Another Musician Laments the CD

[oldbuckster]

Hearing is a funny thing and I will NEVER challenge what another hears. That way lieth insanity.

...... AMEN ......

[Mallette]

>CD players do not have any video circuitry that adds noise to any audio product.

What would this have to do with audio? Yes, I am aware of induced noise and RF, etc. However, I don't care if I don't hear it. Some of the OPPO's (980H is one, I think) have ways to switch out the video circuits. Mine does not, but I've never heard anything out of it except perfect reproduction. Noise I cannot hear is of no interest to me.

I rarely use the OPPO for listening, except brand new stuff or things people bring. I immediately rip everything to HDD and playback using Card Deluxe. It also provides, for my ears, totally accurate recovery and reproduction.

Since you are relatively new, you may not know what I mean by that. Since I do any listening tests with recordings I have made on location, my needs are met when a piece of equipment gives me back what I heard on location, nothing more, nothing less. If that is met, I do not care about measurements or popularity polls.

[Hifi jim]

Again, there is no way to argue what is or isn't heard by a person on their particular system. You stated, "There is no scientific reason why a player capable of playing DVD's should sound better or worse than a given CD player on audio". That is incorrect and I thought I had answered why, but perhaps you missed the point. It is noise that is added by having video circuits on board. Not noise that can be heard necessarily as noise, but nonetheless has an affect on the sound. However minor, however minute added circuits are simply added noise. What and how the engineers cope with this will also affect the sound as well. When comparing the Meridian 568.2 vs. the Meridian 588, both using a DVD-ROM drive there were differences that favored the 588. Of course the engineers of the 588 didn't have to incorporate video circuitry and DVD-A playback when designing the CD player. Digital circuits are a very finicky bunch and prefer solidarity as opposed to the "party in a box" that universal players are cramming. Think about 2 box CD players, and seperate power supplies that the high end often incorporate. Naim won't even include a digital out because they feel it adds noise. Other companies refuse to add digital inputs on CD players (unlike Wadia and Quad) because, again it is another obstacle and ultimately, more noise. Again this is not to dispute the Oppo, or its performance in your, or anybodys system but rather an explanation on the reason your quote was misinformed.

[Audio Flynn]

My low cost three box system is pretty good at getting the DAC away from a compromised power supply in the transport. Upsampling is OK but I do turn it off sometimes.

Sony ES 333 SACD players i have heard were very well implmented; but they have no video circuits. I have not heard an Oppo but will buy a used one sometime just so I can clearly coment on where the instruments claerly get jittery. I can infer an Oppo will struggle with cymbals, my best jitter indicator.

CDs worst enemy is apathetic recording and mastering. A visitor to my room at AK fest turned me on to Holly Cole. Very solid CD performance even on CDs over 10 years old.

[Hifi jim]

Hi Audio Flynn, I agree that upsampling is sometimes beneficial, sometimes not, I tend to favor players that don't have it. The Sony CD/SACD player, that I tried was very good. But turning to their universal DVP-NS999ES was a disappointment. Most companies have a hard time making DVD and SACD work well in the same unit as they employ completely different laser assemblies, if the SACD is to be kept in DSD form like the Sony's do. The mastering and engineering make or break a great many CD's, agreed.

[Mallette]

Jim, I'd still stand by that statement about DVD players.

However, it is obvious you have a very highly trained ear when it comes to detecting nuances in equipment that interest you. I am primarily a music oriented person. I am far more interested in source quality than anything else. I prefer first class recordings played on a car CD to most things played on the finest, purest components.

It's just another manifestation of the madness, which we all have some variant or the other of.

Dave

[Hifi jim]

I couldn't agree more Dave. As I've recently written about my newly rediscovered kg4's, it is all about the music, agreed.

[texas42]

I still remember an audition I held at my house once where everyone commented on how nice my (then) top of the Denon CD Player (3300, I think) sounded, til I informed them it was a portable Panasonic CD player. It was only then they started hearing how little impact, lack of inner detail, etc...the portable had. I've been to other auditions as well where as long as you can 'see' the player, you thought it was perfect (one was with a NAIM player). Once it was revealed they were listening to a $100 cheap dvd player, all the tunes seem to change. A lot of this is what we 'want' to believe and convince ourselves is there. Now do I prefer higher end CD players to cheaper ones? Yup...I like the look, build quality, refinement, pedigree, etc., of the higher end stuff. But I try not to become too delusional over how much 'better' it truly is. In some cases it IS truly better so not trying to diminish what others hear (or even 'think' they hear). I have no problems with those that want to spend thousands $$ on esoteric cables if they think it improves their system. To each their own and I'm ok with it. We all travel different paths to audio enjoyment. I'm just glad our small hobby (and it is getting smaller every year) still allows us to enjoy the music.

