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Drag LaScala? Man you must be pretty strong to push them up the hill for all of eternity. If I had to do that all day I guess I would pick a Bellenicer to look at, slightly less bulk. They do sound pretty darn good. Frzn Same comment on a slightly smaller scale. While I have never heard a vertical CW. They are pretty big for the bathroom sized Manhattan apartment or dorm room. O Never heard the Quartet but with a description as a smaller C II I which I had heard them to compare to a Heresy. Sounds like they would for sure best my #3 pick.

They do rock. I believe they were the first Klipsch speakers I ever heard. They started all my madness. I have owned 4 pair in the past...currently have two pair.

---------------- On 7/21/2005 10:14:54 AM Olorin wrote: Can I have a sub? ---------------- Hmmm, good question. Ok I'll bend the rules a bit. One sub and one speaker to make your pair. That pretty much says no sub, right?

Amy, I am wit-cha on the Van Halen. They just scream summer time, window down, hot nights, driving around fun!

...one pair that is. This ought to stir up a hornets nest. If you could only have one set of Klipsch speakers for life what would they be? Now the rules: You have to factor in cost when purchased new today or when they were new if out of production. You are going to be stuck with these for life. Future changes in life might not give you corners or other room problems to deal with like a small one room apartment when you life falls apart or heaven forbid a non-understanding significant other. You have to drag them around for the rest of your life. i.e. size and weight should be a consideration. Like the mythological guy who had to push the bolder up the hill for eternity. You have actually had to have listened to the speakers you nominate. Here are my top three 1. Forte II - A clear winner in my mind. For the size, price, performance they just cant be beat. 2. Chorus and Heresy - (both original versions) This is a tie that I cannot break. Heresies have the advantage of being super portable while the more bulky Chorus edges the Heresy out in sound. Dont make me pick one over the other. 3. KG4 Yes they beat out the Conwall and Khorn due to size to sound ratio not on sound alone. I wanted to cheat and put the khorns in the listbut just could not do it.

Happy anniversary and congrats. Thanks to you for hounding me with all the khorn adds till I caved in.

When I was 14-18 I worked as a caddy at a pretty high class country club. I started out riding my bike to work, would caddy 36 holes then ride back. Eventually I woked my way up to working in the club house. On Sunday morning there was a 4 hour Oldies show on the local rock station. I just loved listening to "Heat Wave". I could not wait for "Your host with the most Mr. Chuck Roast" to fire up his black on black in black 57 Chevy and start spinning the tunes. Any Detroit-ers out there remember that morning show on Sundays? Summer time, no A/C in my car or my parents house...dripping with sweat...man those were the days. NOT! Heat Wave Martha and The Vandellas Whenever I'm with him Something inside Starts to burnin' And I'm filled with desire Could it be the devil in me Or is this the way love's supposed to be Just like a heatwave Burning in my heart Can't keep from cryin' It's tearing me apart Whenever he calls my name So slow, sweet and plain I feel, yeah, yeah, well I feel that burning flame Has my blood pressure got a hold on me Or is this the way love's supposed to be Just like a heatwave Burning in my heart Can't keep from cryin' It's tearing me apart Sometimes I stare in space Tears all over my face I can't explain it, don't understand it I 'ain't never felt like this before But that doesn't mean it has me amazed I don't know what to do, my head's in a haze Just like a heatwave Burning in my heart Can't keep from cryin' It's tearing me apart Don't pass up this chance This time it's a true romance Heatwave

Thanks for the heads up. I am on it!

JB, no pix yet. I just did the absorption part of the room last weekend. I need to paint the diffusers before I put them up. I did finally get the 2nd set of Heresies on the back wall to complete the 7.1 set up over the single center Chorus for 6.1. I am really happy with the way movies sound with the new treatments. I can't wait to hear the difference with the back wall and ceiling done in diffusion. Right now the back wall is totally untreated so it is still very "live". Bass is greatly improved for music with the treatmentsbut I cant help but think my sub is the weak link for movies right now. The Bass is therejust not gut wrenching, slap you in the face like a good movie theater. It is getting really hard to take pix in the room as it is sooooooo dark! How are things in the Philly area? Keeping cool in the heat?

