......so is it fair now to declare Blu Ray the winner of the Format War?

[WMcD]

I cringe a bit when this is compared to Beta vs. VHS. In those days there really was no alternative. But these days SD-DVD is well intrenched. Most consumers have that as the status quo and by some standards are losing little by waiting things out.

My quip is that the BR vs HD-DVD war is not influencing the tides of public opinion just because there is not enough water to make a tide. Not enough buyers compelled to make a choice.

So the battle has to be fought at the studio level. They become the buyers, rather than the public. Therefore, if there are business models, they are at a B to B level and may well be in conflict.

Gil

[jbsl]

Both will lose if they don't lower the prices on BR/HD dvds. I'm not paying what BR/HD dvds cost.

BR/HD dvds do look better than regular dvds but to me it's not like going from VHS to regular dvds.

Once I do get a BR/HD dvd player I'll probably buy any new movies on BR/HD dvd but don't plan on replacing 300 regular dvds with BR/HD disc. Now there are certain movies that I will replace but probably only around 15% .

[Catharsis147]

LOL.....this arguing has gotten truly hilarious, though I must admit it is quite entertaining. Kinda like a technological Jerry Springer in writing.

I would agree with you JBSL, Blu Ray discs are simply too expensive now, though I would expect they will eventually drop dramatically relative to their current prices once things settle down. 15% repalcement seems about right on the money too. I would only replace a few movies in my collection, like Lord of the Rings series, Matrix series, Transformers, Braveheart and the Aliens series. Most other stufff I would hope to buy on Blu Ray proper.

[mas]

... and my argument continues to be:

#1 HD downloads are not viable now for 99.999% of
the US populace, whereas 50% of the US populace DOES have an HDTV

#2 HD downloads are inferior to the packaged
product in every single aspect except maybe convienience, and that is
debatable due to #1

#3 HD packaged media will continue to gain in
market share, maturity, and more low cost options will present themselvesin far
less time than it takes them to run fiber to my house

Bandwidth WILL get there, but when and with what
kind of HD product riding on it remains to be seen.

While Blu-ray may
have possibly won the war over HD DVD, in the end its likely not going to
matter with the advent of HD downloads.

Apples and T-bone steaks again. Stay on target...
stay on target!

Mas, you're assuming that everything
you just saw at CES is going to be implemented immediately (i.e. this year or
probably even the next three years). I can tell straight off that we in
America do not have the necessary Internet infrastructure to make something
like that a reality. In order to stream those HD downloads you would need a
fiber connection of at least 35-40Mbps (using HD DVD as a basis for bitrate,
plus overhead for error correction and anything else that may be happening on
that particular connection connection. Even the fastest FiOS option option
which clocks in at $160/month misses that mark by 5Mbps

Using best case scenarios, if someone
had a 6Mbps cable connection and actually had all of the bandwidth available to
them (no degredation due to errors or other customers on that particular cable
line), it would take someone 7.5 hours to download a 90 minute HD movie
assuming a 30Mbps encoding for 1080p audio and video. Not exactly an option for
the family who decides they want to watch a movie after dinner. So, uh, yeah,
this is me telling you it isn't possible ATM. Now will HD media become more
than a niche product? That's a whole other discussion which I don't think anyone
can do anything but discuss theories.

*I used 30mbps as a benchmark because
it is right around the max bitrate of HD DVD, which I feel is right around the
minimum bitrate one would need for a quality transfer of a HD video with 1080p
video and an advanced audio codec (Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA).

…the streaming discussion… occured in
another thread and while i didn't participate at length, i do recall your
argument was discredited soundly there as well.

it is more than acceptable for you to
believe, and rationalize your belief, all you want. you read some flyers
and they tout streaming technology is going to revolutionize the planet and
hard copy will be marginalized and you start jonesing. cool. you would
have fit right in 40 years ago insisting man would be routinely colonizing new
planets.

others realize the situation doesn't
fit the neat little model you have bought into, recognize the technical
limitations and most importantly human behavior and they disagree with your
assertion.

