine wave from 100HZ down to 20Hz doesn't mean that it is accurate and won't sound like mush with music at 60Hz.

A subwoofer that's crossed in at 80Hz and is capable of it will also still have significant output within the octave above (160Hz) the 80Hz crossover setting, too." Hmmm. What kind of crossover are you using?

Again, it is not I who I am talking about. With the crossover slope that is common on most AVRs, there is (should be) significant output within the octave above an 80Hz crossover; that's 160Hz, btw. Nothing difficult to understand, there.

. ...And yet your friend is boosting the gain?!?

Yes, he boosted the gain so that the subwoofer would have some output in the upper regions of it's capablility. What is so hard to understand about that?

And if it was set too low for movies and had to be turned up for music where you experienced allot of 'boominess', I would suggest that it was incorrectly adjusted for both configurations!"

Of course it was boomy at the low-end in that situation. He had turned the damn thing up too high. That was my point. Turning it up just to hear it with music was a stupid solution to his problem. I think this is something we agree upon, here, no?

And far too many others have SVS subs and experience none of the problems that you describe in 'both' configurations, myself included! In fact, short of the Velodyne HGS18 Series2, there are few subs for the money than the can match the SVS for musicality (read "accuracy" - all else is noise). And as far as whatever folks are looking for in terms of some non-linear FX generator for HT use, I have no interest and you can probably save allot of money by simply substituting some cheap car audio sub 'boom' box. But the SVS does not typically exhibit the response characteristics you describe, but then I have never heretofore heard of such a screwy configuration that your friend demonstrated to you.

As I said, wuzzer isn't the first SVS owner I've heard complain about poor music performance. And even though it's another company, HSU, whose subs are similar to SVSs perfromance-wise, even makes a "subwoofer", the MBM-12 (mid-bass module), that's specifically designed for covering the mid-bass frequencies that these bottom-feeder subs like SVSs and HSUs have problems with. SVS's sealed SB-12+ was designed with this in mind, too. Huge, ported subs just aren't very tight in the upper ranges.

Rather than blame subwoofers, i would suggest seeking a more competent demonstration.

Why not blame the subwoofers? Again, that wuzzzer finds that his 16-46 performs poorly with music is no surprise. Sorry, but that sub is designed mainly around the low-end effects commonly encountered in action movies. There are some subs that are designed around music performance. RELs are one example. KEF's higher end subs are another. They don't do what an SVS or HSU can do with a movie, but they perform splendidly with music.

Fact is, you have to spend a WHOLE lot of money to get a sub that's flat to below 20Hz, yet can pull off a staccato bass run with no sloppiness.

[mas]

ROFLMAO!

First, you need to review crossover design. There is more to the world of crossovers than simple first order designs. There needn't be "significant output", and certainly not for the entire octave. Using a cheap or inappropriate crossover is not the fault of the sub. But I know its not you. As it is simply you who cannot find an accurate sub, nor evidently, an appropriate crossover. Or maybe it was someone else...who cares?

And I simply delight in reading how "Perhaps subs that are "musical" are not flat, but instead "peaky".

The fact is that there are others who are not suffering from such a dilemma. And there are even subs that accurately reproduce both movies AND music. But I know, that's not you.

But then some of us are not proselytizing for a particular brand or model here either. Nope, we're just fascinated as to where the "peaks" should be...and why do I foresee a big smiley face response curve forthcoming...

So do whatever you like, as I said, there are others of us who are not facing such a dire dilemma. LOL!

[mike stehr]

"Sorry, but that sub is designed mainly around the low-end effects commonly encountered in action movies."

Uh, oh.......I have my pair hooked up in stereo parked to each main. I'm playing TKK "Golden Pills", with the 16/46 CS's set at 40Hz. The mains can go down to 35-40Hz. I didn't realize they were only made for earth noise and explosions on movie soundtracks....bummer. It's not going break them if I just play redbook CD's through them, will it?

It seems to sound ok......what will I ever do.......

[wuzzzer]

I just set my SVS's crossover to 80Hz which I believe to be the THX standard. I don't think I had ever set it that high since I have owned it. Prior to the adjustment I had it set to 50Hz. I'm going to give some music a listen and see how it performs. I'll have to give a few movies a try and see how the sub sounds with the 80Hz setting.