Check out things in the Architectural forum. Forum member Dr. Who has some good info on masonite panels. I did some reading on Auralex site http://www.auralex.com/ They have a acoustics 101 site that is decent. I just did my dedicated home theater with some Auralex products. I had to buy more then I needed because they sell them in boxes of 6 or 20 or 12 depending on what you want. I will have a LOT of extra. If you can live with Charcoal and Burgundy colors I would be willing to sell you what I have left over very reasonably. I basically had a painted room with only equipment and seats. Lots of echoes when you would clap your hands in various places around the room. Also over time my ears would get fatigued and music started to sound harsh or metallic. After reading up and learning what I could my goal was to use absorption on the side walls and diffusion on the back wall and back part of the ceiling. I also used a very narrow strip of absorption (6 inches) where the side walls meet the ceiling along all 4 walls. While I am no expert, my echoes are gone; my bass is much more pronounced...but not boomy or muddy. So far I am quite pleased with my 700-800 dollar investment in product and a few days of measuring, cutting and gluing. I have been trying to get pix to post and document my process...but like every other thing in life it takes time.

---------------- On 7/18/2005 1:36:02 PM ben. wrote: What's your address? ---------------- LOL ha ha ha ha ha ha Good one Ben!

Mark1101, Maybe I dont have the vocabulary or knowledge to accurately describe the problem in musical/technical/speaker terms. I could still here different stereo music; that is different things coming from the two speakers. What was missing was the image in my mind that the vocals were coming from between the khorns while some instruments were more left and other more right. Isnt that what everyone means by sound stage and imaging? If not other please fill me in here. What I had been experience recently was a more flat sound. Everything was everywhere. No localized, distinct instruments. However I could still hear some guitar lets say from one speaker and not the other. It just sounded like it was coming from the speaker and not a performance if that makes sense. I believe it is a result of my khorns being in a small room for the speakers that they are. I could probably do better for just 2-channel music with my Fortes IIs, Chours or a pair of my Heresies perhaps. That is, if I was concerned for a larger group of people. I really only care about one person me when doing critical listening. While my wife loves music she is not into sitting for an hour or two just listening to specific albums. If anyone else stops by I will gladly give them the best spot in the room for a while. Even with my small room, when I sit in the right spot I have not heard a better set up then my khorns. I think it is almost like a large set of headphones. I only wish I had a 20 foot wall and 10 foot ceilings then I think that sweet spot would be large enough to move around in. I still find the whole phase test on my discs interesting. My wife and I both agreed that every test we did it seemed like every set of speakers was wrong. BTW, watched a movie last night and it is still great. I think the multi channel stuff (movies and music) is very forgiving as you have 7.1 speakers all assaulting your ears from different directions. If you get the distance and delay right it just sounds good in any of the 4 seats. Stop by if you want a demo.

Problem solved! And the winner is. That would be much too easy to tell you what the problem/fix was. Firs a little background, history and timeline of changes. I thought I was pretty persuasive that the problem existed before I did the room treatments. I also thought I stated the fact that I already simplified my set up by removing the Niles switch box which in turn takes out the tube gear and turntable. My badI must not have been that clear in previous posts. Anyway here is the history of modifications to the room and equipment: 1. Built room as a combo solid state home theater and music room for Chorus/Forte 2. Found a local pair of Khorns 3. Listened to GaryMDs vinyl rig 4. Though about getting back into vinyl 5. Got a loaner TT (Thorens) that ran through my SS gear 6. Took delivery of my theater seats, finally! Waited over 10 weeks for them. This replace my 3 seat bench style couch with 4 dedicated seats. 7. Got a Music Hall TT that ran through my SS gear 8. Got a Scott 222C for running the TT through with wires on the floor and manual switching 9. Got a Niles switch box. No more wires on the floor or manual switching 10. Treated the room with broad band absorbing foam. NOTE I have diffusion products for the back wall and rear ceiling, but have not had time to install them. Steps 2 through 10 happened from about early march to the first week of July. I believe it was somewhere about numbers 5 to 7 that the problem showed up. So the moment youve all been waiting for. The prize for correctly identifying the problem goes to: Leo!! More or less, details below. It appears when I got the new seating I put the seats back a bit further (maybe 8 inches). After all, the further you are away from my front screen the better for movie viewing. Also the part of the seat you sit on is deeper so you back and in turn your ears are further back. It was not really the fact that I was off center as Leo suggested. More the fact that I had inadvertently moved back and out of the sweet spot. I also think that my new seats tend to lean you back (and away from the khorns) where my earlier couch sat you more upright. I believe in the past I leaned more forward to be engaged in the music on the couch in effect being even more toward the front of the room. I am guessing between leaning forward on the couch and sitting back in the seats along with the fact that the new seats are back further there is about an 18 inch difference between the position of my ears relative to the front wall or khorns. Amazing that it could make that much of a difference. Thanks Leo, while it was not quite the right answer about being centered it did get me to thinking about what else had changed over the past few months. Thanks for all the interest, suggestions and efforts on everyones part. I know a lot of you latched on to the treatments issuebut I did have a pro tell me I needed some treatments. He also gave me some suggestions on where to start. I also read up a bit here on the forum as well as other online resources. I dont think I have overdone the absorption end of things. I would guess about 50 sq feet of absorption is on the walls and ceiling right now. I do know I need to get the diffusion up. I already hear a big improvement in the bass in the room as well as losing some of the harshness that fatigued my ears when listening for long periods. Thanks again, Rich EDIT: One final note I did not even bother doing a phase test. Once I got it back the way I wanted it by moving the seats around a bit. I just listened to music.

