Need Help - 2004 Klipschorns

[Catbo]

I have a set of Klipschorns built in 2004. My plans were to keep it all stock and never modify them but after building the Super "C" Walls

See here: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/102542.aspx

speakers, I'm thinking about what I can do to them to get the level of performance that I am hearing in the Super "C" Walls. The Klipschorns sound great but I'm hearing a little more detail, resolution, more dynamics (larger?), taller sound, fuller vocals, and more natural sounding. I would guess the taller sound is because of the taller mid horn? The Klipschorns also seem a bit brighter sounding and more 2D sounding compared to the Super "C" Walls sounding not as bright and more 3D sounding. I don't even know how to describe it but the only way I can think of how to.

If I change out the crossovers in the Klipschorns, will this give me more of the 3d sound, or does this have to do with using a tractrix horn in Super "C" Walls? Will I have to change the horn on the Klipschorns? (I'm hoping not). The Super "C" Walls are using Bob Crites CornScala crossovers and if I remember right said sonicap on it. If I changed to Crites Klipschon Sonicap crossovers, will this give me the more 3d detail I'm seeking? I'm looking to bring the Klipschorns to the next level and wanted to ask your help if just changing the crossovers will do it? Thanks, Catbo

[Catbo]

The Super "C" Walls are using basically the same drivers as the Klipschorns.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I found K Horns to be very two dimensional btu I only used the K400 horn.

I am curious about the midrange horn that you are using. Have you compared it to a Tractrix horn? If it sounds good it is quite a bargain at $35 each.

[LarryC]

I may have missed it -- what electronics are you using and what is the rest of your setup?

[Catbo]

From some reviews I've read on that mid horn, it gets some great remarks of being very good. I don't have enough experience to know personally myself though how different it would be from others.

I have several system setups and I was listening to the Klipschorns some more tonight with different amps. What I did notice tonight is that I have to give the Klipschorns more volume and then they start to open up and start sounding more detailed and dynamic but it's at louder volume than I listen too so it's loud, even at 20feet listening position where I worry if I will disturb the neighbors. I'll have to spend some more time with them to see if I can figure this out?

[consistent]

Hi,

I too have a pair of AK4 2004 KHORNS and have done some extensive 'fiddling' with these but not to the crossover network...yet!

It is important to get some good gear to play through these beasts. The more cleaner, clearer and faster the better. I have found that the K401 is not flash when compared against a tractrix (rather dull and 2D). I built my own tractrix lens and combined with some room treatments have dramatically improved the sound. I now use Bob's tweeter and have positioned this in a vertical plane on the inside edge of the tractrix. I found the closer you get the tweeter to the tractrix the more mid/high integration you achieve. Each speaker has its own corner where they sit snug and the tractrix/tweeter are pointed about 1m short of my listening position (I have them sitting on top of the bass bin as I have removed the 'top hat'). I get 3D! Sometimes scares the life out of visitors (love doing this).

Cheers

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Hi,

I too have a pair of AK4 2004 KHORNS and have done some extensive 'fiddling' with these but not to the crossover network...yet!

It is important to get some good gear to play through these beasts. The more cleaner, clearer and faster the better. I have found that the K401 is not flash when compared against a tractrix (rather dull and 2D). I built my own tractrix lens and combined with some room treatments have dramatically improved the sound. I now use Bob's tweeter and have positioned this in a vertical plane on the inside edge of the tractrix. I found the closer you get the tweeter to the tractrix the more mid/high integration you achieve. Each speaker has its own corner where they sit snug and the tractrix/tweeter are pointed about 1m short of my listening position (I have them sitting on top of the bass bin as I have removed the 'top hat'). I get 3D! Sometimes scares the life out of visitors (love doing this).

Cheers

The Tractrix did help? I never tried the Tractrix horns and my complaint was always that the K Horns had a flat soundstage and a hole in the middle. I am going to have to build a pair of these and try them out.

