Cal Blacksmith Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 It is nice to see that there are fellow CGers here and that I am not alone in the quest for the "perfect cup" though I do have a problem with the "God Shot" experession. Those of you local to me, I am in Riverside Ca, should come over, we can have a listening session AND drink great coffee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The Saeco works fine - offers good pressure, the coffee is hot and the some have the RapidSteam feature which is nice. We use the super-automatic for our morning coffee during the week and when we have guests. It has adjustments for the amount of water, coffee and coarseness of grind - all of which gets close with a push of a button but it can't offer as good a shot as I can pull. The automatic is good for weekends and evenings when time isn't a factor but I know there's a better machine for me out there. I am truly surprised that these machines have held up so well after so many years of use. I clean them regularly and I rotate and maintain the brew groups which have the only moving parts aside from the valves. If you can find one for a good deal - you don't have much to lose and it'll make a decent shot and work adequately until you find something really nice. At least that's what I keep telling myself. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kennedy Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 ........ How do you like the HX machine, or is that a double boiler? What screen name do you go by at CG? ......... I am G.Kennedy over there too. Have not been there much lately, I probably spend more time at ... homebarista.com or here I would love to head out to Riverside once you get everything set up .. I'll bring some CD's and some beans. My machine is a HX (heat exchanger) ... I love it. It does have a learning curve. As it sits idle, it is too hot ... a cooling flush is needed to bring the temp down before pulling a shot. No big deal, just gotta learn the system. Every machine, other than a pro level double boiler is going to need some kind of manual temp management. My next recommendation to you is to hold off on home roasting .. at least for your espresso. Homeroast for drip, buy FRESH beans for espresso. If you can not find a local roaster that is "good" (there are not many)... go to the web .... google ...Intellegencia(Chicago and L.A.) or Stumptown Roasters (Portland). These are two of the best roasters in the country. You will be gauranteed the best, freshest beans possible. They roast and ship within 1 day, so your beans are perfect when they arrive. Once you get things set up.... drop me a note ... I will swing by Intellegencia,near Silver Lake, and come out for a session. Probably after the new year at this point glenskennedy at mac dot com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 ........ How do you like the HX machine, or is that a double boiler? What screen name do you go by at CG? ......... I am G.Kennedy over there too. Have not been there much lately, I probably spend more time at ... homebarista.com or here I would love to head out to Riverside once you get everything set up .. I'll bring some CD's and some beans. My machine is a HX (heat exchanger) ... I love it. It does have a learning curve. As it sits idle, it is too hot ... a cooling flush is needed to bring the temp down before pulling a shot. No big deal, just gotta learn the system. Every machine, other than a pro level double boiler is going to need some kind of manual temp management. My next recommendation to you is to hold off on home roasting .. at least for your espresso. Homeroast for drip, buy FRESH beans for espresso. If you can not find a local roaster that is "good" (there are not many)... go to the web .... google ...Intellegencia(Chicago and L.A.) or Stumptown Roasters (Portland). These are two of the best roasters in the country. You will be gauranteed the best, freshest beans possible. They roast and ship within 1 day, so your beans are perfect when they arrive. Once you get things set up.... drop me a note ... I will swing by Intellegencia,near Silver Lake, and come out for a session. Probably after the new year at this point glenskennedy at mac dot com You have a deal! Yes, I know about the "cooling flush" that is required on a HX machine but the benifits are more than worth the little hastle that the flush is. The machine should be on the truck Friday, there is a little weather to deal with in Mass. today. I will indeed try to get some fresh roasted beans but I don't see the problem with roasting my own espresso beans, other than the inital dialing in of everything and so many variables [] CDs are ok, got any Vinyl? [] There are 3 systems I have setup at the moment, not counting the shop audio. A Cornwall/tube, H2/SS and a Fort'e/Quartet/Kg1.5/Academy HT setup. It should be a fun day. OHBTW, I have 2# of decaf Black Cat comming from inteligentsia. I ordered it yesterday and it should be here soon.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kennedy Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 ............, other than the inital dialing in of everything and so many variables ......... .........., got any Vinyl? ............. It should be a fun day. OHBTW, I have 2# of decaf Black Cat comming from inteligentsia. ........ Sounds like you are on the right path to good espresso!!! Yes reducing variables is the key to sorting out a new machine ... that Black Cat will certainly help get you through the first phase. Yep .... Plenty of vinyl here.... many different genres .... I will bring a selection. I could bring my 300B Bottlehead Paramounts too and we could really mix things up.... maybe get a bonafide So. Cal Klipsch gathering together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Thanks for the heads up about a good grinder. I have one now that I use for flavor coffee, but when I pull the trigger on the upgrade I will also get a good grinder. I was also told I need air tight containers for my coffee. I just throw the bag in the freezer. When I need more coffee I grind some and throw it back in the freezer. I may grind enough to last a couple days. Last week when I told the morning crew at my coffee shop that this was my routine you would have thought I spit on their Moms with the look they gave me. So much to learn! I also wish I lived in So. Cal so I could join your little get together. Who would have thought that this has turned into my favorite thread on the BB in a long time. You two have a great time and I look forward to an update after the New Year. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lo123 Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Hi Wayne - Possible trip back to San Diego in early January, would love to catch some good coffee and good tunes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted December 14, 2007 Author Share Posted December 14, 2007 Danny, When you get closer to pulling the trigger, give me a shout and I will help you pick one that will do the job as it should be done. Expect to pay upwards of $150 to $200 (new for an entry level unit) for one that won't make powder and bolders but will produce a even size particle. The more even the size of the grind, the better the coffee will taste. I am sure that this price range is a bit of a shock to you, I know it was to me! The grinder I am getting is a used commercial unit, they average $350 to $400 on ebay used, and retail new for $650. Coffee equipment prices are seasonal, like audio equipment. The price rises in the winter when people are inside and cold and falls in the summer when it is "too hot" to drink hot coffee (I have never been that hot and I live in a desert!) My grinders hopper will hold 2 1/2 # of beans but I will never put more than several oz in it at a time. Look at the pic above and you will see that there are no beans in the hopper of the grinder (located to the left of that really nice Stainless Steel espresso machine) Yep the evil eye was deserved but should have been held back. For coffee to be it's best, you need to grind JUST BEFORE you brew regardless of how it is to be brewed, dirp, press pot, espresso, perked (UGH can you say boiled, burnt coffee???). If you can smell the coffee, you are loosing flavor (brewed or ground or even just as whole beans and brewed coffee should never be reheated nor should it be kept on a burner and if it has been longer than 1/2 hour after being brewed, throw it out), the longer the time between being ground and brewed, the more flavor lost. Not to mention that the O2 in the air is oxidizing the coffee and causing it to go stale. This process is much the same as placing bare steel outside, it is not long before you have a nice coat of rust on it, the same type of thing happens with coffee. Fresh beans should be kept away from air (vacuum cansiter if possible) and away from light and at room temp. Stored this way you can get them to stay "fresh" for a couple of weeks though the older they get, the worse they will taste. Ground coffee on the other hand will start to go stale the instant you let go of the grind button (much finer particle size and MUCH more surface area, isn't that the whole reason to grind the bean so you can extract as much flavor as possible from as much surface area as possible?) and after more than a few hours ground coffee should be thrown away (thus the look from the coffee shop! Also, remeber this when you see all the ground coffee in the supermarket, how long has it been since that coffee was ground? Days? weeks? MONTHS??) this is why you just grind enough for the amount of coffee you are making at the moment. High volume coffee shops will have a grinder with a large hopper on it but the ground coffee dispenser is MUCH smaller on the front of the girnder (if it has one, many grinders, grind directly into the coffee holder) The hopper is tinted to reduce the exposure to light and the top helps to exclude air. A busy shop may need to refill the hopper several times a day and as a result, there is no loss of quality keeping the beans in the hopper. Coffee is food, Fine coffee is Fine food, just like "junk food" you can find a LOT of Junk coffee, the fact is, that if you pay attention to what you are doing, have a fair to good espresso machine, a good grinder and fresh beans, with a little practice, you will be turning out coffee that is better than more than half of the coffee shops in N.A. including those with a long haired mermaid over the door! Also, a good shot of espresso can be made on a low buck machine with a good grinder but it is much harder to make a good shot on a VERY VERY good machine but with a junk