RF-7s. Taming sibilance.

[MrWhite]

3 or 4 years ago purchased a set of RF-7s and soon after an RSW-15 for my first set of "real" speakers. They are currently pulling double duty as my primary "2-channel" music setup, as well as my home theater / TV speakers.

The rest of my components are:

Rotel RB-1080 bi-wired to RF-7s. Monster XP speaker cable.

Integra DTC-9.8 pre/pro with balanced connections to the to Rotel. I am unsure of the brand of the balanced IC's.

Oppo DV-980h, Xbox 360, and DirecTV satellite for sources, all connected via HDMI.

I love my RF-7s but I have a problem with sibilance grating on my ears that I notice on many sources. I have tried letting the Audyssey AutoEQ function on my pre/pro attempt to remedy the issue. It did seem to balance out the percieved frequency response and limit the sibilance, but I found it removed much of the realism and, for lack of a better term, organic feel to the sound. Imaging also felt less focused, but was liveable. After two weeks or so of listening, I found I enjoyed the non-Audyssey tweaked sound but I am still on the hunt to tame the sibilance.

I have read much about the benefits of room treatments but unfortunately, not much can change in the room the RF-7s are in as it is my only "living room" in the house. The hardwood-floored room is approx 14' x 10' and I sit approx 2 feet from the rear wall on a giant couch. The fabric couch wraps around the room and can seat 6 easily. I mention the couch as it is rather large relative to the room and it, combined with a synthetic leather ottoman, covers at least 50% of the exposed floorspace. The RF-7s are located on the other end of the room, slightly towed in, and sit about 1.5 feet from the forward wall. One is about 2 feet from a side wall. The other is about 4 feet from the other side wall. A closet door on the forward wall is the reason for the off-center orientation.

Can anyone offer me any suggestions, tip, or tricks I can try to help tame the sibilance? I have read some about the crossover upgrade option for the RF-7s but am unsure how to proceed with having it done and if it will be effective for this particular issue.

[leok]

What I think you are describing is the exaggeration and general trashing of sibilances ("s" sounds) that is the result of various sources of distortion, most of which are probably not your RF-7s. I have RF-7s and know how revealing they can be of system distortion. I also know how delightful they can sound if you can eliminate the sources of distortion. Some sources of distortion: Many amplifiers, especially solid state, have very low distortion, as a percent of the signal, at high power but very high distortion at low power. Even listenting at very high levels, sibilances are very low power sounds, but also very complex (a kind of tuned white noise). Guess what distortion of noise creates? More noise, and not the right noise. So sibilances are the canary in the coal mine for low power distortion. Klipsch speakers are especially vulnerable to low power distortion because they are so sensitive and use so little amplifier power. Another distortion source is radio frequencies getting into the audio system through the power lines and mixing with (actually modulating) the audio. Guess what modulated noise creates? Another possibility is clock jitter in digital to analog conversion, another source of signal modulation. Another possibility is dielectric absorbtion in inexpensive crossover caps (which is one reason many Klipsch speaker owners, including me, upgrade the caps in the crossovers of their speakers). However, If you clean up the amp, the digital source, and the power, the crossover cap contribution may not be significant enough to bother with.

The amp (and preamp) is a tough problem. Personally, I don't think just going to tubes is the answer. I think the feedback in many tube designs has its own characteristic noise at low amplitudes (which is why my tube amps are both no feedback designs). You might try an inexpensive PWM "digital" amp to see if there is some improvement in the sibilance reproduction. PWM tends to not trash sibilance and is a good way to determine if the amp is a significant part of the problem. A good power line filter (RF filter, not spike protection). Spike protection is fine, but it won't help with RF modulation. Belkin has a few good line filters for around $100.

I have an old Philips 963SA (with power supply mod to reduce noise) and another system using an old Sonic Frontiers "TransDac." With various mods they have become very well behaved. I don't know anything about the Oppo DV-980h or the other sources you mention.

Although I am happy with my stock Crown D-45 on the Chorus-IIs, I do prefer the SET and even the small PWM with the RF-7s.

Good luck,

Leo

[Audio Flynn]

Leok is putting you in the right direction.

Crossover upgrade and power filtering is a low cost way to start. It can be a bit of a long path to find the music...

[jacksonbart]

Where you apart of the taking of Pelham 123, but missed the train?

[MrWhite]

leok,

Thanks for the response. I have noticed that when
listening to CD's there is far less to no issues with the sibilance. I
would like to hear what others think but after more varied listening it
may just be poorly or brightly produced/mastered sources that are my
issue or that exacerbate the symptoms.

