tubes for my new khorns

[mobile homeless]

I do not think the previous two posters are

familiar with the band "creed".

Indeed.

Mike, I think the Moondogs would be FINE for the Chorus, especially considering I am using them right now on 98dB Cornwalls and getting good volume...but my room is not very large. Still, I like to listen to it LOUD at times.... as in RIGHT NOW. I am cranking a band called SMOG's first release... I doubt anyone on this board is familiar with this band. IT definitely is no CREED, however.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-16-2002 at 04:28 PM

[jazman]

Mobile, edster, and all,

I love movies, but I love music more, especially Jazz. I have to vote for seperate systems.

For most, the cost of seperate systems is not easy to justify. My HT setup is just fine with SS amplification, KLF20's, KSW15 and KSW12 subs, RS3II's and KG 4.2s. The music on the other hand is getting a different treatment, in different rooms with '75 Belles, Moondogs 2A3's being unpacked, though currently using a wonderful HF81. Once the Moondogs are in service, the HF81 will be used to power another 2 channel music only system with '80 Cornwalls in a different room. For those who say you need a sub with Belles, has not heard them powered with this HF81. I can't wait to provide testimony with the 2A3 Moondogs, but I still haven't made a preamp decision. (If only Mr. Wright would call me back.) I've worked in a night spot hosting the worlds best JAZZ performers playing LIVE, so I know a bit about how the music should sound. Sorry, I'm not a big rock fan so I can't speak of that genre with Belles. Blues, classic R&B are also served very well to the Belles by the HF81. No need for a sub.

The move to 2 channel only was a move I knew I had to make. The move to using tube amplification was brought about by posting questions in this forum on how to get the wonderful rich sound from my Belles that 100 wpc of SS amplification was not providing. There's no turning back.

Now,........

If I can ever wrap up things at work I can go play with my Moondogs.............I'll be able to tell ya' more later.

BTW the HF81 is push pull.

Klipsch out.

PS. See, I really am awake when the sun is in the sky.

This message has been edited by jazman on 01-16-2002 at 04:34 PM

[Mike Lindsey]

Hey Justin,

I told ya you would get some answers to the tube question. I hope you end up being happy with whatever you get and let us know how it all turns out...

Mike

------------------

My Music Systems

[mike stehr]

No Kelly, I'm not much for Commercial Airplay

Music.

But you got to understand, I listen to material

that makes Creed seem like Choir Boy music.

Preferably Independent Labels, also.

Can the Moondoggies still hang?

(I don't need to offend everyone in the neighborhood.)

It's a 12'x14'x7' room, no need for gobs of power,

either.

What label is SMOG under, BTW?

Thanx for the reply.

[mobile homeless]

Smog is really Bill Callahan and he started on the Drag City label. Listening at the moment to "Julius Caesar" his first release. Lets just say ole Bill marches to his own beat...

I think the Moondogs will hang with all sorts of things...but based on that post you left in the "how loud can you Klipsch go" thread, I am not sure if the Moondog is actually the way to go. Judged on those terms as the major criteria, I would perhaps look elsewhere.

kh

[mike stehr]

Maybe so.

But also understand that I don't listen to

106 decibels with the volume hiked up to 10

all the time, if ever.

What SPL are you listening at?

I guess if the Moondogs can't keep at least a

consistent 80-95Db's with higher peaks, then

I geuss I should look elsewhere.

Thanks for the reply.

[edster00]

Mike,

A buddy of mine liked my first tube amp the Jolida 801A (80wpc integrated) the best. My favorite was a pair of VTL Tiny Triodes Limited Edition. The TT's are an outstanding value (IMHO) rated at 25wpc Triode/45wpc Tetrode mode (switchable) and go for ~$1200 mint if you can find them. I had to sell a pair of the TT's to get the Moondogs. I'm not disappointed, but I wish I had the TT's too!

------------------

Ed W

[mike stehr]

Thanks, Edster.

