RFinco

---------------- RFinco! I don't think I could've said it better myself. ---Thank you kindly! I have a good 30 to 45 minute commute to work each way every morning, so I wanted something decent to make the drive that much more enjoyable. --exactly--you are in your car a min. of 1 1/2 hours a day why not enjoy it! add that up over a month or a year and then think about that time NOT in a car--it would be quickly remedied, I'm sure..yet everyone 'forgets' about all that time in the automobile... Once I heard that, I was completely blown away at just how good it sounded. I knew I had to have that in my car! ---night and day from the factory to the after market parts...the diff...is staggering. (which is better, NAK or Alpine - well probably simply a matter of taste) and amplification - maybe the JL Audio amp is better than the AudioTek you have - in the end our systems are very comparable - yours proably just a tad better). I would agree--its splitting hairs at a point. that JL amp is a nice amp! the autotek puts out more to the sub channel which is one of the reasons I like it... The Nak decks sound really good, and they are fairly "simple", which is what I wanted. I still think, at least in my experience, my Reference 7 setup is much better in sound quality than my car system. ----fair enough--I'm not out to burst anyones balloon here. I'm glad you can say that about your gear. I also think the listening enviorment is so radically different that i can be hard to compare directly--so, I believe that I may have overstated the case a bit--i was merely trying to say that car audio has "audiophiles" as well, and its within many people's reach to get dramatic sound from their car. I have a set of the ProMedias on one of my computers, and yes they sound good, but no way in hell comparable to my car setup. ----I have the 4.1 promedias...in fact I bought them the first DAY! they were selling them to the public, and you could only get them on-line direct from Klipsch. They're great but my car beats them in every possible capacity. Still, I very much agree with everyting you said there! A good audiophile grade car system is going to be pricy, but it will sound much much better than your typical "boom" system, and will rival, if not surpass, many a home audio setup as well. ---Yep. Still, it cracks me up because one of my neighbers has one of those "all boom, but no real substance" setups. I've never heard bass that sounded so overdriven, distorted, and one-notey. ---those systems usually are TERRIBLE! they spend a TON of money on subs and amps and all they do is sound like a deep fart...the best is when they haven't sound proofed their car well or their placement is all wrong and the body panels on the car rattle! I've gotten so spoiled with my home and car setups that I now going to drop something into my little 1990 Mazda B2200 pickup. -----Its addictive--the worst is when you are in a friends car, and you can't help but compare sound in your head...you don't want to tell them, but it actually sounds "bad" to you..... I sure would love to hear your car setup. Hell, I would not mind even hearing your Def Tech home system. ---"even" my def tech...HEHEHE...thats ok though..I'd love to show them to you--alas it would be quite a trip with 280lbs of speakers tied to my back. Theres a HUGE thread about me defending my speakers...look up Def Tech and blamo...there it is. I've been listening to def tech's and Klipsch quite a bit lately and it seems to come down to one fine, but important point. Klipsh are very directive, i.e. they have that "pinpoint" quality to their sound. Def Techs, on the other hand do not have this--they are very difused--they'll fill a room with great sound but there is no "sweet spot" per se. I don't think one actually "sounds" better, I think its a matter of what the listener prefers. I will say this: my car sounds better for music than my home system--but mainly cause I like "near field listening" more than most I guess. good luck on all your car audio endevors, and if you need new stuff, you'll get great prices from those two links I provided--both are awsome companies to work with. PS!! go buy an OPTIMA yellow top battery!! your system will EXCEL!! right now, it doesn't get enough power.... ---------------- [/blockquote>

