etc6849

Not kidding, here you can see how much the chairs helped the waterfall plot: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/160560-say-no-to-leather-chairs/page-2 Interesting. And an honest admission.

They sound flat just like my multichannel amp ATI AT2007. They really do sound awesome, and my Chesky dynamic drum test track doesn't clip anymore That thing has 44dB of dynamic range, so if you play 10dB above a room's noise floor you will clip even on efficient speakers like the P-39f without a powerful amp. I think the P-39f's must have some wide impedance swings too with their three 9" woofers, so nothing wrong with having a beefy amp, but I don't run my mains in full so who knows... I've been 3 lights away (out of 12) from clipping on the XPR-1's on some very dynamic tracks already! I don't think I'll ever clip again though and I've had things pretty loud. Is it worth almost $2k for the very few tracks with that kind of dynamic range? Probably not for a normal person but I'd assume movies may have a wider dynamic range than most music if there's a gun shot or something across the front, etc... Replacing my leather chairs made more of a sound difference and was cheaper. However, I think the slew rate might be better on the XPR-1's, but I haven't measured it and can't find a value online.

Sure are. Finally decided to stop hooking up my main speakers up to my multichannel amp. The amps I wanted to try are the Parasound JC1 mono blocks or even the new ATI Signature series, but the Emotiva XPR-1's were priced really well for what you get on the used market. Slightly higher S/N ratio, but 118dB is still really really good. I think the JC1's are a tiny bit better.

Thanks. They are very nice as was the seller. They have 3.5 years left! I had to drive 200 miles to pick them up though, but still a great deal I think.

Someone just got suckered on a pair of mono blocks. May have been me the buyer, not sure! They have ample headroom though, I'm pretty sure I was clipping on 5 or so songs as the parts that previously had distortion sound better now. All other songs sound the same. Mainly it's songs with really dynamic drums or slamming of piano keys that sound better. These are actually pretty decent amps as far as noise floor and output. I put my ear into my mid-range and hear no hiss. http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMOTIVA-XPR-1-PAIR-OF-MONOS-/272068301545?

Great thread. After less than two days of running some mono block amps, I crossed my mains at 80 Hz. From what I'm hearing there has to be lower IMD as things just sound very clear with great transients too. I was seriously considering selling the mono block amps as my 7 channel amp sounded better in clarity on certain songs, but the mains were previously crossed at 60 Hz. I realized this wasn't a fair comparison today when I finally remembered what Chris had said about IMD. I guess I really did get used to hearing less IMD! I want to bi-amp in the future, but crossing at 80Hz to dual subs has additional benefits too such as improving room response.

Have you tried going to an AA meeting...? Sounds serious if you are drinking like that every night! I'm not even 40 and I don't drink like that anymore.

Updated plots with 4 of the black friday chairs and mains crossed at 40Hz. Looks like freq response dips a few more dB's, but this time the waterfall below 20Hz is much tamer I wasn't expecting furniture to tame the low end so much. In fact, I'd say the decay down to 20Hz looks very good. I'll try to remember to take some with Dirac turned off next time. You can also see how the new row of chairs in the back blocks my door some. Note the impulse response plot just after 10 ms looks a little better than before (but wouldn't cause an audible difference). EDIT: forgot to mention this is with my mains crossed at 40 Hz and I think I'm using a different mic with Dirac than I was before. Previously I was using a calibrated Dayton UMM-6 USB mic, but switched to a Mini DSP UMIK-1 USB mic since it is more sensitive and has less 1kHz noise. I also reset the XMC-1 after a firmware update. Maybe these two things somehow improved Dirac's performance, I don't know. Dirac or the new chairs are doing a much better on the low end... This is why I should have taken measurements with Dirac turned off so I'd know for sure! Finally, Dirac's bass performance is on par with Audyssey Pro SubEQ HT that I was using before with my dual subs. Some ringing between 80Hz - 90Hz is also gone. Maybe this is why it seems to punch my chest a little more than before?

Billy is a nice guy. He sold me his P-39f's and this amp sounded great on them. I'm neither single or rich and just have one amp running all 7 channels. Some B-stock monoblocks maybe coming in the future though

I had the same thing happen many years ago and just bought a bolt and screwed it in the spare hole. There is some hot glue covering the holes, so if you screw the foot in one hole and then want it titled the other way later and screw the foot in the second hole, you have a problem. Probably not the best design for a center channel that costs so much. At least the Palladium center I bought used on here isn't designed like this

Makes sense now! I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised next time you measure. I bet it sounds great.