[jks20]

I knew some of you where going to give me a hard time about liking certain bands, but don't judge em until you see them live. Creeds concert walked all over the aerosmith concert I went to. Just to let you know I'm 20 And have always listened to rock, not heavy metal, but just rock. I also listen to stevie ray vaugnh, led zepllin, pink floyd, and a host of others. Given some of these bands don't put out the best of recordings, some of them put out pretty good ones. I don't listen at levels that drive someone out of the room. Everyone has there taste of music and mine is what it is. I do appreciate all the help on this though.

[jks20]

Thanks Mike for telling me to ask this question here with many fellow audio enthusiasts who have been very helpful.

[mobile homeless]

Lordy...dont get sensitive! I have more racket in vinyl than you could imagine! Try listening to ***** Galore, Boss Hog, Death of Samantha, The Electric Eels, Volcano Suns, Mission of Burma, Lubricated Goat, The Cows, Jesus Lizard, Helios Creed.... etc. I wasnt giving you hell about your selection as much as wondering in amusement at the thought of you listening to Creed through a 2A3 amp... which would, in all honesty, probably do fine.

My heart belongs to guitar driven garage lo-fi racket but I love great 50s and 60s jazz as well as classical. So dont get so sensitive... and dont turn it down too early.

kh

ps- Jesus..this board just edited my post! I cant say Puss(y) galore? What is this place coming to? pain.

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-16-2002 at 09:37 PM

[jks20]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be sensative. I realyy do apperciate your help, mobile homeless. You know wayaround tube gear and I'm just trying to find the etup for me that gives me the best sound for the type of music I listen to. I went over to look at the otls, they look like nice amps. What about the big brother the otl i think it was 8. Have you ever heard this one matched to a pair of k-horns. right know I'm open to all possibilities on the equipment i should pair with my khorns. I agree on the subject of not using a sub with music and also keeping the ht and music system seperate. I got ride of my ht setup to go strictly a two channel one, because I listen to music 90% of the time and could never get the sound in music I was looking from my H.T. setup. I'm not really into all the audiophile terms. I just think that if a system sounds the way you or I want ours to then we each have the best system in the world to us, because that is what you or I like. I'm just looking for something to work magic with my khorns, nothing more or less

[mobile homeless]

jks20, dont worry! I understand where you are coming from. Dont take everything I say to heart, especially when I am in the state of mind I am in today, which is a mixture of pure insanity mated with a bottle of red wine and some fine tunes at top volume with my loonball wife singing along as well. Yes, it has been quite a day. And DAMN if the system was ON tonight! One thing about tubes, vinyl and horns... the damn sound can vary depending on all sorts of things...not the least of which is MOOD, of course, but also other more technical aspects. My 20 year old Linn LP-12 sounds different depending on Moon phase, tide, humidity, Jupiter's orbit...etc.

But all was well this eve.

Guided by Voices and My Bloody Valentine gave way to John Coltrane's "Impressions" and the song "India" which is a mastery of sax movement including the great Eric Dolphy who offers the perfect counter to Coltrane... Dolphy is just so damn great. Man, this stuff sounds amazing via SET and Cornwalls! Just as alive and open and enveloping as you could imagine. mdeneen, this is the kind of sound that just cant be duplicated with push pull tubes, although, as you so rightly said, they have other things that make them a pleasure. I love both.

The winter time at the beach is the best. No one around, music carrying out into the dunes, and ocean air....

The horrors of corrosion are staved off yet one more day.

kh

ps- Interesting post, mdeneen!

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-17-2002 at 02:22 PM

[Soeren Basboell]

jks20,

I wrote in another column, that I am actually manufacturing an amplifier, which I find - satisfying. Until now it has been superior to all it has been compared to, and I have already got the first complaint about it:

I sold one to a family in Denmark, and everybody was happy. However, they have a mother in law, a very kind woman, with whom they had normal good social contact. But now she is visiting them so much only in order to listen to the amplifier (and its music, I hope) that it begins to be a little of a burden. So I am looking forward to a trial like the tobacco industri, about introducing addictive non declared elements into audio equipment...

