MikeMilliken

Thanks for the Danley Link Mike........I have seen that driver partially down the line in order to smooth reponse in TL lines before, never thought about it for a horn. But a TL line is absorbtive down below a 3/8-5/8 wavelength of the line length, whereas a horn should be straight gain. So, I know that works fine when you are trying to lose backwave......And in a line it lowers the amplitude peaks( also frequency as a function of length "behind " the driver) that might not be fully damped Seems like if would introduce cancellation/peaks from phase anomolies??? To me its almost "sleight of hand" Your thoughts? I only briefly looked at it though. If the "Grail" is in there I had not spotted it yet.

Hi Mike! LOTSA stuff here! Before I get all into this, I'd like to say, you did a nice job on the article you wrote on setting up subwoofers for HT. Very nice job of taking it down to "laymens" terms. Sometimes thats difficult, when your audience is all of unknown basis for what you are trying to explain. I never thought of reversing the phase and trying to tune for minimum bass, thats pretty ingenius;) I've sent that to several non-audiophile friends who call me a lot;) Ok , meat & potatoes...Theres a couple things going on, My first BIG part of my shop system will be the big bass horn, it wont be folded but once, and then only because I'd like to use the backwave. So, my intention is to make it do a U, you with me? My building is 40 x 48 x 12, I should say at least....... I think I'll go bigger so consider that a minimum. There will be some acoustic traetment in the but not a lot, cause its main function is to store my old hot rods, tractor,and the boats when we have hurricanes. Its all reinforced concrete, so it will have a huge echo problem. I want the huge system in there for parties, so we can hear it out on the lake which is immediately behind the building.This place is very private, behind the lake is a big hill/orange grove with an elevation change of like 500' so the whole area is like a giant amphitheatre. The neighbors , of which there are few are our buddies. Our building is at the lakes edge, where the stage on a GIANT theatre would be. I plan to have a 10' x 20' termination on the low bass horn. I mid bass horn is easily do able as well it would be right in the throat/termination of the big horn, along with the mids/tweet. Any way we party out there and no one cares.....I dont want to lug around PA's I want to set this up use it when I am in the shop, turn it up when we are outside, and have parties in the building as well. It will be 2 channel....We have multiple audio systems in our home and HT already. The electronics will be a bunch of old Carver stuff I've had for years. So it'll have clean source material, but not SOTA. My turntable/MC cartridges/albums and really good electronics were wiped out in a flood, some day.... I'll replace them. I'll have a look at your Danley labs, and I plan to build something as an interim that I can use for a PA later.. I'll never do those pretty horns you sent, they look very fragile! Mine will be straight horns (cept for the low bass one) and some variation of Tractrix/Square on termination. I'll place them inside the throat of the big horn to maximize my space in the shop. The round horns would be tough to fabricate! I am ready to build the building.....the side facing the lake will be open except for piers between the roll up doors, the bass horns will be directly opposite. I know I'll have to run an EQ to compensate for the sound when we are outside and thats no problem. I have not even done the calculations on the bass horn, nor have I decided on the drivers. I have been watching others projects and trying to figure out why they are not getting the expected gain from their horns. I am perplexed as to why........ I got to get up on horn theory! Until I "catch up" on the horn design, specifically the folded type, I plan to build a dual bass bin cornscala as an interim solution in a modular format. Seperate bass bin's so they are easier to move, I plan to use the big horn you spoke of with a "yet to be determined" driver and a "yet to be determined" tweeter. So I guess its not really a Cornscala...... but a modified version with a big mid horn and some tweeter. I have some idea's rolling around.........Ever seen an ATC 3" dome midrange? They have relatively high sensitivity for a DR at 96, very flat smooth response, they take a load of power with the 3" VC, I can lower the FS with a mod/larger resonance chamber on the back. It couldn't be used as an upper bass mid, because it cant go that low, but it is smooth as silk, and if I could build the right horn for it and get the gain up to say +7db...It would be a dandy driver. What are your thoughts on that? They dont go into compression of signal until well over 125 as a DR, so they are quite impressive and again SMOOTH ! The TCI drivers I have are insane subs.... I am not above having them specifically make what I need for the low bass horns, they are near me here in Florida. Their drivers are just gorgeous, ever seen one? The Mid bass driver should be relatively easy to source..its the tweeter thats bugging me. I am very picky on tweeters. Theres very very few that I like and I have played with around 100 different ones over the years. I HATE Piezo's, the little EV's, and most every compression tweter I have ever heard (yeah, I know...) I seem to be hyper sensitive to the 4K-12K region and I can usually hear real well up past that, piezo hiss drives me batty. I can tell if they are on in a club as soon as I open the door. I am still doing sound for a local group and I detest the tweeters in the Mackies we use. This is a personal issue I have on the treble sensitivity, any "graininess" at all just ruins it for me. Personal favorite tweeters are Scan Speak Revelators, Dynaudio T 330's, Several ribbons, even cheap ones usually seem pretty nice, Some of the cheap Vifa's sound smooth to me, as well as the older peerless/ADS look alikes, and I do like the old ADS tweeter's. In order to make something listenble for me, I generally spend days on passive filters and end up with reduced output and I take the "life" out of the tweeter, so thats a hard fix............ Its been easier for me to just get a better one than to try to "voice" one I dont like. The stuff I like the sound of is so far down on sensitivity I cant use it......I have used horn loaded Dynaudio's in clubs before, I just made line arrays (D28's) and just got to put power to them, they take it just fine. But they wont get the kind of SPL I am looking for;( Man I am rambling........