Room dimensions are more or less a rectangle of 13.5 feet (khorn wall) by 16.75 feet. There is small 3X3 foot alcove in one back corner and an angled ceiling where my basement steps come down in the other back corner. Ceiling is almost, but not quite 8 feet high. Along one side wall I have a double set of French doors. I devised a removable contraption to block the light from the 30 small windows in the two doors. It is hardboard (brown pegboard stuff with no holes) with foam panels glued on to the hardboard. Each door holds one panel. Each panel is 2 feet wide by 6 feet high. These block the light and hopefully improve the reflections from the glass along that wall. On the opposite wall I have 10 1X1 foot foam panels arranged in a sort of diamond pattern. I put 3 2X2 foot panels on the ceiling in a V pattern much like you see on many rooms. I have also put a 6 border of foam along the front wall where it meets the ceiling and a good portion of the side walls where they meet the ceiling. I also put foam cubes in the two front corners. Ill try and take/post some pix of the room treatments when I can. At any rate I can remove the treatments from the doors very, very easily. Not so easy on the other wall. I am 99.33333% sure that I had lost this nice imaging in the center of the room BEFORE I put up the room treatments. I had added the Scott amp turntable combination and been running wires across the floor for several weeks when I noticed it. I assumed I had a wire wrong on the Scott and had just not gotten to it. After all I have been listening to a lot of mono Jazz albums, so when I did listen to stereo (yes I switched the mono/stereo switch on the Scott) It was just not high on my list of things to look into. Anyway this weekend I decided to get it tracked down but did not have much luck. Then I decided to get rid of the Niles and the tube gear all together to get back to just Solid State gear with CDs which is the first incarnation of my room when I got the khorns earlier this year. Still no luck.

CP1, try this http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=BOPS6&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=291858 149 a pair or 64 each here http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product_Code=BOS+PS6-BK&JRSource=google.datafeed Edit: I just took a look at the auction...I like em! All the better in an A.W. room. Edit 2: Those would look great alongside my cannibis plants! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

So what is the correct term, phase or polarity, so I can use it? The two discs I am using to test with both call it a phase test. Where you hear noise that is for some time easy to detect where it appears to be coming form then for a brief time it appears hard to determine where it is coming from. The fix if they are "out of phase" is to switch the + and - speaker wires (or black and red depending on your point of view) for the right speaker only. I have seen speaker wire with two different strand colors (copper and silver), same color of strands with + and - markings and the same color of strands but different colors (black and red) of insulation. Correct me if I am wrong but I can't believe there is any difference in the actual strands of wire used. These are just different way of helping you get the correct wire to the correct terminal of the speaker and amp. Black wires to black terminals and red wires to red terminals or +s to +s and -s to -s, right? D-man, The wires to the back of the khorns have not changed because I have not pulled them out of the corners and the wires run through the walls. It is only me an my wife...no chance they were switched in the past several weeks. I have checked and rechecked on the amp end of things when not using the switch box and on the switch box when using it. I will do it all again tonight.