I didn't really mean to open up a can of worms with this thread!

[michael hurd]

Picking a tuning point of a powered subwoofer is a double edged sword. As you know, excursion is lowest at tuning, with more excursion above and below tuning. Opting for a low tuning point will increase excursion and IMD above that point. I am of the view that unless you have a large radiating area, you should stick to a higher tuning point and sacrifice output down low. A tuning point of 20-25 hertz will do most any music justice.

A complex bass line with a smallish woofer cone and a low tuning point will result in higher IMD. ( more excursion due to the smaller Sd, and even more due to the low tuning point )

[Arky]

You can do as you like, but I am simply confused by many of your statements.

Gee, look at what this thread has become. Whooda thunk it? [*-)] Next, you're going to get some SVS owners to come over here to see the trainwreck.

It's not ME who's doing anything, here. Wuzzzer is considering replacing a 16-46 with an RSW15 because he finds his sub to not be "musical" enough. The point of my post was to say that I completely understand that sentiment. Sorry that a blessed SVS has been accused of not being "musical".

Perhaps subs that are "musical" are not flat, but instead "peaky" ". Huh? So much for accuracy.

If you think a 16-46 is accurate at 60Hz, you're wrong. As I said, just because a subwoofer is flat with a sine wave from 100HZ down to 20Hz doesn't mean that it is accurate and won't sound like mush with music at 60Hz.

A subwoofer that's crossed in at 80Hz and is capable of it will also still have significant output within the octave above (160Hz) the 80Hz crossover setting, too." Hmmm. What kind of crossover are you using?

Again, it is not I who I am talking about. With the crossover slope that is common on most AVRs, there is (should be) significant output within the octave above an 80Hz crossover; that's 160Hz, btw. Nothing difficult to understand, there.

. ...And yet your friend is boosting the gain?!?

Yes, he boosted the gain so that the subwoofer would have some output in the upper regions of it's capablility. What is so hard to understand about that?

And if it was set too low for movies and had to be turned up for music where you experienced allot of 'boominess', I would suggest that it was incorrectly adjusted for both configurations!"

Of course it was boomy at the low-end in that situation. He had turned the damn thing up too high. That was my point. Turning it up just to hear it with music was a stupid solution to his problem. I think this is something we agree upon, here, no?

And far too many others have SVS subs and experience none of the problems that you describe in 'both' configurations, myself included! In fact, short of the Velodyne HGS18 Series2, there are few subs for the money than the can match the SVS for musicality (read "accuracy" - all else is noise). And as far as whatever folks are looking for in terms of some non-linear FX generator for HT use, I have no interest and you can probably save allot of money by simply substituting some cheap car audio sub 'boom' box. But the SVS does not typically exhibit the response characteristics you describe, but then I have never heretofore heard of such a screwy configuration that your friend demonstrated to you.

As I said, wuzzer isn't the first SVS owner I've heard complain about poor music performance. And even though it's another company, HSU, whose subs are similar to SVSs perfromance-wise, even makes a "subwoofer", the MBM-12 (mid-bass module), that's specifically designed for covering the mid-bass frequencies that these bottom-feeder subs like SVSs and HSUs have problems with. SVS's sealed SB-12+ was designed with this in mind, too. Huge, ported subs just aren't very tight in the upper ranges.

Rather than blame subwoofers, i would suggest seeking a more competent demonstration.

Why not blame the subwoofers? Again, that wuzzzer finds that his 16-46 performs poorly with music is no surprise. Sorry, but that sub is designed mainly around the low-end effects commonly encountered in action movies. There are some subs that are designed around music performance. RELs are one example. KEF's higher end subs are another. They don't do what an SVS or HSU can do with a movie, but they perform splendidly with music.

Fact is, you have to spend a WHOLE lot of money to get a sub that's flat to below 20Hz, yet can pull off a staccato bass run with no sloppiness.

How do you format a post like this? Never figured it out in 3 yrs here.

[Jay481985]

Picking a tuning point of a powered subwoofer is a double edged sword. As you know, excursion is lowest at tuning, with more excursion above and below tuning. Opting for a low tuning point will increase excursion and IMD above that point. I am of the view that unless you have a large radiating area, you should stick to a higher tuning point and sacrifice output down low. A tuning point of 20-25 hertz will do most any music justice.