[oscarsear]

I also had AK4 2004 Khorns. They were much brighter than a pair of 1982 Khorns I'd owned before. I would not refer to them as two dimensional, just lacking bass. It is the AK4 crossover. It was tuned to the hearing tastes of a "select" group of listeners. I made a number of changes in them but the greatest change came when the AK4's left and ALK steep slope crossovers replaced them. They blossomed like a cherry tree in spring. Ultimately they ended up with JBL 2482 midrange drivers and JBL 2404 tweeters. I'm using off the shelf P-Audio mid range horns but would love to try some tractix. I use an Accuphase E530 integrated amp and a Sony 777ES SACD source. Pleased as punch every time I fire it up, low volume, high volume and everything in between.

[consistent]

Yes the tractrix was a big improvment it opened up the sound stage and by poitioning it with the tweeter in a vertical plane I can now get a solid centre image. I had my younger son (16) with me last night and we were listening to some heavy rock (Metalicca, ACDC,Ramstein). He still can't get over how I have the singers out in front, centre stage. A helmholtz resonator or two also helps. Mostly though, you get a good recording with an engineer who knows what to do and bingo there are the musicians in the room with you! I have a spare pair you could try out but unfortunately I live way down south and freight to your door would be a killer.

I am actually one of the few who likes the AK4 network when (from memory) I compare with what I had many years ago (KHORN 1976). The bass is enormous when set up right but I would like to experiment with active crossover networks...when time permits.

Cheers

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I also had AK4 2004 Khorns. They were much brighter than a pair of 1982 Khorns I'd owned before. I would not refer to them as two dimensional, just lacking bass. It is the AK4 crossover. It was tuned to the hearing tastes of a "select" group of listeners. I made a number of changes in them but the greatest change came when the AK4's left and ALK steep slope crossovers replaced them. They blossomed like a cherry tree in spring. Ultimately they ended up with JBL 2482 midrange drivers and JBL 2404 tweeters. I'm using off the shelf P-Audio mid range horns but would love to try some tractix. I use an Accuphase E530 integrated amp and a Sony 777ES SACD source. Pleased as punch every time I fire it up, low volume, high volume and everything in between.

I have the parts for a very similar setup. The only difference is a 2470 midrange driver and electronic crossover. How do you like the 2482's?

[SilverSport]

interestingly I upgraded my 1983 KHorns with the upgrade kit and AK-4s...mine do not lack for bass powered by McIntosh SS (initially) and soon after Craig's NOSValves VRDs and Mark's JMA Blueberry Mk I...I don't find them bright at all...mine do make a decent seal to the walls but I still haven't gotten the pipe insulation for the backs yet...

Bill

[oscarsear]

I also had AK4 2004 Khorns. They were much brighter than a pair of 1982 Khorns I'd owned before. I would not refer to them as two dimensional, just lacking bass. It is the AK4 crossover. It was tuned to the hearing tastes of a "select" group of listeners. I made a number of changes in them but the greatest change came when the AK4's left and ALK steep slope crossovers replaced them. They blossomed like a cherry tree in spring. Ultimately they ended up with JBL 2482 midrange drivers and JBL 2404 tweeters. I'm using off the shelf P-Audio mid range horns but would love to try some tractix. I use an Accuphase E530 integrated amp and a Sony 777ES SACD source. Pleased as punch every time I fire it up, low volume, high volume and everything in between.

 

I have the parts for a very similar setup.  The only difference is a 2470 midrange driver and electronic crossover.  How do you like the 2482's?

I use them with their phenolic diaphragms and they are marvelous. Very pure all the way through their range. I chose them because of their performance down to 300Hz. I cross at 400 to 450 and I wanted a driver with a solid shoulder below that frequency. All frequencies and drivers mesh well. It would be nice to try them with a tractix horn. But they are a 2 inch driver and horns that size are rare and costly.

[oscarsear]

interestingly I upgraded my 1983 KHorns with the upgrade kit and AK-4s...mine do not lack for bass powered by McIntosh SS (initially) and soon after Craig's NOSValves VRDs and Mark's JMA Blueberry Mk I...I don't find them bright at all...mine do make a decent seal to the walls but I still haven't gotten the pipe insulation for the backs yet...

Bill 

The AK4 is an interesting animal. People seem to like them a lot or not like them at all. I thought what I was hearing was just me. But, my parents visited and they independently arrived at the same conclusion. (They were the only other people who had listened to both sets of speakers.) I could not A/B the speakers but I did A/B the AK4 with ALK's crossover. I ran one of each crossover in each speaker, at the same time. The difference in bass was quite discernible. And, yes the Khorns were properly cornered and they have the pipe insulation. Perhaps Al's crossovers are just a better product. They're certainly not inexpensive. I am very satisfied with the results where before I was darn near angry every time I fired up the system.