I guess I left out a key fact somewhere: I also need the low back so the mid-range of my rear speakers can be pointed right at my head. A typical plush chair would block too much of my rear channels. My room has a lot of weird constraints on where I can put the rear channels (some driven by my wife, sloped ceilings/walls I can't easily mount to, etc...). I think I have seen plush high back chairs that contour in at the top (to allow rear channels to hit your ear) and maybe this is the type of chair you are talking about. It's a good idea. If money was no object (90% of my theater was bought second hand or refurbished), I'd try to find and order some, but it's hard to resist a black Friday deal where these were more than half off (of la-z-boy designer series not the cheaper stuff) and then they throw in free delivery. I like your thinking though and believe it should improve things. I'll try to run some tests next time I have my mic and laptop out, and I'll even do some with a pillow on the chair back too.

This is very debatable. The recording itself already has the original acoustics of the room in it. If all you want is great sound for one seat/sweet spot, no reason at all why you need diffuser panels. The stereo image I'm getting with my dead room wraps around my head and is very enveloping with only two channels going. My image has depth and is very very accurate left to right imaging. In 7.2 my surround imaging is incredible too as the room is 809-90% covered with absorbers. I agree diffusion might be of use if I wanted every seat to have good sound and my room was very big, but I'd much rather only have 1-2 seats with great sound. Drop me a line if you're ever close to Columbia, SC and hear for yourself. I hope that doesn't sound arrogant, it's not my intention. I'm not sure how many folks have been in a room like mine with a 7.2 system setup for just a single seat.

I like thick acoustic insulation you are using. My plots really improved when I added 9 7.35" panels to my ceiling. Basically, my entire ceiling is covered with these: http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-monster-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/ Your room is twice the size or more of mine, so I'm not sure how feasible this is. Maybe there is some stiffer acoustic insulation you can add over the door. It looks like you could cover most of the door with a 3-4" layer and still open it all the way, but it'd suck to cover such a pretty looking door. I'm assuming you custom made it? Are these measurements with or without EQ? What room eq system are you using? I'm going to assume these are without EQ. I think we need to see plots like I'm showing with room eq on and off. Maybe just FL, FR and sub for now. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/150606-our-venture-into-retirement-with-a-dedicated-home-theater/page-10#entry1800295 Also, when you use Audyssey or Dirac or whatever, I would only measure at the money seat. I usually do 9 points following the Dirac one seat guidelines (did this with Audyssey Pro too). Then I'll check things with REW using a single measurement. If you use REW to build your filters, you probably should do the same 9 points and average them then generate the filters. Getting a plot that's +/-5dB with 1/48 smoothing was hard with Dirac, but I think Audyssey did a better job flattening the freq response if you look at my old posts. I would never try to do this at all seats (not saying you are, but just in case). Just pick a money seat and point all mid-ranges at your ears. Calibrate only for that seat, etc... This is my philosophy and how I can usually get +/-5dB. Really though, the waterfall and impulse plots should be the first thing you look at at this point. When you make new measurements, I would post the file in the cloud somewhere and provide a link after starting just a measurement thread here or posting to the REW thread on AVS. I use the recommendations found here when making plots: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1449924-simplified-rew-setup-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-how-interpret-graphs.html I bet your room sounds great as is. Looks like you and I've both spent months and months studying this stuff to get the best possible plots out of our rooms.

Parasound makes stuff that has some very good measurements, but it is expensive compared to the ATI amp I use. The Marantz measurements may not be as big of a deal to most, just wanted you to be aware of them as there are/were many unsatisfied horn owners in the AV8801 thread due to the hiss. I definitely hear details I couldn't before with the XMC-1 such as singers taking deep breathes, etc. If you aren't into music and never switch to even more sensitive speakers, it may not be a big deal to you. An Audyssey Pro kit is worth getting if you go with the Marantz. I had a lot of fun using mine with the AV8801, and the pro kit worked very well for me, but I concentrated only on making the money seat as good as possible.

Phil is the one who bought my two pairs of LS II's! I guess he must have been successful selling them as he is selling more LS II's now... I tried to sell them for two months, and couldn't. One day Phil showed up with $4800 in cash after driving 1000 miles one way and bought both pairs. He drives all over to maybe make $1000/deal and this seems iffy as his auctions are always or best offer. He is a very nice guy and was a pleasure to deal with. He said he sells a lot of stuff overseas and has built up shipping contacts over the years so I'm sure he's making a decent living over all. I think his strategy is to figure out a good route and do 5-6 deals along the way.