It is a power amplifier with four inputs and a potentiometer, or more correctly an Elma based 10kOhm attenuator, as I after many years with potentiometers really hate them. The point is that I find it an advantage to avoid the volume control in a preamplifier if you are using high level linear sources, e.a. a CD player of reasonable quality. You avoid low level signals in the signal cables and plugs and get a much simpler wiring, which is good.

Whatever you do, you should in my mind try several different amplifiers and chose yourself what you find the best. The main problem here - I hope later to make it an independent forum - is that you perceive mostly the musical values with your subconscience, which is about one million times bigger than your conscience, and if you try to intellectualise it, as you have to in most A-B comparisons, you are as far away from the real problem as you can come. You should just ask: Do I really feel the music? Do I really understand why Oscar Peterson is phrasing these bars in that way?

A good and easy way of evaluating a system is quite simply to ask somebody near who likes music and is not at all interested in the technical aspect, typically it could be your wife or a friend. Let them listen when you are smalltalking over a cup of tea, and then see if they are taken away by the intensity of the music. Dont play loud as it has an intellectualising effect. This is in my opinion the most effective way af revealing theese kinds of very nasty distortions which are so difficult to measure and even more difficult to live with over a longer time.

Good luck,

Søren

PS. If you, or somebody else on this board is interested in trying my amplifier solution, then give med a mail.

This message has been edited by Soeren Basboell on 01-17-2002 at 01:11 PM

[mike stehr]

Whoa! Behind all the Jazz albums, Mobile Homeless

is kind of a Rock Monster after all.

I have some Jesus Lizard, found out about these

guys from the Melvins.

(There's a band that will make you cringe in your

rather refined musical booties!)

Ya know Kelly, these are some great band choices,

I'll have to check these out, if easy to obtain.

I'm listening to Iggy Pop right now, Is this

too heavy for your taste?

Dog Faced Hermans, these guys aren't bad,

I picked this up a couple days ago.

I gotta agree, Indie labels are way to go.

Do you seriously think I listen to 114 decibels

of music all the time?(Or even 100?)

Have a good one!

[JBryan]

Jks20,

Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to the debate. In my opinion, $3000 is a gracious plenty for what you're looking for (especially in the used market) although I'd flip the budget - $2000 for a pre and $1000 for the amp(s). A judicious search will uncover many combos that will work well with the Khorns. If you're into Credd and their lik, you probably want that over-emphasized bass the recording companies have tended to produce these past few decades. I find it impossible to come back from a rock concert and reproduce that huge, deep bass through a pr. of Khorns which under the best of conditions, barely make it to 35hz. If you're looking to reproduce that BOOM, then horns are probably not in your future no matter what amp design you put behind them. I agree with MHomeless that subs just wont work seamlessly with horns and you'd have to spend almost as much as you did for the Khorns trying to get close. If you're in love with your speakers (and why not!), I'd suggest either a 100+w/ch push/pull or better yet, an OTL amp. Both will give you plenty of volume on the bass side and the OTL will offer a good bit of the speed and dynamics of SET. Solid State is fine and does everything well - just not as well as tubes in my limited experience (no offense non-tubers). I've tried the Transcendent T8 monoblocks (90w/ch.) and stereo (25w/ch.) amps and I found that while the monos delivered a bit more separation, they sounded very simlar with the Khorns in most respects and I couldn't justify the difference in price ($2200 and $900 respectively on the used market). I imagine that either would suit your needs as well as the T16. But if you're looking for the most realistic, seductive and moving sound to emanate from your Khorns, I'd strongly suggest an SET design and the lower the watts, the better. You'll have to give up that BIG THUMP but in return you get more detail, better, faster dynamics and oh that liquid midrange... nothing else quite like it. I went from 200w/ch. SS to 100w/ch. P/P to 17w/ch SET (845) to 3.5w/ch. SET (2A3) to OTL and finally back to the 3.5w/ch. SET (so far) and I'm looking closely at a few 1w/ch 45 amps and kits. I listen to all sorts of music including the likes of King Crimson, BLUE, Mike Keneally, and yes, even groups like Creed, NIN and Incubus. All these artists share a rather heavy-handed bass and drum section and I'm perfectly delighted with the sound through a flea-powered amp although they don't present the intimacy of 50s and 60s jazz or chamber music. Anyway, this is just my opinion and I've probably said too much already. Your ears (and what's in between) are the experts and they'll tell you what's best. Happy Hunting.

