Subwoofer recommendations

[chrisinvermont]

Ok, it looks like this weekend I will be getting the TV and new AVR for my new (first) HT setup. Thanks to some people here, mostly Charles..aka Frzinvt who helped a bunch, I have assembled my speakers. I have KG-4's for the fronts, KG .5's for the rear surrounds and a KG 2.2v for the center. The new AVR will be the Denon 3808ci. I will be needing a subwoofer. I ultimately want a DD-10, but the price point is a bit high for me right now. I am looking for something around $300-$400. The place where I am getting the tv and AVR has Klipsch Synergy 10" subs and I think I can get a really good package price for everything. How good are these subs? The room is about 11' wide by 16' long and is open to the kitchen, which adds another 10 feet in length. Will this sub fill the room enough? Right now I am pretty pleased with just the bass from the KG-4's and I have been please since I got them in 89. Other options that I am considering are the HSU line and other internet subs.

Thanks!

Chris

[Guest srobak]

I use a Synergy Sub 12 with an RF-35 theater - blends in perfect, and really does an amazing job. Some folks have reported issues with the 10 on this forum, but I have yet to see a single complaint about the 12. Go for the 12

[oldtimer]

My brother in law has the sub 10 and it works well, no problems. It is not that musical IMO, but some of that must be because his receiver is fixed at 80hz for the crossover.

[oldbuckster]

You will like a sub with the KG4's ............. get whatever sub you like, I like JBL, but I would also look at HSU units...........

[sjcruiser]

You could find a nice used Velodyne sub within that price range. There's a Velodyne SPL-1200 for sale on SF's craigslist for $350.

[chrisinvermont]

Thanks for the suggestions. I picked up a RPW-10 last weekend. I got a good deal on it since I was also buying a Sony 40XBR4 and a Denon 3808ci. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be cutting it in my space. I have tried several different positions and it doesn't have the impact that I was hoping for. Part of the problem is that I don't think the unit is working properly, it cuts in and out and sometimes works and sometimes I can't get it to power on.

Anyways I loaded it into the trunk today and it goes back on the 10 day return policy! I think I will look into the HSU units, they have one thing that SWMBO will like, they are available in Maple which is the trim and accents for the room. It will fit right in with the decor.

Thanks for the responses. I will also look for used available subs but I have had mixed luck so far getting things on line. Charles (frzinvt) Kg.5s were mint just as he said they would be, a pair of Kg-1's on Craigslist were worth what I paid for them, and the Kg-2.2v off Ebay was not anywhere near as pristine as was represented. Luckily I was planning to refinish the cabinet anyways, it does sound great.

Chris

[Frzninvt]

I have never been impressed much with Klipsch subwoofers, it apparently is not their forte' (pun) the RSW and Ultra 2 models are very nice though as are the RT-10/12D albeit pricey.

Shame that sub didn't perform as expected it should have hammered that room.

I bought my two Velodyne Servo 15's used for $500 each, and after owning a dreadful Klipsch KSW-15 that I bought brand new I have never looked back.

If you can't find anything acceptable to you locally check AudioGon and eBay for a Velodyne F-1000R, HGS-10 or a Klipsch RSW-10 used.

Let me know how you make out.

[chrisinvermont]

Thanks Charles! I am considering going in a slightly different direction. I am thinking that I would rather have a small compact great sounding sub than a larger value priced sub. I am now looking into something like the Velodyne SPL-800R, Minivee, DD-10 or perhaps a Paradigm Ultracube. When I was in Denver last month I stopped into a store that has alot of Velodynes, including factory refurbished DD-10 for almost 1/2 price. Anyone have any thoughts on any of the "compact" sub woofers? I would like to stick with around $1,000 and about a foot square for size. Is this feasible, will a high quality compact sub provide enough umphhhh? The living room is about 1,500 c.f. and there is a 30 s.f opening into the kitchen which has another 1,000 c.f of space so overall volume is about 2,500 c.f.

Chris

[Guest srobak]

I have never been impressed much with Klipsch subwoofers, it apparently is not their forte' <...>

Shame that sub didn't perform as expected it should have hammered that room.

If it didn't, then something was set up wrong - and it wasn't the sub. Come on by and take a listen some time if you want to be impressed by a Klipsch sub.

[chrisinvermont]

If it didn't, then something was set up wrong - and it wasn't the sub.

I believe that if you check my previous post I stated that the subwoofer was not in fact working properly. As for setting up the sub, it isn't rocket science. I do have a limited number of positions in which to place the sub and I tried them all. I also tried a variety of cross over points and setting on the AVR. When I could get the sub to power on, it did work and it did provide extra bass, but I didn't feel that it was as great of an impact as I was expecting. After nearly 20 years with the KG-4's I have learned how critical placement of those units is. When I place them correctly in a room they have an incredible amount of bass on their own.

In fairness to Klipsch this was the bottom of the line of subs that they make. I would certainly expect a larger/better model from the Klipsch line to work great, the problem is the amount of room that I have. I need as small of a sub as possible, and thus I am looking at other manufacturers that make high end compact subs. I am still open to suggestions!

Chris

[Frzninvt]

I have never been impressed much with Klipsch subwoofers, it apparently is not their forte' <...>

Shame that sub didn't perform as expected it should have hammered that room.

If it didn't, then something was set up wrong - and it wasn't the sub. Come on by and take a listen some time if you want to be impressed by a Klipsch sub.

I seriously doubt it, I have been running dual Velodyne 15" HGS-15 Servo's and had three at one point. Unless you have 4 Klipsch Ultra 2 THX subs with two amps or a pair of RT-12D's it ain't gonna happen. If you want to hear/feel what real sub bass sounds like (10-30Hz) and not 30-60Hz ported boom listen to a Velodyne servo controlled subwoofer.

