ClaudeJ1

Absolutely, and it' can't be done well without buckets PEQ, of in the bass and treble section (passive or active), unless one uses the "collapsing verticals" the 403 as part of the EQ, while getting narower treble coverage above 6 Khz. But I do think Roy's solution is better that PWK's........namely the 402 with PEQ vs. the smaller horns. The bigger the horn, the better the horn, all other things being equal(ized).

Well, I'm headed in the same direction as JC, except my bass will go lower and cross to the mid lower than his, as does my sub. But he loves funk, so "m sure those twin double 18 subs of his take care of business just fine for music. My setup works for both music and movies. It's 7.1 or 2.1 depending on whether I put a CD or Blue Ray in the player.

I was equally impressed when I heard the 3-way, which is why I own it now, in slightly better cheaper form. Claude is yours passive or Active 3 way? Both. I use one cap on the tweeter, one cap on the mid, and the woofer section goes through a Behringer DCS2496 for a 50-320 Hz. band 4th order Linkwitz-Riley a 140 Hz,. fairly wide cut (like a LaScala) with a 65 hz boost at the low end. The rest is room EQ'd via Audyssey Multi EQ via my receiver, Sub is fed from center out on receiver at 60 Hz Xover between it and mains. Get this. The mid and tweet are fed from the L and R amps on my 7.1 Onkyo and only use about 10 Milliwatts typically. The woofer section uses a cheap 6 Watt/channel chip amp. at usually about 25 milliwatts. My TH sub usually get about 1/4 watt from a 200 W amp. I usually listen to about 80-85 db at these low power levels with about 8x this when I "crank" at 93 db very rarely.

BTW, I had a taped conversation with Gary Gillum, the co-patent holder with PWK, and former (retired) Chief Engineer at Klipsch. He described to me the development process of the orignal MWM bass unit and said it was the best sounding bass they had ever done. They basically took the core, fired it into a corner and when they threw a piece of plywood over it, VOILA, the sound just jumped out at them. they just refined it from there for easy construction. Also he said they left out the triangular throat bifurcation piece that's in the all other bass horns including the Khorn, Jubilee, Belle, and LaScala because in that particular horn it didn't measure OR sound any different without it. Since I have a single path, mine doesn't need that either.

As I look at my diagram above, I now realize it looks like an MWM with one side chopped off, rotated 90 degrees, and cutting the remaining side open to let the bass out of a bigger mouth from a shorter length.

Thanks Mike. I have modeled several variations on the core section of the MWM, and it appears the original "flare rate" was a very good choice. The EVM 15L woofer, championed by horn builder Dr. Bruce Edgar apprears to be a very good choice for best response to mate with the K402/K1133 driver combo and easily makes it to a 300-500 Hz. I used to have a huge Peavey Midbass horn, which is required since the older MWM drivers wer trying to put out lots of bass at 55 Hz. while sacrificing the top end, which was eventually filled in with an MSSM (Magnificent Sub Squawker Module) from 300-800 Hz.. In fact, the current MCM 4-T does the same thing. In a home environment, my design attempts to use the best traits of the MWM woofer by designing for 60 Hz. instead of 38, use a single, shorter path with a larger mouth and greater angle of coverage at at 300-500 Hz.. A 15" motor with a huge magnet, a lightweight cone, and a low inductance coil easily gets up into the midrange. I can sacrifice the low end because my Tapped Horn Sub takes care of that, so it's basically a 2/3 size MWM with a 1/2 octave band shift while using less floor space than my current LaScala-like bin. This new horn should allow me to get rid of the 8 db boost I have to use betwen 60-100 Hz. right now using the same woofer with a simpler, longer horn.

I was equally impressed when I heard the 3-way, which is why I own it now, in slightly better cheaper form.

Not to burst anyone's bubble about the Jube bass, but I agree with JW Cullison. He build his own full 2 PI Tractrix bass horns with the MCM 4T top end and Klipsch Twin 18" subs: "If you are using a subwoofer, why would you want a folded horn for the bass, since you only need to get to 70-80 Hz.?" It's called compromise, and I admit that I much prefer MWMs bass over the Jubillee or the Khorn. Simpler construction, and anyone who's ever heard them side by side with K402 on BOTH, goes WOW when the MWM's switch on. Eldon, doesn't it still blow your mind that you have 20-foot tapped Horns with little 8" drivers in small cabs that keep up with Twin 15" drivers in the MWM? If I ever get close to your neighborhood I'm coming over. OK?

This is the same thing I told W.C. when I was there. But I must admit, despited all that, the Martinelly and the Elliptrac 400 with the same Beyma drivers, really sounded good, so I can see why he's happy with it even if not Textbook perfect.

Thanks Dean, I liked your post also about Roy's fully engineered Jubillees. I forgot to mention that I also heard the 3-way Jubillee, which is in the Cinema catalog, with K-402/K1133 and K510/K69 as tweeters. That was actually my favorite top end of because of the full 90 degree dispersion above 5 Khz. In my case, I went with the QSC horn and the excellent B&C DE-250 1" driver for a tweeter, since a K-510/K69 in the home would be seriously expensive OVERKILL, according to Roy, even if I had to push it though a movie screen, like Rigma does for his center channel Jubilee.