---------------- On 4/8/2004 4:21:09 PM caz1604 wrote: I am going to get either a Acura TSX or a Lexus IS 300. I am leaning towards the TSX though. I currently have my entire trunk sealed with Dynamatt Dampening Putty. Works great and I get the full potential of my system. I have a couple offers that are reasonable and worth considering. We will see how it goes. This will be my replacement system in the future: 3 JL Audio 13" W7's 3 JL Audio 1000/1 JL Audio 450/4 Aluma Pro 15 Fared Cap ---------------- you got a ton of bass here but where's mids and highs? Utopia 2 and 3 ways are awsome...with that kind of gear you might want to look at the Flagship Nakamichi deck--it has no internal amplification and its specs are audiophile quality.... Lexus IS300 is a waste of money. Acura is a much nicer car. I tested them both--the lexus is like a shineier toyota. for the money get a slightly used Audi S4--way nicer than both of these honestly...new cars kill you with first year depreciation.. But the Acura are very nice...the TLs and such are very nice. I was thinking about Acuras, S4s, IS300s, and I ended up getting something I never would have thought of: I tested a Saab Viggen and I loved it. thats what I'm driving now. Good luck with your Sale!!

Caz: why sell when you're just going to buy it all again?? first, if you soundproof your new wheels you won't need 3 subs, just position 1 or 2 faceing inside the trunk instead of bouncing off the roof or glass--sealing off the car gets you fantastic results without adding more equipment. you should just save a bit longer and keep the gear you've got--you're not going to get enough from selling the gear to justify the sale in your heart! well...anyway, I wish you luck with whatever you decide. what new car are you looking at? just curious....

---------------- On 4/8/2004 9:59:59 AM caz1604 wrote: I am currently selling my system. Email me if your interested. ashleighdad@hotmail.com 3 10" JL Auido W6v2's in custom made fiber glass box. JL Audio 500/1 JL Audio 300/4 Aluma Pro 5 Fared Capacitor Trust me, your explorer would rock with set-up. ---------------- THIS IS SOME NICE GEAR! jesus...."3" W6v2s?????? good lord...that has to be out of control... nice amps too... this is a great buy for someone... 007-- I spend at least 2 hours a day in my car--I have over 150 CDs in there, I listen to music in my car WAAAAY more than I do at home. We spend so much time in our cars, why not make it as enjoyable as possible? by the way--if you go with the system I described above it will beat the Refrence home system any day of the week. you said it--a super small enclosure--there isn't much air to push and control--the sound on a audiophile car system is just incredible. most people spend all their money on subs for their car and they get a big bass cannon which sounds like crap, and because of this people don't take car audio seriously--I'm not talking about SPL competions here, I'm talking about good sound. just because you've never heard a good system, or what you have heard was nothing more than a rockford amp connected to 3 12" crappy subs with NO CONCERN for good sounding tweets, or mids--don't dismiss the possibilities. my dad said similar things, i.e. car audio--blah blah blah..--then, he got in my car and listened. he's not an audiophile by any means, but after listening to some of his CDs while driving around, his response was: Jesus your stereo sounds good! but..like anything, quality often will cost you. think about what you're doing--just like home audio gear you need to respect every piece in the chain--from power to processor(head unit)to amp to speakers to wireing. if you want good sound in your home, you need to do the same thing. So why is car audio any different than home audio? The equipment I describe is some very nice stuff--you don't have to go that expensive--you want a noticeable difference? change out your factory deck, they all suck--I don't care if you have the lexus Mark levingson factory set--factory set ups are WEAK (yes, I've heard almost all the "high end" factory setups--they don't compare). go get a 200.00 pioneer deck, and some infinity Kappa 63.5 components--price--about 500 bucks total for the speaks and deck. the difference is amazing. for 500 bucks you changed your processor, amplifier, and speakers. you went from a factory amp of about 15 watts maybe, to a 40 to 50 watt per channel deck. get a external multi channel amp and that climbs to 75 to 100 watts per channel. now you move up to a NAK deck for 320.00 with specs that rival home systems, use it as a processor(the 1500 dollar nak deck doesn't even have an amp--it is a true stand alone processor) get a good multichannel amp (you don't need monoblocks unless you want to drive huge subs)and get a nice little 10" JL w6v2 in their prowedge prebuilt enclosure. its black and nice looking and has fuzzy carpeted ends, not to mention that it will best most home subs easily. the good thing about car audio is that unlike home audio at a point the gear tops out in price. then it becomes a question of quantity-not quality. I understand 007 that you may not like car audio, but I assure you its not bull****, and the difference between a good car audio set up and the factory set up is staggering.