And having said that,
NO, I have never said nor implied that the hard copy market will disappear! But
it will become further marginalized, just as is happening in the music
industry

Music media (hard copy) sales are UP,
not DOWN - despite what you and RIAA are claiming. Please go back and look
at the last 10 years of annual sales and the number of artists making those
sales, as reported in trade rags such as Billboard. Like it or not - agree
with it or not - people still want factory, studio, hard media, just as they
will in the video/movie market for quite the foreseable future. I have already
stated that in this thread, and others.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

And having established all of those market fundamentals:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/apples_itunes_store_movies_outsell_hd_dvd_blu_ray_titles/

Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 12:41 AM
EST

Apple’s iTunes Store movies outsell HD
DVD, Blu-ray titles

Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 05:37 PM
EST

"Blu-ray titles outsold HD DVD in
the United States every single week of 2007, and the Blu-ray editions of titles
released on both formats consistently outsold their HD DVD counterparts, often
by 'significant'" margins. Total domestic sales of Blu-ray movie titles
topped six million in December 2007... By contrast, according to Home Media
Research's numbers, HD DVD didn't reach the 2.5 million mark until
mid-November," Melissa Perenson reported for PC World on January 07, 2008.



Full article here.



The first HD DVD titles were released in April 2006. Blu-ray Disc titles began
to be released in June 2006.



On September 12, 2006, Apple's iTunes Store began selling movies online by
offering over 75 movies from Walt Disney Pictures, Pixar, Touchstone Pictures
and Miramax Films.



On Tuesday, January 15, Apple CEO Steve Jobs announced that Apple had sold 7
million movies to date online via iTunes Store.



Therefore, we know:

• HD DVD has sold 2.5 million movies since April 2006 (20 months)

• Blu-ray has sold 6 million movies since June 2006, (18 months)

• Apple has sold 7 million movies since September 2006 (15 months)



Apple's iTunes Store has sold nearly three times more movies — in
"near-DVD quality" 640x480 resolution and U.S.-only, no less — than
HD DVD titles in 5 fewer months and more movies than Blu-ray titles in 2 fewer
months - all without the support of many major Hollywood studios (all of whom
are, of course, now onboard with Apple's new iTunes Movies Rentals which will
soon begin offering titles in High Definition (720p) with 5.1 Dolby Digital surround
sound - only via Apple TV, for now).



MacDailyNews Take: More than a few people
are going to keel over dead when they find out the results of Apple's movie
rentals and Apple TV unit sales. If on Tuesday, Steve Jobs had unveiled Apple
TV for the first time, starting at $229, along with iTunes Movie Rentals,
people today would be shouting from the rooftops about how Jobs has just
revolutionized yet another industry. As it is, they seem to have completely
missed what's about to happen simply because they've known about Apple TV for a
year. In this case, familiarity breeds stupidity. Stay tuned for many shocked
expressions from the currently oblivious.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well put!

I wonder what will happen when people discover that they can download video
content, and when HD
downloads can occur, and when business models actually reflect the fact that online deliverables
offer a more efficient strategic supply chain management system.

And to think that people will have a still increasing number of program sources without the requirement of investing in an exorbitantly priced BluRay system...

But nope, it will never happen,
as Anachronism has so convincingly explained.

Downloads will never have any significant impact on BluRay. Perhaps not, if the percentage market penetration of BR continues.

With so many HD capable TVs, why would anyone tolerate anything other than BluRay HD hard copy content?

I guess that is something that Sony has yet to figure out.

But I'm sure that you won't let facts confuse you!

And I realize that you wouldn't want to read the Wired article discussing changing recording industry- artist models at:

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/magazine/16-01/ff_byrne?currentPage=all

Oh, and below is another bit of obviously fabricated market information from the Wired/David Byrne article. Srback is right! Sales are booming! Especially of cassettes and records!