Having been there and moved those suckers myself to measure and hear, while doing some engineering work with W.C., I can attest to the tremendous quality of the build. Not to mention the extreme rarity and value. Yes the back woofer chambers are stuffed full of foam (for the really curious).

I have 3 of those horns, and I agree, they are a very good horn when PEQ's right. I even like the 940 as well (I have 2 of thse), which looks more like a 510. One of the Klipsch engineers worked at EV and said those were both very "musical" horns.

With a good driver (are there really any bad ones, even if you buy used) and proper PEQ, the Elliptrac 400 is a good sounding horn. You don't need to justify anything to anyone. BUT you sill need to PEQ the bass bin also, wheter it's a Jube, Khorn, MWM, or, in my case a future home made Corner 2/3 MWMs of my own design. I have heard Rigma's setup and it is top drawer stuff, however when you kick in the "bang for the buck" in the equation, the Elliptrac 400 with a modern driver and good PEQ wins.

</p><p>It would depend on how much difference it is from what you have, and also what your sound preferences are, you never know ? well that was not a big help was it. <img src="http://community.klipsch.com/emoticons/emotion-7.gif" alt="Tongue Tied"></p><p>I have never heard the Eliptrac, I heard the 402 before it was around, it was then over for me, well actually my wife said "that's what I want" the first time she heard them. I like the looks of the Eliptrac horn but to be honest I have no reason to even think about anything else, never thought I would say that but after 40 years of changes it's true, I'm done testing, time to listen. <img src="http://community.klipsch.com/emoticons/emotion-29.gif" alt="Music"></p><p>I love the MWM's but the real treat to me is the 402 horn. I have compared it to other Klipsch horns here and it's special. </p><p>At almost 4 years of listening to this set, I am very happy every time I listen, it's my last setup. I don't have jubes but it's the closest thing to jubes and the main thing is it's the same top horn.</p><p>As usually IMO </p> As a guy who's owns K-402's with KLIPSCH made K1133 drivers, I have also heard K-402's with TADs and K-69's on K402's and K510 on top of Jubilee bass bins. I have also heard K402's with K69's on top of full MWM bins. I have heard Elliptrac and Martinelli horns on top of Golden Jubilees at W.C.'s place. I have also done some audio engineering and testing on the Jube Like Drone with different passive radiators and some expensive Eminence woofers in place of the K-31's, measured the results and did some musical listening with Roy's test CD's on ALL of the combinations. I have heard Rigma's setup with two clones and 5 factory Jubes with TADs on K402's and Klipsch drivers on K510's. It is better to talk about what they all have in common, rather than the differences. First of all, the bass bins are ALL the same. The biggest difference in the sound of the bass bin is the ROOM they are in AND what kind of PEQ is used on them (passive or active) and where you put the MICROPHONE/EARS. I could put up some of my curves for the sake of argument and education, but that would further confuse the issues. The latest Khorns also use some EQ in the bass bin. HORNS are NOT flat, which is why Flat frequency response was always ranked 4th out of 4 important things by PWK's principles. What I learned from Roy and lots of listening and measurements and finally OWNING K402's is: The BIGGER the Horn, the better the horn, if there is no other overriding small size critera. Heck I have mine sitting on a cheap LaScala/Belle Klipsch equivalent cabinet and the mirange is bigger than the woofer, for gosh sake. It's not about looks for me obsiously. I have also owned 4 Klipsch MWMs and 2 clones with about 16 different EV and JBL horns. The K-402 is arguably the best performer, but ALL of the combinations I have heard sound better than the Klisphorns I owned for over 30 years. PWK always improved the Khorn over it's life and sounds better than ever, so having a purist "original" anything doesn't make sense to a music LISTENER instead of an old speaker collector. The Jubilee bin has greater efficiency, greater output capability, and lower distortion the than the Khorn bass bin. If you buy a pair of Jubilees through a commercial dealer like W.C., with K-402's and K-69's, along with an EV active Xover to go with your twin stereo ampliifers (pick your flavor and watts are cheap these days), you will be rewarded with, not only some of the finest sound on the market, but a real BARGAIN in the world of audio. Take it from an expericed DIY cheapskate like me!!

Some men have no woman to worry about, some men have a tolerant wife, but the best scenario is having a wife who loves movies and music as much as you do and showing it all off to friends and family is routine. AFAIK, most Commercial Movie Plex subs in American Malls don't go below 25 Hz. so at 20Hz. you already are ahead of the game. My sub is a slimmer version of the 30x60" dimension, only 14" thick instead of your 21". Because it's a tapped horn, it goes to 15Hz. and shakes floors and walls in a huge commercial space. I can only imagine what an straight horn loaded 18" driver does, which is should be about 3-6 db more output, lots of gasps and OMG's from your guests. I would probably need to build a second one to get close to your output capability. Hmmmmm sounds like a new plant to me.