grinder. That is why a good grinder is so important! PS, I am glad you are enjoying the thread, I know I am[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted December 14, 2007 Author Share Posted December 14, 2007 Larry Just say the word and it will happen! If we can get enough lead time, perhaps we could have a "gathering" at that time and you could meet some of the other fine folk here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Airtight containers are a good idea but storing coffee (beans or grind) in the freezer will break down the oils and lose flavor. Its better to buy a week's worth of coffee beans and grind just what you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I have seen this line from all the coffee pros: "It has adjustments for the amount of water, coffee and coarseness ofgrind - all of which gets close with a push of a button but it can'toffer as good a shot as I can pull." What are you taking about "As I can pull". I was thinking that I was going to add a filtered water line to the machine. Is this a good idea or just blow it off. When the time comes you can bet I will revisit this thread and get in touch with you guys. Wayne, thanks again for this post! Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 "I have seen this line from all the coffee pros: "It has adjustments for the amount of water, coffee and coarseness of grind - all of which gets close with a push of a button but it can't offer as good a shot as I can pull." What are you taking about "As I can pull"." I was referring to super-automatics. These machines are engineered to mimmic the steps needed to get a shot of espresso but the variables differ quite a bit depending on the coffee used, the roast, the tamp, humidity, etc. - even altitude makes a difference. A well-trained barista (they even have a name for these guys) is aware of all the variables and can use their senses to make adjustments on-the-fly to get the best shot of espresso under most circumstances. Super-A's should be adjusted each time the hopper is filled with a new coffee but they are there for the convenience of making a coffee for anyone who pushes the button. A barista knows to throw out the 1st shot and taste the 2nd, then he or she can adjust the amount of coffee beans used per shot (dousing), how fine or coarse the grind, how hard to pack the puck (tamping), even the amount of water - and all these factors will change as the machine warms up and the day goes on. "Pulling" a shot refers to the older machines where a barista uses a lever to first draw the hot water into a tube and then he or she 'pulls" the lever with just enough force to push the water through the puck of ground coffee to extract the most flavor. That pressure is measured in atmospheres and most automatic espresso machines are rated at 12-14 atmospheres. On a lever-type machine, a good barista is able to alter the pressure to get the best shot - an automatic machine can't change the pressure thus it can only approximate the perfect shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kennedy Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 ........ but it can't offer as good a shot as I can pull."............. As i write this ... my homeroasted beans from Ethiopia are slowy dripping through my Melitta ... [] The phrase "pulling a shot" .... refers espresso made with a Lever machine. The original machines ( and still some modern machines) used a lever to build pressure and force the hot water through the beans. The barista had to appply the correct amount of pressure to get a good shot. If you google ...La Pavoni ... you will see a current lever machine that has been made forever. Cheap machines ($50 krups) use steam pressure ..... that makes the temp too high. Most modern machines (from prosumer ..... through pro level) use an electric fluid pump to build the pressure. Either vibratory or rotary. Both have their pos/neg attributes ... mine is rotary ... Generally Vibe pumps are louder, but more versatile as the have a resevoir that you fill (called Pourover) Rotaries are very quiet, but need to have a direct water line run to them .... super convenient, but not possible for all installations. I will get a photo up of how I solved the plumming issue without tapping into the house line. As for as amount of water, coarseness, bean freshness ... these are the variables we keep talking about Look at it this way.... the end result is 1.5-2.0 oz of coffee. The factors are, fresh beans, coarsness of grind, how tightly the ground beans are packed into the "puck", water pressure and water temperature. That 2.0 oz of coffee ideally happens in 25 second. All those things factor into how fast the water is going to flow through the coffee and extract all the goodness(sweet oils) ... but leave the baddness (bitters). Sounds complicated ??? Only at the beginning. After a awhile, like anything, it is just a process. And the variables allow you to play with the way the espresso tastes in the cup. I am no master ..... but I can "pull" a better shot than any barista around here .. at least on my own machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Filtered water is highly recommended. Tap water tends to have a flavor which may or may not be a good thing to taste in your coffee but more importantly, tap water has chemicals that can wreak havoc