Leave the back on be.........its just passive. if you got a 9 volt laying around, you can "pop" the speakers and see exactly whats going on before you open it up. Do NOT hold the 9 volt on there as you can damage the tweeters, kinda like the wires in a toaster, they are very fine. Just put the wire on the 9 volt momentarily and the speakers that are operational will click, you can also use this little trick to check phase. If the positive is to positve on the speaker and likewise for the negative, when you "pop it" the woofer will move OUT from the cabinet if it is wired correctly. If you got an open circuit, I hope your wire just came loose! Theres 2 different woofers in the Forte's It will have the numbers on the metal plate on the back of the woofer if its blown. That 9 volt on the woofer terminals is easy confirmation.

Anything is fixable.....

I am confused............Fortes have 3 driven speakers and a passive radiator on the back the Forte have a K-23-K woofer, and the Forte II's have a K-25-K, the passives on the back are also different the Forte has a 12" passive, and the forte II has a 15'er on the back... If theres only 2 speakers there.......thats no Forte

Take this however you want to......I don't do what I do for people like you. I got to wonder... why are you here? "People like me"? Not that there's any need to explain myself to you, but I'm here because I like Klipsch speakers and how close to "live" my favourite music sounds through them. I've learned a great deal from other forum members, as you also seem to be here to do. NO PAT! NOT YOU! Not people like you.........You are gracious and decent. I am grateful for "people like you", my comment was never meant for you. I completely understand why you are here. Pat, if I have offended you in any way, please accept my apology, I never meant you any harm. There are however, some others here who are just JERKS, every forum has a couple trolls lurking around and this one is no exception. There are great people, who share our passion, good friends of mine, that will not waste their time in this forum anymore, because "trolls" give them such a hard time. I have no tolerance for aholes. We as a colective group are missing out on some great minds because of intolerance here. I think thats a shame. I am quick to the gun.......and there is some people I just don't like. Life is not a popularity contest and I am def not trying to win. Ever met someone and wanted to punch them in the face before they ever said a word? Then after they opened their mouth, it was all you could do to not do them great bodily harm on the spot? I give as good as I get. I suspect I am not alone here......Music appeals to our emotions. people who tend to react to stimulus like music as most of us do (otherwise WHY are you here, if not for the love of music) are likely to be "sensitive". Now I do not mean this in the way you might be thinking. The pursuit of high fidelity. if you think about it, is the pursuit of an emotion... The music "reaches" you in same way that it does not affect most other people. The avg Joe.......Could probably care less about his stereo, rather in his car or home, yet for US it is a passion. Thats what I am talking about.

madisound.com as well as solen.com have some very nice 6.5 woofers. Most car stereo stuff is not even close to audiophile quality. Vifa in particular makes very nice speakers for cheap. As far as high sensitivity drivers in the 6.5" range... As I said before, theres a bunch of Klipsch Cerametallic 6.5's on ebay and some do have the sensitivity you are looking for at a resonable price. For IB mounting, look for drivers with a high QTS, thats not the only thing but its a good place to start.

why not a pair of MCM Grand 4's....... Do you got the plans for em?