Hi Duder! Haven't talked to you in a while. I agree. That was the situation with Emotiva when I bought my amp 3-4 years ago, so I went with a more expensive ATI AT2007 with a very low noise floor. Some of their products like the XPR-1 monoblock have some killer measurements (made in China, but it's discontinued now so who knows what will replace it). Of course, this is not characteristic of their XPA lines that have more noise and aren't differential (except for the XPA-1 which I think is). I think there's a Home Theater Secrets review on those too. If the OP just wants/needs enough channels for Atmos, give this place a call for the best price: http://www.classicaudioparts.com/ They sold me my AT2007 cheaper than what used ones go for with a 10 year warranty too! Was roughly half off including shipping if I remember right. ATI is an OEM for companies like Mark Levinson, Lexicon, B&K, etc... they are the real deal but will cost $500-$1000 more than a comparable Emotiva amp. ATI amps seem to have solid resale value if you get a great deal on a b-stock unit with full warranty. I'd recommend their differential amps, they sound great. Too bad about needing Atmos. I can tell you from personal experience that you will hear noise at your listening position and will be missing some dynamics if you buy a denon or marantz preamp. This probably wouldn't bother most folks though, but my room has 30 room treatments, so I hear the hiss more easily. They aren't as well made as the XMC-1 which is really made in Tennessee and designed by some very sharp folks. I'd almost say wait for the XMR-1 which will be an XMC-1 with 16 channels (will do DTS-X and Atmos too). It is supposed to come in 2016, but Emotiva has been late on releasing stuff so who knows! Search some of the older AV8801 threads, there are multiple complaints about the noise floor. I can tell you that my 7.2 system with 30 room treatments beats any Atmos setup I've heard. You'd be better off sound wise to buy a used XMC-1 and spend several grand on room treatments or lots of time, buy a UMIK mic from cross-spectrum labs, learn how to use REW, etc... I totally understand about wanting Atmos though. I may buy an XMR-1 when they come out if I can find a 40% off card! I would seriously read the Marantz review at that Secrets site. If you think they've improved things, I highly doubt it. I want to see real lab measurements before ever buying a D&M product. They lost all credibility in my book, along with all the sites recommending them. D&M will not take care of you either, once a new HDMI version comes out you have to throw out your processor, while Emotiva is going to offer an HDMI 2.0 card upgrade shortly for the XMC-1... Once you put noise like what Marantz offers through an amp with a gain of 28dB, you can bet you can hear it on our sensitive speakers if you have a quiet room:

Don't buy Marantz/Denon. The folks who recommend them either don't have a quiet enough room to hear the hiss or don't want transients that will truly startle you. They are very over priced and over hyped. Go read some of the Home Theater Secrets reviews and compare D&M engineering to Emotiva's. I was very skeptical of Emotiva as a lot of their stuff is made in China. But they have some very sharp engineers working there I learned when I picked up a used XMC-1 pre/pro at a great price. Plus the XMC-1 is made in the US. This things blows my Marantz AV8801 away, and the difference is audible to everyone who heard the system before too (and as the Secrets reviews show the difference is very measureable). It's missing some bells and whistles, but who cares. I would never spend $6k+ on a nice pre/pro, but you don't have to when a product that masseurs as good as a Anthem D2v can be had for $1300 on the used market and includes the remainder of a 5 year warranty. I'd seriously compare the lab measurements in the reviews below. I will not buy anything that hasn't been measured and reviewed in this manner again. Unfortunately, the AV8801 review came out after I bought it blindly (although for a very good price at the time). I miss Audyssey Pro in some ways, but that's the only good thing I miss. http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/emotiva-xmc-1-processor-review/ http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/anthem-statement-d2v-3d-processor-review/ http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/marantz-av8801-11-2-surround-sound-processor-ssp/