on an espresso machine and bring about an early demise. Chlorine, flouride, etc are not a good thing to have sitting in your tank, valves and tubes. I gave a super-automatic to a friend who gets his water from a well. Although I insisted that he use filtered water, he got lazy and within a year, the valves had frozen and were leaking and he threw the machine away....so sad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kennedy Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 ....... and most automatic espresso machines are rated at 12-14 atmospheres. On a lever-type machine, a good barista is able to alter the pressure to get the best shot - an automatic machine can't change the pressure thus it can only approximate the perfect shot. JBryan is right on the money here with this post. Stay away from Super autos .. they do not let you adjust enough. separate Grinder and Semi Auto. A lever machine will add another variable .... maybe as a second machine. Most prosumer machines have adjustable pressure . I have mine set to 9.0 bar. This is not something that is adjusted often, it generally requires taking the back off the machine. Once set, it does not change much ... but you need to be able to change it if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Filtered water is highly recommended. Tap water tends to have a flavor which may or may not be a good thing to taste in your coffee but more importantly, tap water has chemicals that can wreak havoc on an espresso machine and bring about an early demise. Chlorine, flouride, etc are not a good thing to have sitting in your tank, valves and tubes. I gave a super-automatic to a friend who gets his water from a well. Although I insisted that he use filtered water, he got lazy and within a year, the valves had frozen and were leaking and he threw the machine away....so sad! I wondered when someone was going to discuss the water. Having lived in So Cal, I know the water in Riverside and Venice and though it ain't poison it ain't very good at all. Even if you bring it to steam it will soon foul the machine with residue. I moved to north Idaho and the water is drawn from an ancient aquifer and it is gorgeous and wonderful tasting. Seriously bottle worthy stuff. So do you guys use tap water or do you buy special H2O? Sorry I'm no coffee connoisseur. Worked too many nightshifts and had my coffee palate ruined with dirty sock brews. Do these machines do de-caf in any way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kennedy Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Only filtered water here.... and thats how I get around using a machine that is supposed to plumbed into the house water lines. I pump out of 5 gallon carboys using a Flowjet pump ... from there it goes into an accumulator to reduce pulsing before feeding the machine its pressurized water. ... works like a charm. I also have a T in line and feed a small water spigot, (to the left of the grinder) so this is our filtered drinking water too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I did the search on La Pavoni and I now understand what everyone means by pulling a shot. I also love your last picture of your setup. Clean, neat and well thought out. You guys are now my new heroes! When I went to my coffee house this morning drinking my latte I was thinking to myself if I bought a machine and grinder I could save so much money, but I sure would miss looking at all the college girls butts. I also like the looks of the La Pavoni. I can see this is going to take a lot of research. I guess in the mean time I will go to my local shop, place my order and check out next semester’s butts. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to explain all this to me. I think I may have a new hobby very soon. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted December 14, 2007 Author Share Posted December 14, 2007 I use about 75% RO (reverse osmosis) water and mix in a little (25%) tap water to add back in a little of the minerals into the water.My machine is a pour over model so I can mix it easily. There is a kit available to plumb in Nuovo but I will keep it as a pour over for a while.Nice way to control the water into your machnie, that is what I guessed you did when you said that you were not plumbed into the house line.Danny, just think, if you had your own setup, you could make drinks for yourself and your wife in your underware, no need to get dressed to go to the coffee bar, then again, you might WANT to go to the coffee bar in your undies, [] There is so much to learn and while the target is always the same, your conditions are always changing so in a way, like golf, a true perfect game/shot is impossible.......well the perfect shot is possible, just takes a lot of work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Wayne, Wife??? If I had a wife I really don't think she would let me spend a couple hundred a month on CD's and coffee, let alone a 1K machine. I am leaving now to meet a friend at a coffee shop for coffee. If I had a machine at the house I could invite her over to my house for coffee and listen to some tunes! I want a new machine... NOW. Everyone have a great weekend and enjoy your coffee where ever you get it from. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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