best head unit NAKAMICHI. all three of their 1 cd, non changer models have specs that will trump any other deck out there. they aren't flashy but they don't need to be. Clarion PRO AUDIO, ECLIPSE, ALPINE, are all very nice too. the three best speakers out there for car audio- COMPONENT SETS!! have the best sound of the speaker types out there, and the best components are as follows: MB quart (flagship model QSD 216--gorgeous highs!) FOCAL (utopias 165 W3 or 180s ---pricey but incredible midrange..wow) DYNAUDIO (240 Esotar or SYSTEM 360---very nice, but very pricy....) amps: macintosh or xtant or zapco if you want "cheaper" but yet high quality try AUTOTEK or HIPHONICS I actually run an autotek amp and it just beats up on Alpine and audiobahn...its a great amp for low prices... subwoofers JL AUDIO W6v2, or W7v2 (i don't care what others will say--they are the best.) They are clean and sound incredible and yet, if you want--you can crank them and blow your windows out--they produce better tighter bass than most home subs easily..) if you go with these parts, soundproof your car nicely (Raamatt is great, and much cheaper than Dynamatt) you will have a system that bests most home systems in every way. A great car setup doesn't have to be a miami bass machine, it can also sound just..incredible. price for all this wonder: probably around 3 grand...give or take, depending on where you shop. The speakers will set you back, NON RETAIL about a 1000.00, the sub probably another 700.00 or so--you only need 1 10" or 12" W6v2--the thing will make your eyes water if you want it to. the sub is hard to find online in the PROWEDGE JL enclosure-which looks great, and fits the sub very well. the head unit: you can get the starting NAK deck for 329.00, add 100.00 for the next model which does MP3s. then, the flagship deck--you can get online for around 1500.00. The amp: well...you can break the bank here if you want to...if you want monoblocks,or multichannel or what...starting price for a good Autotek amp--350.00 price for zapco or xtant or macintosh---well into the thousands. sound deadning--about 200.00 to have enough to do a good job. wireing: you can spend all sorts here--just make sure the gauge is big enough. and the NEGLECTED PART!!!! get a OPTIMA dry cell battery--180.00 for your car (YELLOW TOP ONE). it will give everything all the power it needs to work well. people neglect this when they build their car stereo....This battery also has a ton of cranking amps so winter or not, your car will start regardless of how many audio components you have inside.. So, for around 3k you can put together a car system that will best your home system any day of the week. I've bought quite a bit from www.caraudioexpert.com if you don't see it, call them--they can get ANYTHING!! another good one is www.infinitecaraudio.com oh, and that sound deadening stuff--www.raamaudio.com the owner is way cool. now that I've provided all of this--let the FLAMES!! begin!!! (you don't know what you're talking about, JL audio is...blah blah blah, Dynaudio is blah blah blah...)

---------------- On 4/2/2004 9:00:53 PM tankhokie wrote: oh man, are klipsch's reference line "digital" speakers???!!!! man, i don't want my klipsch's anymore...these speakers are sweeeet! what was i thinking...buying non-digital speakers... --forum sucker ---------------- the only digital speakers that I know of are the MERRIDIAN's...they are quite pricey though..clever, but I question if they are worth it. anyone on here heard the all-digital setup by merridian?

The writing of this show has soooo much to do with who they have on staff obviously.. the episodes that many people remember fondly as being the most esoteric and unique and funny as hell are often the ones written by some very unique funny people--i.e. the few seasons that Conan O'Brian wrote were very funny i.e. "Silent Bob cape fear parody" and soo much more. the writers that they have now really aren't very good, because most of the "harvard" writers (yes...many of the writers on the show are harvard grads, or at least they use to be...) are really quite bad---read the new nat. lampoon and you will see all the future sit-com writers in their pre-professional days...Most of the newest harvard staff aren't very funny unfortuneately... I think the Simpsons should die a quiet death before all the fond memories that people have of the show are bulldozed into the ground by the crap that they've been produceing as of late...