[Mallette]

Yep'em, Tex I am pretty much in there with you. I think equipment listening is a good thing and lots of fun for those who indulge. However, the nuances involved I characterize largely as being similar to moving around the room, opening curtains, and such. It rarely significantly impacts the accuracy of the reproduction, but the presentation to the brain.

I think equipment either sounds accurate to me or it does not, regardless of its price or origin. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am hyper sensitive to source quality. I can hear a mixer, regardless of how good it is, almost immediately. I can hear transcoded digital from the next room.

I suppose it does not make much sense to certain mindsets in audiophilia, but the fact remains I prefer high quality source material over high quality equipment every time.

After all, GIGO.

Dave

[thebes]

What's this Forum coming to! Probably one of the more civilized round of commentaries we've had here.

Thanks Jim for your detailed comments on cd versus dvd. Your reasoning makes perfect sense to me. I've had a number of cd and dvd players here over the last few years and once you spent some time with them differences become readily apparent. I think the latter comment is important because I believe that players, much more than vinyl rigs, sound disturbingly similar at first blush. I also believe that every step in the chain, good positioning, rooms, good recordings and good gear all add up to the desired end result of Audio Nirvosa. Am I there yet, certainly not.

Now Dave makes some trenchant points also. Granted he does bow down towards Oppo corporate headquarters 5 times a day, but certainly proper attention to the source will carry one along way down the path of this particular quest.

However, Dave, remember that simply because the mixing or recording quality is bad doesn't necessarily equate with bad music. I've got an old Smoky Robinson lp here that has more pops and crackles than a short order cooks griddle, ah but what music it makes.

[Mallette]

>I've got an old Smoky Robinson lp here that has more pops and crackles
than a short order cooks griddle, ah but what music it makes.

Sure Marty, but none of those came from the original recording quality. Sheesh, if ticks and pops canceled a recording, I'd have a LOT of stuff I'd have to get rid of.

My position is that bad recordings (regardless of the quality of the music or performance) do not sound any better on great equipment, and good recordings (of great music) sound good on almost anything. Of course, they sound better on a fine system.

As to OPPO, guess it did sound like I am a partisan. Point made. However, as I mentioned, I really don't use it that much as I prefer the convenience and quality of HDD ripped stuff.

I DO have a great respect for the progress they are making toward a true universal player, and I am not willing to conceed that the mere presence of video circuitry is going to have any impact on the audio quaility as the potential for degradation does not mean it is either inevitable or audible.

On the other hand, as I always say, I may be deaf. I set my mikes visually...[:$]

Dave

[Audio Flynn]

What's this Forum coming to! Probably one of the more civilized round of commentaries we've had here.

Thanks Jim for your detailed comments on cd versus dvd. Your reasoning makes perfect sense to me. I've had a number of cd and dvd players here over the last few years and once you spent some time with them differences become readily apparent. I think the latter comment is important because I believe that players, much more than vinyl rigs, sound disturbingly similar at first blush. I also believe that every step in the chain, good positioning, rooms, good recordings and good gear all add up to the desired end result of Audio Nirvosa. Am I there yet, certainly not.

Now Dave makes some trenchant points also. Granted he does bow down towards Oppo corporate headquarters 5 times a day, but certainly proper attention to the source will carry one along way down the path of this particular quest.

However, Dave, remember that simply because the mixing or recording quality is bad doesn't necessarily equate with bad music. I've got an old Smoky Robinson lp here that has more pops and crackles than a short order cooks griddle, ah but what music it makes.

Great comment!

My corrallary would be the conundrum of one of my favorite old rocker of the 70s and early 80s; Carlos Santana. He maybe made some great music over the past 15 years but the music was turned into something dispassionate and unlistenable. I would take the "pops" of a Moonflower lp anyday.

[HatTrick66]

I would argue good equipment makes bad recordings sound worse. The horns we all know and love so well seem to reveal CD's that are mixed too hot for MP3 playback. However, play the same source material in the car, or on some other lesser piece of equipment and it's not as bad.

I was recently given a turntable by a friend and am beginning to explore vinyl for really the first time. To use an overused term, the vinyl seems to warm up the sound.

Can tubes be far behind?