Correct me if I am
wrong, but aren't most Dolby Digital encodings intentionally mixed
brighter as they are expected to be reproduced with all or at least the
speaker(s) playing the dialog placed behind the display screen? I would
also expect the soundtracks for television shows to be mixed to
translate well to TV speakers or, at a minimum, mixed bright with the
dialog pushed up. I believe the standard remedy to such issues is to
run the pre/pro/reciever in THX or some other similar mode that rolls
of the high end gradually. My older integrated Denon receiver would
allow me to use THX mode with my "2.1" speakers but for some reason my
new Integra pre/pro will not.... calling Integra on Monday to see if it
is possible.

I don't have a PWM or digital amp to try out but I will assume, for now, that my Rotel is not the cause of the issue. A professional reviewer had favorable results pairing my exact amp with B&W's 802d, another speaker that is very revealing, efficient, and benefits from high powered, high current amplification. Members of this forum seem to have good results pairing their RF-7s with the amp I have, as well.

I will look into Belkin offerings but can you (leok) or anyone else
give me a recommendation on which model or other brands and models I
should check out? For clarification, it is possible that RF
interference in the power could be causing these issues with no other
noticed symptoms?

Could poor speaker wire connections or the wire I am using cause my issues as well?

[rsp1068]

The RB-1080 amp you have is a peach paired with the 7's.

I ran it, then eventually the RB-1090 (one of those had to have it's for the sake of), and went back to the 1080 as I prefered it and it takes very good control of the speakers.

I wound up all tubed into the 7's for music, but the 1080 paired with a tubed pre makes a dandy set up. I would suspect your Denon, or further upstream is introducing the anoyance you speak of, but will confirm its not the RB-1080........

Good luck, and enjoy

[fenderbender]

Where you apart of the taking of Pelham 123, but missed the train?

OK JB, I know there is a reference here, and I vaguely remember the movie...can you help a brother out so I don't have to go hunt down an old copy of the movie(which will probably turn out to be in betamax so I'll have to buy and restore one )...and yes I have OCD.....

[leok]

MrWhite,

What I am refering to is not a matter of frequency response (as in brighter mix). I am refering to distortion which is a different matter. Distortion generally takes the frequencies that you should be hearing, creates various nonlinear mathematic "cross products" which are not the frequencies you should be hearing, and adds them to the signal that you finally hear. Since the "s" sound is a type of filtered noise, when the distortion adds additional crossproducts of that noise (also a type of filtered noise), it sounds like it might be a louder version of the original caused by equalization enhancement. But it contains frequencies that were not in the original "s" sound, and even if an equalizer or tone control is used to reduce its volume, it will still sound grating and wrong.

I've heard plenty of Dolby Digital encodings that sound distorted. To some extent I attributed that to my HT equipment to which I pay very little attention. Maybe Dolby Digital is distorted. Possibly the distortion is added so that the sound has a familiar "electronic sound track" sound that people are familiar with. Often, with undistorted sound, people think there is something "missing" from the high end, and they claim it has "no slam." Distortion definately adds "slam."

If CDs really don't have this problem in your system then you may be dealing with a HT equipment or presentation issue about which I know nothing. But that would be a good thing because it limits the scope of your problem the the HT sources.

Wire would not cause the problem you describe. Connections in general might, but if you "wiggle" the line connectors and things don't change, they're probably fine.

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatSectionView.process?Section_Id=202495

Good luck, Leo

[MrWhite]

Leo,

I am happy to say you appear to have been dead on the money. After reading more about how interference and poor electrical power can cause what I was describing, I took a trip to my local shop and picked up a Rotel line conditioner. I figured it could be promptly returned for a refund if it did not help.

The addition of the line conditioner seems to have helped greatly with the harshness / excessive sibilance, as well as cleaned up the video to some degree as well. I owe you much thanks.

I misspoke when I said that Dolby D encodings were mixed bright as a rule. I should have said THX. Again, I am just repeating what I have heard but I believe THX mixes with a slightly trending upward high end due to the reason I mentioned in my previous post.

Does DeanG still offer the crossover mod? If he does not, how can I go about getting it done? How do most people describe how it affects the sound?

[jacksonbart]

Where you apart of the taking of Pelham 123, but missed the train?

OK JB, I know there is a reference here, and I vaguely remember the movie...can you help a brother out so I don't have to go hunt down an old copy of the movie(which will probably turn out to be in betamax so I'll have to buy and restore one )...and yes I have OCD.....

It was a very fine movie, about a hijacking of a New York subway train, Pelham 123, all of the accomplices took fakes names of colors, such as "Mr. Blue", etc to refer to themselves as to not reveal their actual names.

[MrWhite]

I stole diamonds and died in a blaze of gunfire. A little less obsecure of a reference.

Will have to check out the Pelham 123 flick. Sounds like something I might enjoy.

[JackDalton]

And I assumed you were Harvey Keitel.

[Islander]

In Reservoir Dogs, all the conspirators were given names of colours, too. Everyone wanted to be Mr. Black and no-one wanted to be Mr. Pink, but they were told to shut up and get on with the plan.