I think the Rat Shack people are for the most part knowledgeable enough to be dangerous. BB employees however often either know something VERY well, or not at all cause they don't care. Rat Shack always condescends to me like I'm the lowly uninformed customer. They also, have been wrong about everything I've ever asked them. I've gone in there for wire questions, cell phone transmission questions, and general electronic questions--they always tell me some BS that they haven't done enough research on, or have "heard about" somewhere... -I was told that cell phone antennas don't matter, and there was no external "plug in" antenna available that works. Morons. www.wilsonelectronics.com they work great. --I was told that I shouldn't use seperate RCA plugs, and should only buy them already attached to the wire. morons again --I watched a buisnessman walk in and ask about a national plan for his cell phone, because he hated extra charges. the rat shack employee then promptly told the man about the "national" plan where I've paid roaming charges in their damn parking lot with before I switched... at least at BB they don't pretend to care or know, they just point you in the direction of something...

I have the PIO ELITE 49tx (was the flagship), and have had it since JAN 2002. Thus far, I absolutely love this unit. MinnMALE is correct, to get the same features in seperates it would be very costly, and the MACC auto calibration is quite nice, and has been argued to be quite accurate as well. in compairison to the SONY ES line and the FLAGSHIP DENON--I question if there is a compairison to be made. I opted for the 49tx over the 5803 Denon, the PIO elite is a nicer piece. much more of a mid-fi level than the others. Many on the various forums have claimed that the PIO ELITE 49tx, and ensueing models have as good of a sound as ROTEL/NAD seperates... www.docDVD.com there is a gent on there named JOSH LEHMANN. He will get you a great buy on the PIO ELITE stuff, that has the warrenty fully intact. he's a broker, and a well respected one. I got my receiver for $1300.00 less from him than had I bought it at a local shop AND I got the full warranty. Go with the ELITE over the other brands you mentioned--its a step up.

---------------- On 3/31/2004 2:35:08 AM bburkava wrote: I'm new to the forum but would like to solicit all of your advice. I am a college student and will be living in either a dorm room or a small apartment for the next several years of my life. I am looking to purchase speakers for a home theater system and am looking for advice. I want to spend around $1,000-1,500 on speaker components and am looking for suggestions. I would prefer something that would be efficient with space, but not sacrifice too much sound quality. The system will be used probably equally for DVD's and music, but I am looking for a system with at least 2 fronts, a center channel, and a sub(maybe a low end SVS or a KSW-10). I already have the Promedia 2.1 multimedia speakers on my computer, love them and would like to purchase another set of Klipsch speakers. Any suggestion as to where to spend more money to maximize quality would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time. ---------------- Assumeing you've already looked at Klipsch speakers.... Definitive Technology can give you lots of boom in a small space--their PROMEDIA 5.1 sets are pretty good ENERGY speakers --take5 set was getting good reviews.. MISSION bookshelves--I had these in college, and I think they are great speakers, not common in U.S. it seems... M&K speakers are very well regarded, and some of their sets are well priced.... Anthony Gallo at http://www.roundsound.com has some very unique and interesting designs... CANTON speakers are very nice, as are DYNAUDIO. PHASE TECHNOLOGY also has some alright 5.1 setups.... B&W also has some great "inexpensive" speakers--worth saving to build a B&W theater around... bang for the buck---Klipsch will deliver time and time again--what you get vs. what you pay is considerable. I offer these other brands so that you have several choices as a consumer--love what you get, do your homework, listen and get the best you can the first time around. building a nice theater on a budget takes time and lots of shopping around---go to www.audiogon.com or EBAY to find good prices on equipment. you can get equipment that was completely out of your price range because someone else has the upgrade bug. I built my H/T over the course of 2+ years and I saved 8000.00 from what I would have paid for it, had I walked into an audio shop to get the exact same pieces. Good luck to you--don't get suckered in by "THEATER IN A BOX"--do some research, you'll be glad you did. -advice to a "poor college kid" from a former college, always "poor" kid.

