HornEd

John, I truly enjoyed your home page adventures and the continuing audio separates zeal reflected in your rig... although I prefer an upscale LazyBoy to *your* brown chair. And, Boa, you are right, I am trying to arouse consumer influence on bass standards applied to creating multi-channel DVDs. I just have a problem explaining it succinctly. Clearly, the screen is primarily where the action is... and most of the attention rightly goes there... including LFE. The potential to handle first octave bass on the front array is generally here... particularly when the sound stage is balanced with high mounted front effects speakers. My concern is the rear array... that has taken years to develop... and seems to have a long, long way to go in a couple of areas. First, unless the DVD creators put in decent sound designed to immerse the consumer in sound... rather than supersaturating the front array... there is little equipment manufactures can do to help. I will say that Acurus3 seems to be on the right track toward allowing you to better fit the bass to your acoustic situation. While most of us are primarily concerned with two bass aspects, "Aural Bass" (within one's hearing) and "Felt Bass" (deep tissue feeling)... and less attention has been directed toward the "directionality" issue. I believe that home theater enjoyment is greater when Aural Bass directional clues are heard from the speaker closest to the intended orientation of the sound... and the low range (non-directional) aspects of that sound are heard from the main subwoofer array (which is the instrument designed to handle the low end). From time-to-time, certain passages of certain CD's are noted for their all encompassing sound when heard on a good HT rig. In fact, that is the subject of one of the most popular posts on the Klipsch board. Those highlighted are usually ones that saturate the room like the opening landing sequence of "Saving Private Ryan." And that's cool... but how about giving us consumers that overall treatment will full bass more of the time. And that highlights part of the problem. Surround sound began more as auditory "clues" (and speaker manufacturers built product to that standard) rather than providing a full range of sound coming from side and rear locations. One of the reasons for that approach may have been the cost factor to the consumer of having robust speakers in all locations... and, thus, most of us who care tend to have a definite overkill in our rear array for most program material. Of course, full range multi-channel speakers become more challenging in the area of room acoustics. So, having a sound system that puts all the low end through a subwoofer array (twin subs get lower ranges more cost effectively) makes precise subwoofer placement simpler. And, if all of the bass in the aural clue range is sent to the appropriate speaker (whether front, side or rear), the consumer gets his best shot at being fully immersed in bass waves. Why the concern for bass other than its moving quality and exquisite beauty? I suspect that the low resonance effect on the brain reinforce the aural directional clues and effectively increase neural pathways leading to better cognition and enjoyment of our human condition (That's sub human condition to you, TV). So, more and better quality sound to the rear array by the creators... and more and better control of that sound by more manufacturers... should give us more enjoyment from are chosen Klipsch environment! HornEd

In response of those who asked about Home Theater Front Effects, here is a Klipsch imposed <20k photo of a pair of SB-2's mounted six feet high and a yard outside of the KLF 30 mains. Too bad you can't enjoy the <200k version. The stands are made from a length of ABS 4x4 black sewer pipe cut in half, end caps to hold the speakers (industrial Velcro)and a metal/ABS metal collar screwed to a 12" oak round about 3/4" thick. 10 lbs of shot in the bottom keeps them rock steady. The Front Effects speakers allow the KLF 30's to be close in to the reverse projection HD1081 and KLF C-7. Hence, all dialogue is tight to the screen and sounds erupt from the screen to the mains and radiate out to the front effects... for a "big theater" six-speaker front sound stage... complimented with a six-speaker rear effects array mounted just high enough to get the higher frequencies over the chair backs. The next project will be to develop a better low bass environment. Oh, and the glue bit in the caption stems from a sudden rattle that developed in a very narrow seldom used frequency range in the right KLF 30... so the beat goes on... for now! HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

LaScalas deserve your exacting concern... and maybe more than $2k might bring to some ears. You might explore the pragmatic concepts of the finicky "Legendary SubHuman" found at www.svsubwoofers.com for an approach to gaining 95% of the bass you desire. It is the top 5% that gets forces the physics into the fiscal realm. Essentially, his technique is to get all the bass there is and EQ out the undesirable aspects. Not a bad plan even if you are not on a budget. What ever you do, LaScalas sing better when they have a great, natural bass to build upon. Enjoy! HornEd