[jks20]

Thanks for all the replies. JBryan, I'm not to much into over down bass with gobs of thump. Just quick bass you can feel while listening to dynamic music.

By the way I love the sound of horns. I sold my klf-20 setup a few months back and bought a pair of paradigm studio 100'sv2. While they where nice speakers they didn't have that feeling that I got while listening to my klipsch. So I got ride of them and I listened to many speakers, including the B&W nautilis 803(way overrated)nht 3.3,psb goldi and anyother speakers I could listen to within a 200 mile radius. Nothing to me came close to the sound that I remembered from my klf series. So I figured you never have enough of a good thing so I found a pair of khorns and jumped on the opurtinity to buy them. I can't wait to hear them in my home. I think based on the information that everyone has given so far that a transcendent otl8 might just be what i'm looking for. If I decide that it is not what I want then I could sell it and get a moondog. I do also listen to other types of music besides rock. I also like some classical and a few jazz albums. No matter who it is I like a lot of acoustic guitar. At first I hated bands like creed and other new age rock groups, until I saw them in concert.

Also where have or do you now of an trandescent otl8 amp selling for 900. I would definitely pick one up. Also have you tried the upgrade from trancendent that lowers the noise of the amp. Also at this moment I'm listening to the eagles through a pair of sb3's that i bought my dad for christmas.

[jks20]

Well I'm torn between two tube amps. First is the transdecent otl-8 and the second is the bat vk60. The bat uses single ended circuitry, but provides more power than a moondog or the transcendent. It is going to be one of these two so could someone please help me in making my decision. I do not have the ability to hear either so I'm going to have to play it by advice.

[mike stehr]

Have you listened to any tube amplifiers?

If you can go somewhere and listen to some

Tube gear nearby, I would take advantage

of it.

There is no Tube amplifiers to check out

where I live, unless I drive to the west side of

State.

This Sucks, because I would like to check out

Valve amplifiers, before I dive into purchases.

And the only way I could afford these amplifiers,

is if I bought in kit form, and nickel and

dime my way to the finished result.

What kits are good to buy?

Hell, I thought the Moondogs would be great idea.

Buy the upgrade kit first, the the naked kit,

and then Tubes.(Good quality, of course.)

It would take forever, but It's the only way my poor

self can do it.

But now I'm told that these particular amplifiers

won't fit in my musical/listening criteria.

So what ever you pick up, post your reports.

I'm curious, because I feel our listening levels

and music criteria have more similarities.

(We like listening at slightly higher SPL.)

Still, I don't think listening at 80-95 decibels with

a little more in peaks is such a terrible thing.

Good Luck!

[edster00]

Mike,

I prefer to listen in the 85-95dB range (+ peaks). My Moondogs do this nicely in my set-up. They actually go a lot higher than that since I fixed the volume knob problem I was having on my preamp (but I don't know how much higher yet).

If I was listening to mostly "hard rock/heavy metal/head banging" music I would have stuck with my VTL Tiny Triodes as they handled that type of music extremely well. The VTL's just didn't have the midrange magic that the 2A3 amps have.

------------------

Ed W