---------------- On 3/30/2004 4:21:11 PM wheelman wrote: Mark Levinson sold his OWN NAME!!! to Madrigal and then...H/K (no..not heckler & Koch--wrong forum!) took them over. ---------------- OK!!!~~ THE KLIPSCH DEALER MUST OF BEEN WRONG!!!!!! ---------------- Sorry wheel--I didn't mean the exclaimations to be hostile--it was more like "what kind of person sells their own name???" I mean, now--his name is actually copyrighted by another company? Imagine, you can't write your own name on your equipment, or something close to that...? thats terrible. Its right up there with BOB CARVER selling "carver" to Phoenix Gold for the PROFESSIONAL Line... Mark Levingson stuff hasn't been actual levingson for a while now-- Like I said, his new company RED ROSE is pretty cool--very audiophile. wheel--no hard feelings man!! sorry!!

---------------- Actually i heard Mark Levinson used to design receivers for Harman Kardon. Some Klipsch dealer told me that Harman has now killed the Mark Levinson design. As in through out the quality of them. ---------------- Mark Levinson sold his OWN NAME!!! to Madrigal and then...H/K (no..not heckler & Koch--wrong forum!) took them over. But...HK should make speakers...with built in silencers... if you want to see TRUE mark Levinson designs, his new company---RED ROSE is getting pretty outstanding reviews. OHHH mannnn...I'm sooo torn with what i want right now--I hear outstanding things about the 200.7 B & K, and supposedly there isn't anything that sounds "bad" with this amp--but---I like unique, and running professional amps in a big stack of 4 for my gear would just look damn cool, not to mention sound awsome and perform accordingly.....then theres the 1095 rotel, which according to some is a cut above the rotel standard, and the 15/2100 sherbourn is still in the running with its quasi-7 monoblock design......good grief....too many choices...I have buyer paralysis...

what about the opening music for THE SHEILD or the openers for OZ. also, for memories don't forget HILL STREET BLUES or Seasame Street

---------------- On 3/29/2004 2:18:32 PM minn_male42 wrote: .... to see how it compares to my carver professional ZR1000 digital amp (225 watts per channel @ 8 ohms)..... the rest of the line is very interesting but the pricing structure scares me.... ---------------- Minn---funny you mention the Carver ZR1000 cause there is someone useing that exact configuration with a PIO 49TX unit(my receiver right now)--they LOVE it...I can get "4" zr1000s for the same price if not less than the B&K 200.7 and for about a second I considered this option.. what are your thoughts on the ZR in compairison to some of the more "mainstream" approaches-i.e. a multi channel amp from ROTEL or B & K (bel canto are awsome...but a bit out of my price range...but those are the exact suggestions I need!!) keep in mind this is a apartment--A HUGE ONE..but still..an apartment, and I can't wire dedicated circuits and such..so 4 plugs for 4 powerful amps might be a hard thing to pull off...

---------------- On 3/26/2004 9:05:16 AM Griffinator wrote: My opinion, after yesterday's get-together (a very positive one for my local business dealings - could be an alliance of sorts to be formed between our two companies) is that the Sherbourn amps absolutely trounce the Rotels. The Rotel pres are much more user-friendly and feature-rich than the Sherbourns. ---------------- Griff-- I am leaning toward useing my 49tx as a pre/pro and going with a nicer power amp. my choices at current, but not necessarily in order... 1. B & K 200.7 or the 7270 2. Rotel 1095 AND 1080 (1 2channel, 1 multichan for H/T) 3. Sherbourn 7/2100 4. Aragon 7 channel give me your thoughts, suggestions about these items---or any that are similar in price that I may have neglected, or combinations of various channels (i.e. a 3 channel and a 5 channel by B & K for example...or whatever...) Sherbourn got added recently as I read more about them--your post above put them in my list.. ANYONE! feel free to let me know your thoughts on this--(no. I can't buy krell, or Theata, or ADA or Proceed or "HALO" parasound....out of my range.)