Boa, as you know, I have a mom whose 93 yr-old neural nets I try to stimulate through "natural" sounds accurately placed around our home theater environment. Obviously, content will always be a hassle as long as there is an "art" to portraying sound effects to virtual HT "existence." And my quarrel is not particularly with LFE for that was designed to solve theater economics... and only borrowed to augment certain HT situations. I just hope that, some day, we can have the "natural luxury" of having 95% of all the sound in a good DVD delivered to our ears in a way that preserves the illusion of directionality... which brings more depth and realism to the HT experience. Even with "perfect" speakers, pushing everything under 120hz to a "low range" subwoofer doesn't do it. Cutting everything under 100hz to the five or six "full range" speakers doesn't do it. If your KLF's and Cornwalls could be fed a sound diet down to 60-80hz and your Velo HG18 got everything under 100hz from every discrete source... you would experience an even greater HT and multi-channel music turn-on... with a minimum of standing wave complications to your bass enjoyment. In my naivete, I cannot see why a little more engineering on the frequency distribution manifolding couldn't make all of our HT investment more gratifying. HornEd

Exactly my point, John. That which I believe we consumers should seek is tantalizingly close. Unfortunately, the acoustic nightmare that can come from multiple subwoofers falls short of where we could be, at least in my six-sub experience. With some exceptions due to content elections of sound engineers, the quality of "woofing reality" is compromised by not having the "directional aspects" of bass coming from strategically placed speakers (front r&l+c and rear r&l+c) and the "non-directional bass" flowing out of an ideally placed sub-array. Getting the first octave to meaningfully reach ones ears is neither easy nor cheap... trying to get it from six different directions does not seem practical without a better standard to allocate available bass waves. And, Boa, thanks for getting your "coils" around this compromising bass chase from music to HT. Your eighteen incher has bought you more bass enjoyment than can be easily enjoyed. Rock on... with real rocks! HornEd

Let's face it... the joys and woes of those of us who buy subwoofers is often beyond our ability to reposition speakers and tweak the amps that feed them. The wondrous LFE channel was built not to feed our bass desires at home... but rather as a less expensive way to bring theaters "down" to speed in action movies. And the fledgling bass management of most amp configurations are a labyrinth... usually without a suitably justifiable reward. Of course, there is a whole different bass management set-up for most music buffs. LFE (when it exists on the program material) has its merits for pumping up the front array (mains and center) but usually doesn't do anything for the growing importance of the rear array (rear surround/effects and rear center channel... which is most often an arbitrary matrix). Many receivers also pool the front array for sub material... but even if they pull from all five (or six) discrete channels... the full bass benefit is usually missed! Why? HT and music gains (or loses) from three aspects of bass... sound, feel and direction. Sound being eardrum oriented, feel being deep tissue oriented and direction being sounds above 60-80hz which either contribute a sense of reality juxtaposition or are illusion destroying artifact. Rarely is a rig set up to get the most from all three aspects... through which we attept to find pleasue from a "content challenged" set sound engineering standards. Why can't we have a relatively simple system that delivers all "non-directional" sound to a subwoofer group (cost effective first octave config.) and the balance of the "directional" sound to appropriate front and rear array speakers equal to that task. As it now stands, most of us have paid the price for performance... but evolving standards and outmoded solutions (like LFE)continue to confuse the issue... to say nothing of the varied formats sound engineers have applied to the existing stock of HT material. The 5.1 sound treatment given the DVD of "Ben Hur" and "Lawrence of Arabia" spring to mind as a step in the right direction. Is it not time for the industry-at-large to give us some fundamental bass benefits of easier-to-use and more dynamically accurate bass management? A system that sorts bass management on a directional/non-directional basis would provide automatic added benefits with most equipment upgrades... creating a natural marketing path for us "bass-lemmings" to plunge toward. Is it too much to ask to have all the depth of sound we can afford easily coupled with the "illusion/sense" of whence it comes? It is so easy to become lost in the "what's watt" and sub placement aspects that we miss the simple fact that those discussions would be far better served by a better industry sound standard geared to the growing HT market. It is no wonder that so many of us fear buying "new" technology that provide our beloved Klipsch collection with "unsound" delivery configurations. What say you? HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Having a pair of 30's and a trio of 10's, the opportunity to compare with the same environment, I have elected to put the 30's as mains for their robust attack and mellow bassline... with the KSW-15 available for any shortfall. Due to a scarcity of 30's in this part of the world, I used 10's for the rear arrays... and they did not disappoint. But, let's face it, legends are scarce and getting more so. I picked the 30's over the 20's by the punch in ear... and sought three more 30's after the initial pair... but in the end I was lucky to land three 10's... and a C-7 to bring out the best in the 30's. Just keep a glue bottle handy! HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Getting to first bass with HT's diamond in the rough is not an easy task in these days of mid-format transition. I have found Brian Florian's article (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html) to be a sound beginning to HT bass understanding And, Boa, what an incentive it provides for you to pick up another 18 incher My concern remains that I be able to knowingly direct bass material in a way that it becomes most meaningful... and so far I haven't found the right "tweek environment"... even in the 5800. And so, like the fabled Greek who searched for an honest man (and found an earnest comicstrip Pogo wanting for having returned a dollar with a different serial number)... I shall raise my lamp unto the gloom and search for an honest bass. HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" Front Six Pack: KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7 KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects Rear Six Pack: KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Happy Ears x2!