I've often debated/wondered if having high power monoblocks (either XPR-1's or two XPA-2's) would make any difference and if it is worth it. Electrically, I know not all amps measure the same. There are things like slew rates, IMD, cross-talk, and the amount of reserve power (e.g. how beefy is the power supply) that ARE different between amps and very different when compared to just using an AVR. However, I wonder if I'll hear a difference coming from a well designed differential 7 channel ATI AT2007 amp to a set up like you are talking about/using with beefier amps for my FL and FR. Clearly there is more reserve power to handle transients better when listening to stereo, and there's nothing wrong with having extra headroom even if you aren't going to use it all. For one, I'd expect THD to be lower if one doesn't run their amp near it's limit. Plus even if a speaker is efficient, if the impedance drops below 4 ohms at some frequencies, I have my doubts about an AVR or using a smaller multi-channel amp for my mains. I don't know why so many folks immediately look at sensitivity only without also looking at impedance plots for a loud speaker. And I can see value in not crossing over to my subs if my waterfall plot will look better (since towers are towards the middle of the room) with my FL and FR set to full. I guess it's the same folks who say I should just use an AVR and don't need separates, won't be able to hear a difference, not using the power I have now if my breaker doesn't trip (complete BS as the power supply has lots of capacitance and I'm concerned with transients), etc... I agree with some of this if you have room for horn loaded bass bins and huge horns, but some of us don't.

I just rerun Dirac with just the two new chairs. Looks promising; I think with two more fabric chairs I'll have a decent looking waterfall plot. The impulse and phase look a lot better than they've ever been in my odd shaped room! Audyssey Pro seemed to do a better job for me with my old preamp comparing the old leather chairs. Must be some limitations to the Emotiva Dirac Live Full aside from the 48kHz sampling. PS: Yes, the P-39f's are the only thing running in the red plots (reference stereo mode on the XMC-1). Pretty dang impressive speakers to have that kind of output at 20Hz (with room gain of course)! This is using a 7 channel amp (ATI AT2007) too! Looking at the plots, it appears I should try raising my subs up off the floor so the response is closer to the P-39f's, but I can't as I'd block the screen then. I can see the benefit Dirac Unison would provide here as having my mains and sub work at the same time (over the same low freqs) could produce some awesome waterfall plots. Can't wait so see if Emotiva provides Unison on the XMC-1. An old post from the president indicated this was in the works.

I think I'd need to see your REW file, pictures of the room, etc... ChrisA has much more experience with REW than me, he's the one who got me interested in it! I should be interested more in it as I did some of the stuff in matlab and a DSP class to get my EE degree, but I don't have as much freetime as I'd like. I've only been heavily using REW for about a year or more. One reason I ordered two more chairs is to stop some of the mid-high freq that are hitting my door (chairs will help block mid and highs from hitting parts of my door that aren't covered). Depends on your layout if rearranging chairs can block some of the door and still allow entry (and keep things symmetrical as we are talking about mid/high freq). I wouldn't recommend foam and I'm not sure which acoustic board, there's some felt-like stuff that looks promising, but I don't know if you're going for asthetics? The thicker the board the better I'd think. Nothing wrong with fitting something similar adjacent to the door to stop any reflections off the door too: http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-monster-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/ (just do the same to the other side of the room). This is what I did near my door, then used 2" foam on my door (but don't buy foam it looks nice, but isn't as effective as I learned).

If possible, I would try to keep things symmetrical. If you are only talking bass traps though, I wouldn't think it is as critical to be symmetrical. Soffit bass traps are you my permanent home will have, along with 10 foot high ceilings I hope.

This is an "on-the-stage" multi-channel recording. Although hard to find, it is very well recorded, with tracks like "Watermelon Man" scoring a 15 when using the dynamic range (DR) plug-in in foobar! Basically, 15 means there's tons of detail and dynamics. The imaging is spot on too. The stereo CD is ok too, but I love this on the stage mix. Sounds like the artists are surrounding me. My version is 6 channel 96kHz 24 bit, but there's also this stereo 88.2kHz version floating around: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/80847

Thanks Chris. I've seen Ethan's posts and agree with him and you. I think Ethan and I are on the same page as far as using lots of absorption in a room. I think at one point he says his room has over 40 panels (maybe it was on his blog I read that)! I'd love to have his high ceilings too. I see lots of BS posts saying you need reflections, but I really don't know why folks say that. If my impulse response isn't clean I can't hear the imaging as well and the depth of the image and some detail is gone too. If folks could hear my dead room, they would be very impressed compared to one with fewer panels and absorption (I think).

No unfortunately! The leather chair was placed in the same location as my post shows for the fabric chair. It did have large leather and faux leather matched arms with cup holders too. It was this thing: http://www.theaterseatstore.com/Palliser-Pacifico-manual reconfigured into a one seater.