[oldbuckster]

Can't we all just get along here ? Gee, it's just media, ........ The only winner is the one that turns a profit !!!! Boy, it's cold out .........

[anarchist]

Therefore, we know:

• HD DVD has sold 2.5 million movies since April 2006 (20 months)

• Blu-ray has sold 6 million movies since June 2006, (18 months)

• Apple has sold 7 million movies since September 2006 (15 months)



Apple's iTunes Store has sold nearly three times more movies — in
"near-DVD quality" 640x480 resolution and U.S.-only, no less — than
HD DVD titles in 5 fewer months and more movies than Blu-ray titles in 2 fewer
months

Explain the math; when did 7 million vs 6 million become "three times more movies"? And when did crappy "640x480" become HD or even SD???? Your proof is a bunch of teens are downloading crappy video's to IPOD's? Hell, my kid likes downloading ringtones. Are Cd's in jeopardy?

You proved everyones point once again mas. Thank you. No more reason to debate this as you keep offering evidence which discounts your point - unless it has changed again.

[mas]

Therefore, we know:

• HD DVD has sold 2.5 million movies since April 2006 (20 months)

• Blu-ray has sold 6 million movies since June 2006, (18 months)

• Apple has sold 7 million movies since September 2006 (15 months)



Apple's iTunes Store has sold nearly three times more movies — in
"near-DVD quality" 640x480 resolution and U.S.-only, no less — than
HD DVD titles in 5 fewer months and more movies than Blu-ray titles in 2 fewer
months

Explain the math; when did 7 million vs 6 million become "three times more movies"? And when did crappy "640x480" become HD or even SD???? Your proof is a bunch of teens are downloading crappy video's to IPOD's? Hell, my kid likes downloading ringtones. Are Cd's in jeopardy?

You proved everyones point once again mas. Thank you. No more reason to debate this as you keep offering evidence which discounts your point - unless it has changed again.

OK, we will explain the math. You might want to sit while I go very slowly just for you.

iTunes sold nearly 3 times the number of HD-DVD: iTunes = 7 million HD-DVD= 2.5 million 7M/2.5M = 2.8 = ~ 3

I understand. Its very complicated and it involves reading for meaning. But then, now you will procede to tell them what they mean too, and how it supports your point!

"Are CDs in jeopardy?" Hmmm... So that is the issue? It wasn't mine. But in answer to your question, their sales are diminished due to alternative market delivery options. They are being marginalized.

The fact is the video industry is already seeing successful download models. And just like music, where the percentage of sales of CDs to downloads is being reduced, the same potential is already being realized. But you see, people are paying for the service. An while you can dismiss MP3s versus CDs, the result is lost CD sales.

And to the degree that a market exists who will download other formats results in less of a market to by your precious HD formats. They have an alternative. And instead of flocking to the format the fanboys say is so desireable, people are instead content and satisfied with other video alternatives. They do not feel compelled to invest in BR or HD-DVD.

My point has been that online distribution will further marginalize the BR and HD-DVD hard copy formats. Gee, we don't even need online distribution to see that, as these markets are already marginalized by their price of entry and the fact that most are already quite happy with standard DVDs.

And it also demonstrates that people are willing to forgo the expense the investment of several hundred bucks for BR profile 1 or 1.1 player to watch alternative formats. You see, that is marginalization. And it is evidence of an already robust business. And they have already announced that they will commence with 720p downloads which should offer increased options to a larger market who can watch HD movies without having to invest in hard copy BR medi at a higher cost per unit - both for the equipment and for the cost per movie.

And that does result in what is called marginalization. And since you had such a problem with math and reading for meaning above, I suspect that part of the problem here is that I am using English. You see, to marginalize means to:
"to reduce in prominence; relegate to a lower or outer edge, as of specific groups of people." Thus to be marginalized in the market is to be reduced from the most in demand status to a lesser demanded status. And to the degree that the consumer opts for readily available alternatives, another product is marginalized.