They look like the supremo's without all the plastic trash on them. it has the same woofer with the gigantic VC's and the tweeter has the same chamber on the back... However my grills look almost industrial, none of that "johnny rocket" cheap looking crap. the cheaper set looks like junk to me....... These are very classy, very heavy duty, theres no way to damage these grills in anything approaching normal use! they are from the Renaissance line the tweeters are CR101S, the woofers are up in the attic and harder to get to.......they are a matching set and both in perfect condition. the templates and cut outs are still in the boxes. These have hexatech voice coils, like the Dynaudio. The UPS label is stuck directly on top of the box where all the specs are

I got an RSW15 and its a beast..... but its far from the best. The BEST covers a lot of territory and I dont think you can buy the BEST. The best would have to be built. The limitations of mass marketing, shipping costs, the flexibility to be used in 100's of different scenarios, and the need to be a commercial success, make it nearly impossible to buy the BEST. The best, if that even remotely achievable can only be narrowed down by you and your specific requirements. Can you build with wood/fiberglass/concrete? Do you plan to stay in that house permanantly? Whats your budget? You might want to consider a built in.......start with 1-15" sub and add as your budget and space allows. Depending on a lot more of your specifics , theres a million ways to answer your question.

John I have a set or Morel 6.5's and the separate 1" domes that go with them. All with very well made grill's, heavy gauge steel and very attractive. I had been saving them for myself, but its a GD shame to put these in a car/truck door without giving them a decent shot at life. These are VERY VERY high quality, have 3" voice coils, will take power like mad. They sound VERY nice. They have never been installed, I have all the factory packaging. As good as these are, I do not think you will get 60HZ @ -3db in your doors. I have no crossover for them, they were meant to use active X overs. These are really TOO good to be in a car. But if you want em, PM me. I think they are only about 93 db 1W/1M, but if you got power they will kill the JL's in SPL. The tweeter is a 1" ferro fluid colled soft dome with a huge magnet and a resonance chamber behind it, looks similar to their old 33. I believe this set was around 700.00. The drivers look identical to their older home speakers, very well engineered and designed. Their engineers came from Dynaudio.

That RSW15 is a beast! I like mine a lot. I do have a Klipsch synergy 12 that I bought as an interim solution when I blew up my old one and then my wife would not let me keep the behemoth that I built in the house........WAF is a PITA! Anyways, I have them both in there and it sounds a little better (could be in my head) with a little bit coming from the other corner. I just keep it way down as compared to the RSW since it cannot keep up with my Klipsch Reference HT set up when I am rocking the house or even in HT. I like it there, until I can get another RSW15 to match it, it makes me happy... Listen to it, albeit with the gain down below the RSW and see if YOU like it. If not, theres always Ebay to get you a few bucks toward your next RSW.