[MitsuMan]

The addition of the line conditioner seems to have helped greatly with the harshness / excessive sibilance, as well as cleaned up the video to some degree as well. I owe you much thanks.

unpossible, the SS haters won't accept that you improved your system without tubes. []

[fenderbender]

Where you apart of the taking of Pelham 123, but missed the train?

OK JB, I know there is a reference here, and I vaguely remember the movie...can you help a brother out so I don't have to go hunt down an old copy of the movie(which will probably turn out to be in betamax so I'll have to buy and restore one )...and yes I have OCD.....

It was a very fine movie, about a hijacking of a New York subway train, Pelham 123, all of the accomplices took fakes names of colors, such as "Mr. Blue", etc to refer to themselves as to not reveal their actual names.

AHH SOO! as they say in panama....

hey I just read that they are doing a remake with Denzel in the lead.......

[fenderbender]

Read up on the movie.....brought back some buried memories...I remember seeing the movie when I was very young...i grew up in the Bronx..right off Pelham Parkway and used to take that line into the city...Freaked me a little after seeing it...

[Arky]

In Reservoir Dogs

Ahh, Tarantino.

Mr. White glad you sound better & yes Dean does the upgrade.

[MD1032]

I've never heard the 7's, but IME, sibilance and harshness is most always a factor of amplification and source. If you have a good amp, in fact, it'll only make the source sound worse. My dad connected his Creative Zen Vision:M to my HK 430 through my Fortes and it sounded kinda bright and harsh and we weren't that impressed (we both disable EQ). I pulled up the same CD on my iAudio X5L player and we were floored, and my dad remarked "it sounds like a different set of speakers".

[MrWhite]

I will agree that source and amplification can be strongs contributor. But by source and amplification, I mean anything prior to the speaker terminals.

I was noticing the harshness in general on all sources but it was most noticable on "poor" sources such as the majority of broadcast television. The reference source I have been using in my quest to tame the issue has been, of all things, the soap opera "Days of our Lives".

My wife tivos "Days of our Lives" and the only DVR in the house is in the room with the RF-7s. That show, which is 99% people talking to one another, is either mixed with extreme focus on the 2-8Khz range or the signal is heavily compressed / digitized / degraded by the time it reaches my satellite box. Or, possibly both. Either way, Days is my "torture test" as its soundtrack contains heavy amounts of sibilance, either on purpose to keep your attention or as a side effect of low production values and short turnarouond time.

I did find that removing the banana plugs from both ends of the bi-wired connections helped even further with the harshness. Logic would indicate my wire resistance with the plugs in line was higher than it should be. The terminations could have been poorly executed by me, the plug's design is flawed, or the RF-7s are just that sensitive to fluctuations in wire resistance. Again, I imagine it is a combination of all three. The plugs were convenient, but good riddance.

While I was re-cutting the speaker wires, I made sure that all the lengths were exacty the same. Come to find out some were off 5 or more inches from the others. This was something I should have done originally. I don't think it was contributing to the harshness but it is good practice none the less.

*******************************************

Audio Flyn stated in his post in this thread, "It can be a bit of a long path to find the music". I think I have finally found it after my recent component upgrades and these final "fixes" to my system. Music finally sounds correct. The system was listenable enough before but now I would consider it truly hi-fi. As a hybrid 2-channel music and 2.1 home theater setup, it is working very well.

This thread should attest to the RF-7's sensitivity to both good and bad influences in the signal chain. Another way to say this would be that the RF-7s are extremely revealing. If you have any issues in your setup they will quickly let you know. But feed them a proper signal and you will be rewarded handsomely.

I imagine this is why the RF-7s get such slack from those who have decided they are not good loudspeakers. The common complaints of them being too harsh, having a skewed frequency response with a lack of fullness, and being too in your face are what they give you when they are not properly set up.

The fact that they are relatively cheap most likely adds to their being used or auditioned in a less than adequate install or with an inadequate team of components behind them. I know I was guilty of exactly that when I first acquired them. I spent years blaming the room for my system's "quirks" - the hardwood floors for the harshness - the room's standing nodes for lack of bass - etc etc.

This brings me to my one big complaint about Klipsch - a serious lack of documentation included with purchase. Their "manuals" are 1-2 pages and include very, very little information. This is especially alarming due to how easy it is for the majority of their buyers (non enthusiasts) when setting up their system to omit something the RF-7s require, such as proper amplification, or introduce something that audibly mars their performance. I can only imagine how many people have purchased them and either promptly returned them for their "poor sound" or kept them and are just ignorant of their rather lofty capabilities and how easy it is to reach them once you are equipped with the knowledge of what the RF-7s need.

Sorry if all of this has been said before. Hopefully someone down the line will read this thread and not have such a long journey in getting their RF-7s sounding great.