But as you seem to think that you have made your point unless no HD hard copies are sold and that the plants must close, you can enjoy your fantasy. You are arguing a point that NO ONE has ever made on this forum to my knowledge. And I can do the math.

To the degree that the market opts for other formats and other means of delivery, that is what is referred to as 'marginalization'. It means that others do not feel compelled to buy into the higher priced HD hard copy formats. Just as it does when folks are content to watch regular or upscaled DVDs on their regular or HD capable TVs. And if people are willing and content to download "crappy videos to iPods", that is like saying that more people are willing to buy Toyotas than to buy Porsches. And that marginalizes Porsche sales. They have additional choices, and they make them instead of feeling compelled to purchase the other option. Thus that other option is marginalized. And that is a problem that Sony, with its higher production costs, has yet to adequately address.

And to the degree that lower resolution material in a new market that many may not even be aware of is doing well - at least as well as the vaulted HD market s doing, bodes very well for some of these folks opting to use the service for higher res material which is coming. (Oh, except that you folks already proved that that is impossible.) And fanboy, NO ONE to my knowledge has ever predicted, nor has anyone even voiced the desire, that hard copy HD content disappear. But we have all talked of alternatives that provide suitable alternatives to the purchase of HD hard copy content. And just like MP3 sales relative to CDs, this market reality does not bode well for the marginalized HD hard copy content market.

Bottomline: Folks are exercising their market options and are opting for other formats, whether it be "crappy videos" or regular DVDs or upscaled DVDs. - meaning that they don't feel compelled to buy the BR players and over-priced media .

That has been my point for the last year. And anyone who has followed the various discussions realizes this - as while I have nothing against the HD formats, my position is, and has been, that there has not been a compelling reason for most to invest in either of them when you can get 'almost as good' with what they already have through a variety of other means, more cheaply. And Sony must aggressively address this issue, which to this date it has utterly failed to do, if it expects to make any significant inroads into the larger market.

And the growing availability of alternative HD sources, combined with the advent of HD downloads, when the "impossible" happens, will provide yet one more alternative to further marginalize the HD hard copy market, just as the Wii has done to the PS3, and MP3 sales have done to CDs. And no, this does not mean that CDs will cease to exist.

And this trend will be favored by the business community, with its significantly less expensive supply chain management processing overhead. Thus the 'same' product available via a different market vector will represent a more cost effective, and thus a higher margin of profit, alternative to business. And as a result, where might one reasonably expect the growing interest and support to be given by the business community? More hard copy deliverables? Hardly!

Now you can tell me that what I am saying is not what I have been saying for the past year. And you will be wrong yet again.

And while you are at it, you might want to sit down wth you kids and let them help you with your math.

*But the truth be known, Anachronism really has little to say about the entire HD issue. The truth is, if folks remember his incredulity when I had the unmitigated gaul to suggest that "both tubes and SS, if operated within their linear regions, can sound just fine" in the midst of the 'all tubes all of the time' Tube Taliban, Anachronism only shows up only to debate people, not ideas, and to attempt to denigrate them rather than to discuss concepts, which he can only reduce to black and white, just like he does when he interprets marginalizatin to be "no CDs" or "no HD hard copy material".. And despite the fact that he says that there is "no more reason to debate", unfortunately, he continues to try. And after seeing such a demonstrated display of his mathematical prowess - in addition to his repeated inability to read a simple sentence for meaning, I am frankly terrified of his logic skills. Literally. But its rather fun, in a perverse sort of way, to watch a seal continue to try to balance a ball on his nose...as long as he doesn't have to count them.

[Buckeye_Nut]

I say BD wins, some here will disagree with me. The software sales are now 85% in Blu-Ray's favor.

Yep.....