---------------- On 3/12/2004 5:20:35 AM wheelman wrote: ---------------- On 3/4/2004 6:49:22 PM BackBurner wrote: Now if you want to be entertained ( like the band or not ) Metallica puts on one of the best modern day stage shows " period " . ---------------- The best live show/performers I've ever seen is a great band called 16 Horsepower. they are by far and away the best live performance I've ever seen. I've worked in clubs before and have seen quite a few live shows(well into the 100s easily) I've seen metallica about 5 times now...each time they got a little more commercial, a little less musical....RUSH "presto" tour was one that stands out in my mind also...) PINK FLOYD is one of the ones that I always wanted to see...but never got a chance to. I'm sad I missed the show where Primus opened for them....first "division bell" tour I believe... seriously though---16 horsepower...wow. the intensity of these guys is just...scary. I've seen them about 4 times now and each time...someone who has never seen them before asks in wonder "are they ALWAYS like this???" when the lead singer, David-Eugene Edwards, starts to play his concertina (yes..concertina) and his eyes roll into the back of his head and he almost falls off of his stool, no pyrotechnics or drum solos in the world can match it.... they don't tour much---if you get a chance go see them. back OT: I would love to hear this cover band....see what they are like and such...thanks for the info!!

I've used EBAY to GREAT success over the past few years, and I got a good portion of my home theater setup on ebay. you have to be careful, always always always look at feedback, and always consider that there is a possibility that this is NOT THE ONLY auction site, or sale location for the seller. just as you wouldn't advertise selling something in only one place in the "real" world, think that they may have this item "up for grabs" in other places as well. if they back out--it costs them money--not you as the buyer. I understand the frustration of having an item "pulled" at the last minute, but thats how commerce works sometimes... i bought my VCR, DVD PLAYER, PANAMAX UNIT, ENTIRE SPEAKER SET AND MOST OF MY CAR AUDIO ON EBAY. its all about buyer beware....a little research and you are good to go.

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/whatamess.html read a bit and you will see that he, the writer advocates......sigh......personal pictures in your freezer will improve sound quality.... ok...this is just too much...when the spirit world/"energy" realm starts tuning my gear its time to find a new hobby....

ok, I am on a quest to understand-- I know how a woofer/tweeter and such work. but--can someone explain to me how HORN speakers produce sound?....particularly without causeing me to do massive physics and electromagnetic research to understand the explaination? I am trying to know your ways...it is not easy. Thanks in advance for all explainations and wittisisms that may ensue from this question...

---------------- On 3/23/2004 7:57:25 PM tankhokie wrote: edit: just occured to me.."catty cornered" hmmm, i use that word often but never thought about the spelling/origin. anyone? ---------------- its now become kitty-corner the origin of it is--catercorner cater doesn't mean "cat" it means "diagonally"...which comes from the latin "quattuor" meaning "four" catty corner is considered a "accepted" varient though...

I feel horribly cheated..... stupid birds... hell with it---go here www.wickedweasel.com best swimwear I've never seen...

---------------- On 3/22/2004 6:14:05 AM boomac wrote: RFinco, I appreciate your words and it would be a lously shame if the forum lost Artto and his vast knowledge. He'll be Bach! It seems to me: The old line, "leave your politics and religion at the door" has been around a long time and for good reason. We all know this and it's really quite a rational request. No one's political opinion is apt to be changed on this forum and therefore there is no valid reason to antagonize other participants. I am not without guilt myself and will be very cautious in the future. Fact is, this forum means a lot to me. I'm amazed at the level of knowledge and the sincere willingness to help others. I have personally met several members and now consider them friends. Heck, one guy sent me a phono cartridge that he wasn't using. Just sent it off to me with no strings attached. Same guy went out of his way to check out some speakers for me that happened to be in his area. Wow, what can ya say? We all have something pretty special here and we need to respect it. ---------------- Boomac, Very well said. What makes this forum more valueable to me than the others that I frequent every so often is the PASSION behind the knowledge. This passion often will lead down dark, dangerous alleys--because passion is a double edged sword--one must take the postive with the negatives to get its benifit. When you have so many knowledgeable people all with distinctive yet equally valuable opinions there will be some degree of conflict--the key is to keep this conflict positive-i.e. form NEW great ideas from 2 other ideas collideing. This is where our audio choo choo train goes off the tracks at times... Boomac--Did I meet you at JM's house for the "open house" ?? I thought I did.... I was Damonpayne's friend that he brought along.... If not, my mistake, but thank you for the words none the less!