Tom, Thank you for trying but... Its always been completely unsatisfying for me to just, write a check. That takes no skill, no imagination, no effort, and no talent. I WANT to do it myself, it doesnt mean much to me if it comes any other way. Even if I got a pair for free....I wouldn't/couldn't leave them alone. I would have to dissamble them so I could understand them and then address what I saw as flaws/compromises I did not like. If it makes sense for you, fine. That dog won't hunt for me and it would not make me happy. I'd still continue down the path I am on. Its the exact same reason I do not buy MINT musclecars.........I buy junk, no one else wants, and then I "cut it up", and make it what I always thought it should/could have been. I "tub" my cars, and then add rediculous power, they end up being almost cartoonish by the time I finish. What I am after is a Pro Mod car with tags and air conditioning. They are a beast to drive, are unruly, loud, obnoxious, suck fuel like a locomotive, and thats exactly what I was after. Alas, among my other flaws I am an adrenalin junkie, but my 50 year old body can no longer take the heat. I try to remain content by pursuing things that make me happy. Music is one of those things that can still raise the hair on the back of my neck, when its right;) My "right", is not likely the same as yours, thats what makes the world go around. To me, its a SHAME, to ruin something that someone else would be perfectly happy with. I avoid these issues by making what I want or buying something only as an interim solution, to buy some time until I can go after what I really lust for. IE: a temporary fix. I have thought about this bass horn for about 20 years, if it was just a whim it wouldn't still be nagging me. I have never been completely satisfied with anything, and I doubt that I will ever find complete nirvana, yet the quest for it continues unabated.

Forgot this...... I will try and contact Mr. Delgado. I wonder if I can buy all the parts cut, but not assembled? That might be enough for me to still love them. Wierd huh? The only limitation's we have are self imposed............................. I like BIG horns!

Thank you Coytee...... I will try to find Eric.. Orlando is within 30 minutes of me. Maybe he'll let me have a listen... I think his version would be the one I'd want, the maximum SPL is right up my alley!~ A secret I've not disclosed until now..........My intention is to use whatever I build with a Concrete horn loaded subwoofer that i intend to build into the floor of my new shop. I have 45 acres on a nice lake about 15 minutes from my current home where I intend to retire. I once saw in speaker builder I think, wont swear to it. A guy (France maybe) built a huge (IE 30plus foot length) bass horn into the the floor of his building. I have always lusted after that and I intend to do it. My difference is that mine will be outside and IN the ground, if it dont work out, I'll have an ugly swimming pool......... I won't be happy until I try, now I got to have something that can "keep up" spl and quality wise. I have always been of the impression that "too much" is just about right. My barn is 40 x 48 inside and has 12" ceilings. I know I'll have to add on later. I dont know anyone who has a garage thats big enough. The horn sub might end up being a grease pit, but I doubt it. I have some 15" subs made by TCI, that I plan to use in my first attempt. These drivers are over the top! 2 inches of excusion capability, I have 1 mounted in a PR box now and its pretty insane, I cant wait to hear what it can do with 10db' (or so) of gain and an acoustic coupling into the shop. Real 30hz bass at 120+ dbs should be within reach of 4 of these. Not sure why I'd ever need that, same reason I like 1000 + Hp motors in street cars I guess. Cause I can........ I dont think my system will ever be finished....It will always evolve/morph. The journey is the FUN part.

VERY NICE!!! How do they sound? Kudo's to you sir

Pics and details please.......... This is the stuff I live for! Thank you for sharing this;).

I love what you are doing I am going done that same road myself (with a few modifications) shortly. Thank you for posting all that!