With a sales ratio's that lopsided, it will only be a matter of time before HD-DVD is dead. We have reached the point of no return, and HD-DVD is a fish out of water. I had a dream last night that I returned my Toshiba to BB for a refund, and they encouraged me keep the player after refunding my money.

LOL

[Guest srobak]

Apple’s iTunes Store movies outsell HD
DVD, Blu-ray titles

Again... apples and tbone steaks. iPod movies vs. all HiDef combined??? Why not just compare Ford truck sales to rollerblades?

Therefore, we know:

• HD DVD has sold 2.5 million movies since April 2006 (20 months)

• Blu-ray has sold 6 million movies since June 2006, (18 months)

• Apple has sold 7 million movies since September 2006 (15 months)

And? Hell - there are more iPods (and other portable media players not of DVD formats) out on the street than there are SD DVD players!

Apple's iTunes Store has sold nearly three times more movies — in
"near-DVD quality" 640x480 resolution and U.S.-only, no less — than
HD DVD titles in 5 fewer months and more movies than Blu-ray titles in 2 fewer
months

Again... and??? You are not comparing remotely like-markets. If I wanted to discuss "near dvd quality", we would be talking SVHS here, alright? Not HiDef disc formats and displays. You keep bringing in points of arguement that do not apply TO the arguement... you do this all the time, and I'm sorry, but this is probably the most extreme example to date. It simply does not apply, and this is not at all a like-market.

which will
soon begin offering titles in High Definition (720p) with 5.1 Dolby Digital surround
sound - only via Apple TV, for now).

5 years too late. 720 is dead. Yeah - it looks better than SD-DVD, but the market hasn't cared about it in a very long time. As home entertainment continues to develop and higher HiDef definitions are brought to the market - the portable media market will continue to be pulling up the rear using older, "almost as good as" technologies, as they become cheaper due to giving way to newer technologies. Again - history has demonstrated this time and again. "All this has happened before, and it will all happen again."

Oh, and below is another bit of obviously fabricated market information from the Wired/David Byrne article. Srback is right! Sales are booming! Especially of cassettes and records!

Billboard sports a completely different set of numbers and trends.

[Hunt]

I've been car [au] shopping the last month, and reading auto forums instead of A/V. Just tuned in today for a moment. Glad to see that I haven't missed anything significant. Kind of like the daily soaps, I guess. []

[anarchist]

mas, mas, mas.

My bad, perhaps I confused you or perhaps it was my lack of clarity after reading more of your nonsensical and meandering thoughts on the subject ; I was exploring the difference between high definition DVD's and downloads. I realize now you wish to focus on the difference between HD DVD, the technology, and downloads to support the same misleading statistic the author offered. Of course, your approach is often the prescribed debate strategy when you are losing an argument and believe this misdirected focus can obfuscate the fact your position has been soundly defeated.

Therefore, instead of my pointing out the misleading headline "Apple's iTunes Store has sold nearly three times more movies than
HD DVD titles", let me rephrase it to say there were 8.5 million high-definition hard-copy movies sold vs. 7 million low-definition downloads. Do the math and tell me which sold more. While we are at it, lets be more accurate (I will let you do the math), and compare how many SD&HD movies were sold vs Apples downloads since that is the accurate comparison and would indicate the impact downloads are having on the existing distribution model.

While you speak about this as new technology, I was downloading those same crap quality movies 6 years ago as were other folks. High definition DVD's on the other hand are a new technology.

You claim streaming technology makes downloading movies feasible and does away with hard-copy movies; this is an erroneous assumption based on any number of factors including:

Human nature - people want a tangible item they can put their hands on, see, and resell if they desire. It is why hard-copy DVDs (whether HD or SD) have such pretty packaging rather than coming in a plain brown box.

The infrastructure is not in place to everyone's home and will be decades before it has a broad enough base. Those homes will purchase HD or SD both of which marginalize downloads.