So the best compromise vs. a straight axis horn is one which is NOT a bifurcated "W" bin, but with a curved sound path the doesn't turn a full 180 degrees like the MWM. Theoretically, it should have less spikes in the response than the MWM. It models ruler flat from 60-300 Hz. and is 10 db down at 42 and 900 Hz.. So if you can just imagine chopping off one side of an MWM and widening the other mouth to 90 degrees, it will be, roughly 2/3 the space of an MWM, but fit neatly into a corner, except for the small white triangle you see in the upper right. The fat gray line approximates the sound path.

Haven't looked at that yet, but I'm now going to do a corner version, since my mini would stick out about 6 feet. This one uses the dead air space in the corner behind any Belle or, in my case, the FH-1 bin. It's all a compromise, now isn't it? It looks like this is the one I will build, since it's super simple. Since I have hardwood floor, I don't even have to build a full base, just a top. I only need to buy one shheet of Oak plywood for both channels since I can make the MWMs center part out of some scraps I have laying around. It looks like about 1/2 of an MWMs, now doesn't it? but it's flat to 60 Hz., and much smoother than an MWM, since it has less then 180 degree wave travel and a wider mouth for the given cutoff frequency. I will check on the impulse looked really good, but I haven't compared. I tried an unfolded Jubilee, but the MWMs modeled much better, and the EVM 15L woofer is much better and cheaper then an EVM 12L, which would work better for midbass to 1Khz anyhow. Also, the 15L needs a smaller back chamber which saves even more space by 2/3 cubic foot . Right now, I have to boost my FH-1 by quite a bit at 65-100 Hz., which is where it rolls off, like a LaScala. The FH-1 takes 10 cubic feet vs. 8 for a LaScala, but both create dead space in the corner. This horn takes 11.5 cubic feet and goes down to 60 Hz.. with nearly full use of a corner. Diagonal from 48x48x17" tall instead of 24 for the FH-1. The 17" height vs. 25" for the FH-1 will lower my stack by 8" and bring the twetter down closer to ear level.

That actually makes sence to me...lol OK, guys, now we are getting silly and getting away from the original question. Original poster, please inform us of your decision!

This was my suggestion from the very beginning. I built the corners from the Dope From Hope and actually saw and heard that at Paul Klipsch's house in 1985. The enclosed back mod is more CRITICAL because it affect the frequencies from 300-400 Hz., where the Khorn needs it the most. So even if the hydronic heat registers push the horns out of the corners slithtly, the low bass will still be there with the enclosed backs. Ideally, you would want to do both, but diminishing returns creep in. the photos in your link are way more powerful than these or my original words. Hope the guy who posted the question has done something about it already and enjoying the music.

this is basically a 3.5 foot horn vs. a 6 foot horn for the full single MWMs bin. The total area of the horn mouth is only about 10% smaller than the full MWMs, so relative to the horn length, which is the main determinant of the low frequency, it's a larger mouth and a wider dispersion angle higher up. The 6 db down point according to Hornresp is about 600 Hz.. So compared to a LaScala which is about a 2.6 foot horn with a 4 square foot mouth, this is a 3.5 foot horn with a 5.2 square foot mouth. Yes it will probably stick out of the corner by 6 feet but I don't care.

So here is the 56" Long Mini MWMs Bin. Less peaks and dips with a stright axis, but cuts off 20 hz. higher than a full size MWMs, which I don't need because the Tapped Horn Sub does a better job below 60 Hz.

I finally caved in to the info. from Dr. Bruce Edgar (and Don Keele) about how good EV guitar woofers (EVM 15 L and 12L) are for bass and midbass horn, because of their low Qts, light cones, and low coil inductance gets them to go higher than K woofers. Using HornResp (FREE), I have played with over 100 iterations, some of which I have not saved. This includes a Jubilee with a single 12" driver The winner is iteration #41 of a home made, straight axis horn to go with the EVM 15L's I have in my folded Peavey FH-1 horns, which are the closest thing to a LaScala bottom. I sold all my MWMs bins (I had 6) when I moved to a small condo, but now I'm in a huge room where I can go for bigger woofer horns to go with my K402's and K1133 drivers. I'm still a believer in doing a STRAIGHT axis horn as low as possible, so if you can imagine a MINI MWMs with no fold, that is what I will build. I will use the basic MWMs flare. This is the internal portion containing the back air chamber, throat, and initial horn flare. This will coupled to a 90 degree flare that opens to 4 feet wide (instead of the almost 6 feet for the MWMs "W" bin, which is designed for a 38 Hz. cutoff. Mine is about 3/4 of that and will be -6 db at 60 Hz., which will then mate perfectly with my tapped horn sub that is flat from 15-60 Hz..

Or maybe 2 subs and 1 amp. Yes, that would make the setup complete for less than a G.

No kidding. But the bigger horns have tighter pattern control. Agree about the driver issue.

I have owned every Klipsch, JBL, and EV have ever made. The K402 trumps them all. I even testd it with JBL and EV drivers.........some of the latest and it ouperforms the JBL 2360a (the prior winner until I got 402's).