Dr. W, Yes the bass is there. Why do you ask? It is actually better (real or in my mind) since I added the room treatments. As for the Niles box...that was my first suspect. I have tried taking that out of the mix and directly hooked the khorns to my solid state equipment. It is not practical in my room to hook the Scott up directly. In its simplest form a few months ago I was running just the solid state equipment and CDs to the khorns and the appearance of voices/music directly from the center was amazing. Now it is nonexistent. Things that have changed since then: 1. Added tube gear and Niles switch box 2. Room treatments so far absorption mostly on side wall and corners. No diffusion yet 3. Different Turn Table (Thorens was replaced by a Music Hall) I really cant pinpoint when the imaging was lost but I know it was there with just solid state gear and CDs in the March to May timeframe. So I have tried to recreate that set up by removing the Niles box. I can tell you I am pretty sure it is not the room treatments because looking back I believe the imaging has been missing form my listening for several weeks now. I did the room treatments a week ago. The turn table/cart is not an issue when I take the Niles box out and run SS gear only as the TT can only be run with the tube gear. It is really puzzling me. The biggest puzzle of all is the other speakers seeming to be out of phase as well. I know when I first set up the theater environment I did phase check on all speakers (L/R, L/Center and surrounds) they were all fine. Now none are. Hmmm, thinking as I type. I did just go from 6.1 to 7.1 with two more heresies replacing my single Chorus for surround backs. Is it possible that the pre/pro is matrixing the back signals and causing the appearance out of phase just for the surrounds? Sorry for the home theater stuff in 2 channel but it really is the 2 channel listening that I am most concerned with right now. The rest of the apparent phase problems came as a result of checking the left/right channel. Is it at all possible that is it my Sunfire Pre/Pro. If so how/what do I check??? Surely it cant just change on me over time.

3d, I have actually swapped one khorn +/- then both, so in essence I have tried; both "correct", one wrong one right and both wrong. Same results. What I find really interesting is that if I forget about just 2 channel (which is the problem I set out to correct) and try the phase test on all my speakers they all sound out of phase. I even used two different discs for checking phase.

Dr. W, I did think of that...so I gave up and came back the next day. Same thing. I have noticed for say a few weeks that the appearance of a center image is missing. I just had not taken the time to throw in the disc and give it a phase check. Leo, I am in the same listening position I have always been in. Part of my trouble shooting was to measure the distance and make sure the values had not chanced in my A/V Pre/Pro set up. The real issues is with listening to music in 2-channel. Makes no difference if it is CDs through the solid state gear or LPs via the TTable and Scott Tube gear. There is just no sound stage or center sounding vocals or anything else. Strange.

Is this possible or am I going crazy? Perhaps my ears are getting used to the imaging/sound stage of my speakers??? It seems to me I have lost the ability of my khorns to produce a centered image. When I first got them I would swear my center channel for HT was running I would literally check the other amp and put my ear to the center speaker to make sure there was no sound coming form it. Now that appears to be lost. Recent changes include a Niles switch box to allow me to run my Scott 222C or my Sunfire solid state equipment. I have also added some broad band acoustical treatments to the room. I have checked and rechecked the wiring and disconnected the Niles box altogether. When I use an Avia or Sound and Vision test disc I would swear allnot just my front mains are out of phase. Yes ever set R/L, Center/Left and surrounds seem to be out of phase. If I swap the + and wires they still sound the sameno center image and out of phase with phase test. What do I do next?

Thanks Allen...that was fast. Any "must have" albums that I just can't go wrong with from any or all of that crew? Side note: I must thank you so much even though I have not met you. I was hanging at GMD's house a few weeks back and he played the 1954 album from Helen Merrill that you had him pick up when he was out your way (at least I think it was you as the story goes) anyway, I totally dug her voice...I am in love! I tracked down a copy of the LP from a guy in Brazil on ebay and am anxiously waiting for it to get here. Been several weeks so far. Hopefully the deal goes through. What a killer sound. Thanks, man Edit: two more posts while I wrote Allen back...thanks guys.

I have recently been getting more and more into Jazz. So far my favorites from LPs I have picked up are Horace Silver, Art Blakey, Miles Davis, etc. I also have been leaving the Jazz channel on DirecTV for background music when I am just messing around the house. While the TV Jazz has been on I have heard a couple of songs that I really like with smoking organ music. However I was not able to run down and see the track/artist. I am not talking that Jazz-for-white-guys-and-elevators stuff or light/smooth jazz with keyboards and synthesizers but honest to goodness organ music. Something along the lines of a rocking Deep Purple track but in the Jazz vain of things. Anyone know what I am talking about? So who can point me in the right direction for an artist to look up or a LP to track down? Thanks in advance, Rich

I might be interested in the Belles if they are WO. Where are ya and how much?

Z-man, sounds like you are all up to speed on the screen sizing end of things. I missed the fact that you were using a CRT projector...my bad. Best of luck on the room and the next season. I see you are in the Chicago area. Blackhawlks? What number??? I grew up in Detroit so gotta root for the Redwings.

---------------- On 7/6/2005 12:16:53 PM NOSValves wrote: First off there integrated mono amps which are not the best for use with a seperate preamp. You want to look for power amps not integrated amps ... Craig ---------------- Oh man, thanks! I totally overlooked that. I must have not had my coffee this morning. There was an auction a few weeks back for a pair of Scott amps, not integrated, I saw this and jumped the gun.