As the number of downloads increase, the available bandwidth will decrease making people less satisfied with the choice. Oh, yes, scream about BitTorrent. There are a number of factors which will marginalize its acceptance but you know that as well.

Your interpretations of the data are severly flawed. The facts are acceptance of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD has been slow due to the format wars (which we have already learned Blu-Ray won with Blu-Ray grabbing 93% of the market after Warner went Blu-Ray - the subject of the thread, by the way) and the costs of Blu-Ray will diminish as market share increases allowing more people to purchase units further driving down the cost. Your can read up on this reality under "economies of scale."

Your Blu-Ray spec quotes are laughable. Most people won't utilize the features the revisions to Blu-Ray provides - how many people today utilize the features of SD players? I frankly don't care if I can have pop-ups or multiple scene angles appear if I am using a later revision of Blu-Ray. We can discuss each of the "features" these incremental versions provides but for the majority of people, they won't use them.

Streaming video is great for your PC or your portable IPOD or Nano or whatever, but it won't cut it for people who want to enjoy their HD televisions and who don't have and won't have the necessary broadband connections or who aren't accepting of the limitations of such technology.

Lastly, genius, I never claimed SS can't sound fine. Nor have I claimed any of the other things you have attributed to me in an attempt to win an argument I never made. As others have mentioned, that is an erroneous argument you manufactured and debated by yourself while continuing to attempt to impress yourself with your wit and canny ability to delude yourself. Take responsibility, stop modifying your position when the errors of it become apparent and seek therapy for that insecurity complex of yours.

Frankly, I enjoy laughing at your long-winded self-absorbed diatribes. The futile attempts to impress others and garnish some level of self-importance and technical leadership position hints dearly at your pathological narcissism.

[Deang]

Ouch.

[Catharsis147]

Anarchist,

That disclaimer is hilarious!!!

Oh, and ditto on DeanG's "Ouch" comment....

So, how long before Blu Ray prices actually come down to DVD level?? a year, two years??

And when are they going to standardize Dolby True HD and DTS Loseless audio?? I don't actually won an HDTV or a Blu Ray player quite yet, but inquiring minds want to know.....

[Professor.Ham.Slap]

So, how long before Blu Ray prices actually come down to DVD level?? a year, two years??

And when are they going to standardize Dolby True HD and DTS Loseless audio?? I don't actually won an HDTV or a Blu Ray player quite yet, but inquiring minds want to know.....

To Current DVD prices? I'd say probably around a year. The barriers manufacturers have in front of them is better yeilds on the blue lasers and maybe finally being able to shift the laser lens from precision glass manufacturing to a plastic lens in much the same way DVD did originally. Already though, we've seen prices fall from $999 to $399. Shouldn't be too much longer.

As for DTHD and DTS, they're really already standardized as far as you (the user) needs to be concerned. Sure, the decoding is done in a different place than we're used to, but the only prerequisite is simply that your receiver has HDMI, which is a necessity regardless of whether you're passing PCM or the actual track bitstream.

[jbsl]

The price of the player is not that bad but paying $25-30 or more for a BR dvd is way too much for me. I don't see any reason to buy them until they drop the prices on the BR dvd discs.

[Guest srobak]

Yet another + in HD's favor... not just cheaper decks (HDA2 cost me $90), but also cheaper media - haven't paid more than $20 for any of my discs which among others includes The Eagles, Transformers, Miami Vice, and Batman Begins.

[damonrpayne]

All in all the promise of lower price hd-dvd media didn't carry much water:

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Check out "average price". I believe they're about the same at Best Buy.

[Guest srobak]

Cool site. Changing those graphs to "show all" gives a much better understanding about the volumes of both media we are talking about. Quite a bit higher than most people realize, I bet. And while it does show BR deck and media sales *currently* outpacing HDDVD - it is not the windfall that the press and some folks in online fora are making it out to be... and it is quite a bit less actually than in past date ranges. You can also see that the number of available titles between formats is not the "70/30 market share" being claimed either. It's a much closer fight than people realize.