---------------- On 3/21/2004 5:37:33 PM boomac wrote: I suggest that Klipsch ban all the baiters. It's funny "they" all seem to come from the same direction. Rfinco - if you read "no intent to bait" in colin's remarks, then you are very mistaken. He could have easily made the point with no mention of names. EASILY my friend! ---------------- I agree Boomac--baiting is not nice. I also agree that the point could have been made without names, or at the very least with names that have no IMMEDIATE relevence to our daily lives. I just found the idea that, because someone has a similar idea or technique then they must be that thing in its entirety, quite silly. I read the repeated posts about a non-existant comparison between hitler and rush and whomever and I wanted to express something. the logic that was used is specious reasoning. drawing a conclusion on non existant facts. This seems to be an ongoing issue on all internet forums-which makes it hard to communicate an idea without upseting SOMEONE in the process... There needs to be some frame of refrence in any opinion based conversation--but what does one do when every frame of refrence is potentially offending? Someone always reads into something, or believes that the post is "about them", or that "it took a shot" at them...even when names are withheld. But--I do agree with what you said--perhaps the initial starting post could have been more of a "please come back because I value your opinions" as opposed to a justification of action. I will say this as my own personal opinion: Artto seems to contribute quite a bit of knowledge to this forum, and has a element of value. Often, people that have elements of value become at times harsh as their opinion about the matter is formed on what they belive to be unflagging accuracy and research, but does that reduce the value of what he provides? I don't believe it does. However--this does not condone the original trouble starting comment. I'm merely saying surely what has been provided in the past is worth the current indescresion....

---------------- There have been other flamers in the past. There will be more in the future. Public forums attract those who want attention by shouting. It works in the short run for Joseph McCarthy, Adolph Hitler, Rush Limbaugh and Pat Robinson; but their bombast doesn’t stand up against the quiet reason of judiciously applied facts. ---------------- those who find some huge issue with this above paragraph... Don't take words so literally...... the words don't COMPARE hitler and limbaugh and robinson, they find a simliar concept. There is no compareison in there at all. the words merely pull examples of people throughout history that gained the ear of others through a similar technique. the technique in question here is being louder than others. It then goes on to say that this increase in volume and the attention that ensues from said volume increase will not "stand up" in the long run against actual facts. There is no compairison here whatsoever, and its hard to dispute that all of these people in the paragraph did in fact get to where they are or were by being louder and more dynamic than their competition. Its also hard to dispute that they have common elements such as being a dynamic speaker, groups of followers, and..they all wear pants.(some levity.....) the fact that people took this COMPLETELY out of context is somewhat rediculous. If this sort of thing gives you issue than I suggest that you never read any book or opinion based item for the remainder of your life, because often, the intrigue and the joy of the work is based on reading between the lines. I'm sure I'll get blasted for this-- please note though that nowhere in this did I personally attack anyone. I merely pointed out that there was a potential misinterpretation, that snowballed....

I use monster superFLAT in "white" on my rear and rear surrounds for 3 reasons.... 1. its FLAT--easy to run under things without drilling holes and such...goes right under rugs without any kind of buldge... 2. its very soft---easily bends, very forgiving---MUCH more bendable than your ordinary wires--goes around corners without problems.... 3. it, despite how soft and flat it is--is actually 12 g. other than these points---if you can use 12 g. home-depot wireing and you don't care about the cosmetics or don't see the wire---use 12 g home depot wireing and spend your saved money elsewhere... I'm not sure electrons are sentient beings so, I don't think the care too much about the "vehicle" that they travel in...but...I'm no EE so what do I know... PS: i got a great deal on a error cut length of this stuff--I didn't pay anywhere near the 1.50 a ft they claim it costs...I think I paid around 65 cents a ft... if you contact some install places they sometimes have some wrong cut lengths or some "dirty" cable (the stuff is white--but it gets dirty and then hard to sell...) if you're willing to lay it out and give it a quick wipe down (takes very little time) you can get a great deal....