A complex bass line with a smallish woofer cone and a low tuning point will result in higher IMD. ( more excursion due to the smaller Sd, and even more due to the low tuning point )

thats why i got the lms 5400 18 []

[mas]

You can do as you like, but I am simply confused by many of your statements.

Gee, look at what this thread has become. Whooda thunk it? [*-)] Next, you're going to get some SVS owners to come over here to see the trainwreck.

It's not ME who's doing anything, here. Wuzzzer is considering replacing a 16-46 with an RSW15 because he finds his sub to not be "musical" enough. The point of my post was to say that I completely understand that sentiment. Sorry that a blessed SVS has been accused of not being "musical".

Perhaps subs that are "musical" are not flat, but instead "peaky" ". Huh? So much for accuracy.

If you think a 16-46 is accurate at 60Hz, you're wrong. As I said, just because a subwoofer is flat with a sine wave from 100HZ down to 20Hz doesn't mean that it is accurate and won't sound like mush with music at 60Hz. .........................

How do you format a post like this? Never figured it out in 3 yrs here.

As far as the format, you edit the post utilizing the quotation delimiters within the body of a quote.

As far as how do you replicate the illogic...you got me...[]

Just keep an eye out for a "peaky sub"...

[Arky]

Thanks mas, what is a delimiter?

[mas]

[..quote user="mas"..][..quote user="Arky"..][..quote user="sivadselim"..]

[..quote user="mas"..]You can do as you like, but I am simply confused by many of your statements.[../quote..]

Gee, look at what this thread has become. Whooda thunk it? [*-)] Next, you're going to get some SVS owners to come over here to see the trainwreck.

It's not ME who's doing anything, here. Wuzzzer is considering replacing a 16-46 with an RSW15 because he finds his sub to not be "musical" enough. The point of my post was to say that I completely understand that sentiment. Sorry that a blessed SVS has been accused of not being "musical".

[..quote user="mas"..]Perhaps subs that are "musical" are not flat, but instead "peaky" ". Huh? So much for accuracy.[../quote..]

If you think a 16-46 is accurate at 60Hz, you're wrong. As I said, just because a subwoofer is flat with a sine wave from 100HZ down to 20Hz doesn't mean that it is accurate and won't sound like mush with music at 60Hz. .........................

[../quote..]

How do you format a post like this? Never figured it out in 3 yrs here.

[../quote..]

As far as the format, you edit the post utilizing the quotation delimiters within the body of a quote.

As far as how do you replicate the illogic...you got me...[]

Just keep an eye out for a "peaky sub"...

[../quote..]

The delimiters are: [q u o t e^ u s e r="username" ] and it is complimented by: [ / q u o t e ].

Note, there are no periods nor spaces except for the one denoted by the "^". They were inserted to prevent the term from being interpreted so that they would display. Think of them as similar to quotation marks. Or, if you have ever programmed, you might think of them as similar to, for example, an "If"...."endif".

[DrWho]

So attached is a picture that shows the forum code brackets that you put around a piece of text that creates the fancy quotation blocks (Basically my screen before I hit post).

Thanks

You're welcome

mas,

Is that more?

what is a delimiter?

I have no clue

Idiot

Wait, you didn't type that!

Hmmm.....

Yep

[mas]

Thanks mas, what is a delimiter?

On the other hand, it may be a piece of gear that 'uncompresses' an audio signal, or a control that undoes the effect of the volume control. Maybe...

[DrWho]

Isn't that a compander? Or what's it called the wireless mics use nowadays to keep the noise floor low?

[Arky]

Thanks, i'll try later. About to listen to Prince "Rave Un2 U" now. It's a girl thing.[]

[mas]

Isn't that a compander? Or what's it called the wireless mics use nowadays to keep the noise floor low?

Yup, what you describe both compresses and then expands the dynamic range.

A 'delimiter', in this sense would be the expander portion.

I was goofing around a bit...I have to do something when I am not busy searching for "peaky responses".[]

[wuzzzer]

Well, the RSW ended up going for way more than I was willing to pay for it. Looks like the SVS is staying!