[Buckeye_Nut]

The only thing that matters is media sales $$$$$$, and to achieve those numbers.......you need significant day/date fresh new releases exiting from the theaters for home consumption.

..........and the first full week after the WB anouncement those sales numbers were 85% BD: 15% HD. Will they remain at that level?? Highly doubtful, but it's not going to get any better in 2008 once WB officially dumps HD-DVD in May.

With sales ## this lopsided, it's only a matter of time before the remaining two studios dump their HD-DVD support for financial reasons.

The total ## of available titles means absolutely nothing......... the only titles that matter are those that sell!! As it stands now, HD-DVD's aren't selling.

[mas]

Your interpretations of the data are severly flawed. The facts are acceptance of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD has been slow due to the format wars (which we have already learned Blu-Ray won with Blu-Ray grabbing 93% of the market after Warner went Blu-Ray - the subject of the thread, by the way) ...

Your Blu-Ray spec quotes are laughable.

Thank heaven we have you as a source of quality data.

The only surprise is that, even with FREE players being offered, the sales(sic) figures weren't 100%!

And it's all due to Warner Bros' announcement!

ROFLMAO!

NPD: Free Blu-ray player deals led to boosted sales
this month

http://www.betanews.com/article/NPD_Free_Bluray_player_deals_led_to_boosted_sales_this_month/1201203983

January 24, 2008

A report from NPD Group claimed Blu-ray standalone player sales accounted
for 93 percent of the high-def market for the week ending January 12, but NPD
itself won't stand behind the numbers,
saying they were leaked and that weekly sales data is not a long-term
indicator.

According to Stephen Baker, vice
president of industry analysis for NPD, the data "came from an NPD
subscriber" and "wasn't approved for release from NPD." He added
that the firm typically sees big fluctuations in sales volumes each week, and
never makes long-term judgments based on weekly data.

So what went on the week ending January 12 that led to such
high numbers in Blu-ray standalone player sales?

Bundling deals with
HDTVs, explained Baker. Sharp Blu-ray players accounted for over 30% of sales, as they were
offered free to buyers of the company's LCD televisions.

Sony -- also accounting for one-third of sales -- had a
similar $400-off deal for
Blu-ray players when buying a Sony HDTV.

Panasonic, like Sharp, offered a free Blu-ray player and
made up for the remaining third of units sold.

Samsung Blu-ray sales were almost non-existent, as the
company did not offer any special deals to TV buyers.

The NPD figures did not include Sony's
PlayStation 3 or Microsoft's HD DVD add-on for the Xbox 360 -- only standalone
players.

Baker wouldn't get specific -- since
NPD normally never even comments on weekly sales data -- but said there was
some drop in HD DVD player sales. For its part, the HD DVD Promotional Grouptold BetaNews the weekly sales data was from before the HD DVD player price
drop Toshiba announced last week.

Baker did provide BetaNews some insight
as to how NPD counts sales. It receives its data from point-of-sale systems
from a number of retail outlets across the United States. He would not say how
many retailers send data to NPD, but said it was "double digits."

NPD's numbers do not include online
sales from the likes of Amazon, where Toshiba's HD-A3 HD DVD player is the
number one seller in the DVD player category and number 14 in all of
electronics. By contrast, standalone Blu-ray players do not make the
electronics list.

So, again tell us how what they are saying isn't really what they mean.

After all, it can't be true, as what they say has the audacity to disagree with you and your erroneous and simplistic head up your arse assumptions.

Please tell use what market marginalization means.

Funny we aren't seeing the sales figures against all other video sourcing. But is that really a surprise?

Anyone have the latest sales figures for DVD-A vs SACD? Or better yet, DVD-A/SACD against CD?

The real loser is the consumer who has not benefited by higher resolution sources!