[Catbo]

I've spent more time on the Klipschorns. I've always had good bass with them, someone did suggest to use pipe insulation around the back to get a tight seal around them. I picked some up at Home Depot and it seems the bass is a little better, or maybe all in my head, but it sounds like little more, little tighter, little fuller.

I have some good gear that mates well with Klipsch, learned years back when I started out with Klipsch speakers it needs good gear . I did take a Solid State amp I have that has 360watts per channel and more warm sounding to check the brightness out. Giving more current helped get some detail and resolution out more but sounds little bright from my other Klipsch speakers, maybe it's the room, it has mostly carpet. Another person told me it's the AK-4 crossovers too! Brighter sounding out of the past Klipschorn crossovers. I've never heard past Klipschorns to compare to know for sure.

When I say 2D, not meaning to imply the Klipschorns are only two-dimensional in sound but when compaing it to the Super "C" speakers, it's the only way I could think of how to explain the difference I was hearing, probably not the accurate way to discribe it and wondering if the difference was from the tractrix horn or crossovers. From what I'm hearing, sounds like the tractrix horn is making the difference with the fill-in soundstage and detail, resolution, bright would be the crossovers? It's hard for me to imagine that Klipsch would design a crossover (AK-4) to sound more towards the bright side, so I'm thiking it must be my room? I guess the next thing to do is add more damping materials to the room and see if that helps. I like the way the Klipschorns sound, just want to get them where I can hear the detail and resolution without having to turn them up at a higher volume to hear it without being too loud, gets brighter at that volume for sure. I guess it could come down to trying new crossovers to see if this helps, just want to make sure it's the right choice so I don't change them and find they are still doing the same thing? Thanks for all this great information so far!! Very helpful!

[Catbo]

I've been working on the Klipschorn's for a few days and have been experimenting and now realizing some of the differences in the horns and crossovers. I also have the sound.... sounding much better from a few changes. The room had some sort of reflection going back into the listening position. I realized this when the more I moved back farther away the worse it got on my ears. I moved furniture around, did some curtains and absorbing materials. It made a nice change and the sound is more smooth and better, I then also changed to a higher current amp with not so forwarding soundstage and that helped and I also gained back some of the low-level clarity I could hear I was missing. Maybe the AK-4 crossovers need more current to bring out the low-level clarity?? I'm happy I'm hearing it now. I opened the bass bins and the crossovers are large and heavy! I found the left side had the woofer wire tightly resting up against the woofer back paper cone, now this explains why I thought each sounded slightly different! Why did it take me this long to figure it out? Both speakers balance well together from what I'm used to hearing before, now that the wire isn't resting on the woofer paper anymore.

The Klipschorn's have a certain big airy smoothness to them I like and sound very good. I don't think I will modify them after these changes. I would like to try and keep it all stock if I can make myself! I like the sound and I already have the Super "C" Walls for a little different sound so I was thinking I should just leave the Klipschorn's alone and enjoy their sound instead of trying to change them into the Super "C" Walls sound because I already have that (as my other half strongly pointed out to me[:$]) and the Klipschorn's have a certain unique sound that belongs only to the Klipschorn's that I probably shouldn't tamper with! That's how I'm trying to justify it and I don't know enough like others here that know all the techical know-how, I also don't want to do anything that might devalue the Klipschorn's resale value. Also others mentioned to me that the AK-4 crossovers were done for the newer Klipschorn's to sound better than the past versions and make them smoother sounding. I just wanted to follow up that I now have the Klipschorn's sounding great and thank every one for your help! [Y]

[jbsl]

I have 2004 La Scalas and it took me awhile to find the right combo of speaker risers, equipment, and room treatments to get the best sound out of them.

I could try some of the tweaks but I finally have the sound where I really like it and just don't want to mess with the upgrading. Also the manufacturing plant I work at is closing down in Dec so have to put all my money aside and start looking for a new job. Hopefully won't have to sell anything!

Your a lucky devil[6] cause you have KHorns and Super Cs to enjoy!