That sounds like good advice. One forum member built himself a pair of Jubilees which turned out really well, but with all the work it took, he said he'd just buy a pair next time. With horns, the dimensions are way more critical than with a normal box speaker, so it's easy to work carefully and still wind up with a bass bin that's just a bit off and doesn't quite perform to spec. As well, factory units will have much better resale value than home-built speakers. Finally, with Jubilees you get the benefit of Roy Delgado's factory-tested crossover settings. The developments are still going on. Last September, he released a new program of settings which I was able to incorporate with my JubScalas. You can guess or experiment with your settings or try to get a homebuilt speaker to sound the way you want, but using factory-tested settings lets you get to listening to music much sooner. Guys, I understand your intentions.......... But, to give you my perspective. I'd MUCH rather build them and tweak them myself at TWICE the price. I am a hobbyist, I do what I do for love, not for money. Theres no way the satisfaction I'd get would ever be the same if I just wrote a check............. I also restore old muscle cars. I'd NEVER buy a completed car, unless I stold it........... I like working on things! Once I finish them I dont sell them. I drive them like I stold them and beat them like they were intended. making money on them has never been a consideration..........I do them as I want them. This hobby is cheap entertainment compared to say a hot rod acrobatic plane, a 54 ' Hatteras, race cars (OMG, dropped 100K plus in one season), or even my wifes maintenance (shoes, clothes, cars, remodels;). Thankfully, I dont really need money. I love music, wood, and maiking things better than I found them. The creation of something beautiful/precious can NEVER be compared to writing a check in my book. I dont want any other kinds of speakers at this time Dean......I have EVERYTHING to build a full on set of Dynaudio Evidence's, and at the moment I could care less. If you want the speakers you suggested, by all means, go get them. I am trying to move towards what I WANT to do, with MY time, and MY money, and MY hobby. If it turns into a stinking pile, I'll regroup and move along. I have had great (IMO) success in building almost innumerable commercial systems in this hemisphere in addition to building over 20 complete sets for myself and my friends who had to have them......... I know how to determine what the problems with a design are, and I know how to correct them, or make compensation for them, myself. I have a 1/3 octave analyzer at my disposal and the means to use if effectively. I did sound as a living for a period, now I do it for love. You may need to buy your toys. I can build mine, and tweak them until I am satisfied thats there nothing left in the design or no more compromises that I want to make. There is NO "perfect" speaker. As a designer, you get to decide what the compromises are, and I like that part. From what little I know of Mr Cullison on this forum, we are kindred spirits. Take this however you want to......I don't do what I do for people like you. I got to wonder... why are you here?

Sorry, again I was a bit unclear.... Seems to be a habit of mine. This will better explain it.. take the guy on the forum that has the 2 bass bins, what appears to be a large mid or mid bass bin, and BIG unfolded midrange horn, with a tweeter sitting on top. it looks to be either theater or commercial stuff. I cant see so good, so i dont know if its flying gear or intended to be. But anyway in my terminolgoy, I'd call his array a WWMMT, IE woff/woof/ mid (mid bass?)/mid/tweet hope that clears up any confusion I was responsible for. Mike Milliken

Mr Colter, We are speaking a different language here......... You are apeaking of Klipsch model designations.. I am talking about speaker building. IE: WMTMW = woofer/mid/tweeter/mid/woofer ......a set up useful for center channels and reference speakers because of its superior polar response capabilities a 2 way (2.5 possibly) version of the above would be MTM, and would be used "like a monitor" on top of a bass cab or maybe with a sub. Mid/tweet/mid or you could do a full range like this and call it a WTW. There was a guy who took this old design style and basically put his name on it, though he had nothing to do with its creation.... Its not Dickinson... Hes a talented speaker designer and he's still withj us today. Used to be a frequent contributor to Speaker Builder.. I got CRS bad and cannot recall his name at the moment.. I was referring to the stacked driver cabs used in pro sound, where you have a dedicated mid cab, usually a mid bass cab, a woofers cab, usually also a dedicated tweeter array (but please, please, NOT MOTOROLA HISSERS!) I spose everyone doesnt "stack " them like I do and thats likely responsible for the confusion. When I talk/write, I often wrongly assume we are all starting from the same place. Its an idiosynchrosy I should probably work on...... Irritates my wife pretty constantly, but I never understand WTF she is talking about. I do not know a lot about Klipschs designations, so I call things with names I am familiar with and hope peiople understand what I am trying to convey.. I will eventually learn Klipsch-speak, but right now I'm a retard in that area.

Its my pleasure to help you on the HT crossover settings. I will have to defer your questions on the surrounds to someone else as I am unfamiliar with the models you mentioned. You might get better results by just asking that question as a new post. Did you listen to your sytem with the new settings? The 3's you got up front will def sound better without taking the bass away from them

Arky, I am intrigued by the Jubilees, but I think thats infringing on Klipsch. If someone from Klipsch tells me its OK, then I's be all over it. My fascination with them is that insane (IMO) gain they have on the woofers. If there is a more effiecient speaker that can match their clarity, bandwidth, and ultimate SPL, I would LOVE to hear about it. Thats got to be one of the best small (relative term) bass horns that I have ever seen I got no idea what a Jubscala is............Is it safe to assume its a Jubilee bass bin, with a Lascala top? Is Klipsch OK with "cloning" their bass bin? Most corporations are very protective of such things.........If Klipsch says I can build one, I will. I dont want to get in a patent infringement suit with anyone................ I hate attorneys for the most part.