[michael hurd]

A ten inch subwoofer would be ok in most people's books, as long as they were not trying to achieve concert level reproduction. It should have done fine in that area. I would suggest going away from compact subs if you can spare the room, as they will become more efficient in the low end. Some companies make tall slim cylindrical subs ( svs ) that take up little square footage, yet have good performance.

Larger subs require less cone excursion for a given output level. If you can go that route, it might be an alternative. Some of us have fallen down a very slippery slope in the DIY world, with multiple low distortion, high excursion subbass transducers, kilowatts of real power ( professional power amps ) and sophisticated digital crossover / eq abilities. The sky is literally the limit.

[michael hurd]

"When I could get the sub to power on, it did work and it did provide extra bass, but I didn't feel that it was as great of an impact as I was expecting. "

Sounds like you have a low ouput voltage level from your receiver. Did you crank up the sub level in the reciever menu??

[synthfreek]

This may be the first "suggest a subwoofer" thread I've ever read that didn't mention SVS.

[synthfreek]

[luckasaaron]

This may be the first "suggest a subwoofer" thread I've ever read that didn't mention SVS.

Two posts above [] Mentions the "cylindrical subs."

EDIT: I would check out the SVS line, they seem to be up your alley. Very high power, quality subs yet don't take up a lot of real estate in your HT. Also the Sunfire's are another choice to look at, I have no experience with them but in terms of size they would be great for you.

[chrisinvermont]

"When I could get the sub to power on, it did work and it did provide extra bass, but I didn't feel that it was as great of an impact as I was expecting. "

Sounds like you have a low ouput voltage level from your receiver. Did you crank up the sub level in the reciever menu??

Yes I adjusted volume levels from the receiver - it's a Denon 3808ci. I could change and improve the sound greatly based upon a combination of room placement, receiver levels, and sub levels. The problem was that once I found the optimum arrangement it was lacking. I was expecting better, and that is the main problem, my expectations were higher than the sub could produce. I know that I was getting the bottom of the line. After 5 days the sub was acting up by not shutting off via the auto shutoff so I returned it.

So now to help get something that is closer to my desires I have upped the price to the $1,000 range. I looked at SVS, their cube will fit. I am not into the cylindrical look, even though they have a small footprint, they stand 32" tall. I design houses on the side and I use my house for meeting with potential clients. So far from the guys working on the renovations I got work from the electrician and the tile guy, so the overall design is working well! I want a show case without a big ugly sub. I am already pushing it with the KG-4s, KG-.5's and the KG 2.2v, both from a design standpoint, and from the wife's standpoint! If I could get something that is 14" square or less I can incorporate it into the room. The problem is that there are no dealers nearby to test things out in person! My list so far is as follows, any feedback on these or other comprable subs would be greatly appreciated. I know that bigger is better and I will need to compromise, but I am hopeful that something will work!

Velodyne - DD-10

Velodyne - SPL series, 8 or 10 inch.

Paradigm Ultracube

SVS Cube

[Guest srobak]

If it didn't, then something was set up wrong - and it wasn't the sub.

I believe that if you check my previous post I stated that the subwoofer was not in fact working properly. As for setting up the sub, it isn't rocket science.

If you check my post - I quoted Frzninvt and was responding to him. My response to you is in the 2nd post in this thread. Sorry about the bold - editor wont let me turn it off

[michael hurd]

"Hoffman's Iron Law":

One of the most fundamental design principles that the new DIY speaker builder must learn is generally known as "Hoffman's Iron Law". First formulated back in the early 1960's by Anthony Hoffman (the H in KLH), Hoffman's Iron Law is a mathematical formula that was later refined by Thiele and Small, whose work now forms the basis of all modern loudspeaker design.

Hoffman's Iron Law states that the efficiency of a woofer system is directly proportional to its cabinet volume and the cube of its cutoff frequency (the lowest frequency it can usefully reproduce). The obvious implication is that to reduce the cutoff frequency by a factor of two, e.g. from 40 Hz to 20 Hz, while still retaining the same system efficiency, you need to increase the enclosure volume by 2³=8 times! In other words, to reproduce ever lower frequencies at the same output level you need an extremely large box!

However, box size isn't the only variable You can continue to use a small box by accepting a much lower efficiency. In order to retain the same sound pressure level (SPL, meaured in dB's), though, this requires both a very large amplifier and a driver that can handle a lot of power and move a lot of air (requiring high excursions). Furthermore, it must be able to do so with minimal distortion. This is exacerbated by power compression, a phenomenon where the power heating of the driver's voice coil results in a non-linear relationship (read "distortion") between the electrical power in and the acoustical power out. Another variable not often mentioned is bandwidth You can provide the perception of violating Hoffman's Iron Law by using a bandpass design, which can provide a lot of bass primarily across a very limited bandwidth. In all too many bandpass designs, the impressive bass is produced around a single frequency. This is often referred to as "one-note bass". It can rattle the furniture and impress your friends, and may even be OK for sound effects in action movies, but don't expect too much accuracy when listening to music with a lot of low bass content.

Summarizing, Low-frequency capability, box size, and efficiency form the three key aspects of system design. To increase any of the three, you have to give up something from the other two, with box size being the most sensitive. The often unpopular bottom line is therefore to plan on using the largest box you can comfortably live with. This partially explains the popularity of subwoofers, which can be both large and hidden from view, and often include their own built-in high power amplifier.

[formica]

... Some of us have fallen down a very slippery slope in the DIY world, with multiple low distortion, high excursion subbass transducers, kilowatts of real power...

A very slippery slope it is.... [:$]