AND... besides the bass issue from the port exciting resonances in the flimsy backing on the cabinet.........The cabinet backing is acting like a speaker AS WELL, MAKING ITS OWN MUSIC. Sorry about the caps, I got "sausage fingers" Diffraction is a big issue there as well, the board's in the sides/top of the cabinet are interferring with the speakers radiation pattern and causing lots of evil. If you sit them on top of the cabinet it will improve 100%. In addition to the problems from the rear port, the woofer "sees" (has 1/2 space gain, 3/6 db in theory) every wave length that comes out of the front of the speaker that meets a boundary that it closer than the length of the sound. Comb filtering was mentioned above, but I think its more boundary gain at all the different frequencies that are equal to and longer than the distance from the nearest boundary they intersect. There will be some rather sharp peaks and dips introduced into what you hear. Not sure if I said that right......without referring to technical papers that I am too lazy to look for. In laymens terms, what I am trying to say is you will get a 3db gain from sound emanating adjacent to 1 surface thats distance away is closer (distance) than the length of said wavelength. And then when that surface is gone, you get a corresponding dip. IE: 20 hz is ... dang forget this stuff.. its been a long time since I had to think..60 feet long, (give or take, I am too lazy to look up the formula) I new this stuff inside/out when I was building TL lines. if you are at the intersection of 2 boundaries (a corner, no floor) you get a 6db gain, or an acoustic doubling in output If you are at a corner with a floor intersection, you get another 3db's for a total of 9 DB's gain at any frequency longer than the distance to all the intersections from its point of emanation. A corner can be a horn.............albeit an inefficient one compared to Mr. Klipschs. Without getting the formulas out, I'll take a guess that you have 5-7db gain roughly centered at 2500 HZ and some corresponding dips because the side of the cabinet and the top roll back at 90 degrees (no more boundary,no more gain) and... that your speakers sound like a PA horn at the ball field. with greatly exaggerated vocals and that they are buzzing (the cabinets own music), with little bass, since its energy is being wasted on exciting all the vibration modes in your cabinet. This is "sort of" why Klipshorns have to be in a corner to make bass........they are not only using the wall to continue the horns length, they are also getting gain in the bass frequencies from the wall/floor intersection. Acoustic half space.......... If you insist that I find the formulas I can.........But if you just want your question answered, there ya go .

The manufacturers make this hella complicated and it does not need to be........ Run your F3's full range, they are designed for that !! Don't think another thing about it. 35-23Khz is their rated 3db down points, IE: 35 HZ is very respectable low bass output for a speaker like that, thats the lowest frequecy it is rated to put out at -3db (half as a simplification) of its average acoustic output, you can drive it lower without damage. The volume just wont be as loud below 35 HZ. then the 23KHZ part of that its its upper frequency, its means 23,000 hz. Most people cannot hear anything at that frequency. The accepted (generally) upper range of human hearing is supposed to be 20 khz, so suffice it to say, your speakers range greatly exceeds your range of hearing in the upper frequencies. A dog may have trouble hearing 23KHZ......... then............. 50-80HZ is probably what you want the C2 at if you are going to play it loud (like me). If you behave, (no way) you can lower it and it will sound a teeny bit better (usually), but dont forget to raise it back up if you want to "rock the house", little woofers dont like to be driven out of the magnetic gap they are supposed to stay inside (overdriven, excusion-wise) I am not familiar with the Quintet 3's, and as such I am at a loss there, except to say that the surrounds do not usually carry a lot of the bass information. In my experience you can drive almost anything (besides those bose cube things) at 120 HZ pretty safely. I also think your Sub 10 will run out of steam well before your F3's will. If you are really, rocking the house you might want to turn the gain on the sub down a little bit so you dont over drive it. Those F3's are one of the very best "bangs for the buck". Its surprising how good they are;)