Ye gads and little fissures... I have been undone! Unnervingly harsh rattles have begun to appear upon the velvet landscape of my KLF 30's. The solution seems beyond "The Good Guys" who are flat out of Legends. All remedies will be dutifully explored. HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" KLF 30's Front Mains KLF C-7 Front Center KSW-15 Front Pwr Sub SB-2 Front Effects KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear L&R KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear Ctr. Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Yes, Boa, as you might suspect I am indeed thinking of something more complex. And, I agree, ledzeprep, a good EQ goes a long way to making those big, bad bass waves behave through the artful process of elimination. The Denon 5800 is the one that uses the latest dts algorithms for making multichannels out of various formats. I suspect that a lot more of the higher end preamp builders will be on the bandwagon before the year is out. I think we are in the middle of a technology and craft shift from two surround sound speakers designed to give "aural clues" to three full spectrum effects speakers. I expect that the preferred placement would have the left and right rear effects speakers against the side walls just behind the main listening area and one rear effects speaker against the middle of the far wall. We are in the process of viewing all our past favorite DVD's in this configuration... and you can readily hear great differences in the range of sounds assigned to the surround tracks of 5.1. As a full sound treatment (rather than limited surround clues) is given to rear right, left and center channels, it seems appropriate that the non-directional low sounds should be sent to the .1 channel... and that does not now seem to be the case. My experiment with extra Ksubs to the rear array has brought out deep sounds with directionality from DVD's that did not appear before the rear subs. Clearly, the best of both worlds seems to be having the three rear speakers set on a crossover of about 80hz and everything below headed for a big corner sub. That way your sense of direction will come from the appropriate direction and the quality non-directional base can come from an instrument designed to keep pace with the deep natural bass that can transform a movie into a bona fide experience. Boa, I think you are on the right track with your 18 incher... now all you have to do is funnel the bass your not getting into that HT beauty. HornEd

The HT trend seems to heading toward having a six pack of discrete Klipsch speakers and a "big daddy" bottom-feeding subwoofer chasing after everything under 80hz. The latest Denon's include an algorithm from dts that makes just about everything six channel that isn't already. Admittedly, six discrete channels (R&L mains, front center, R&L surrounds, rear center) take a bit more fiddling and a few more bucks... but it can do wonders for acoustically challenged environments. I even like adding a pair of front effects speakers to raise and widen the sound stage while my mains and center are tucked close to the widescreen to better knit the audio to the video for us narrow minded enthusiasts. But, by far, the biggest challenge is making the big bass waves behave. Here is a place where size matters... and the longest waves are omnidirectional... so one choice corner array of two subs should be able to keep the joint full of the big ones... EXCEPT there seems to be no easy way to skim all the non-directional bass from the ALL SIX discrete channels and send it to the corner bass pumpers. Any ideas? ...solutions? ...or future plans? HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" KLF 30's Front Mains KLF C-7 Front Center KSW-15 Front Pwr Sub SB-2 Front Effects KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear L&R KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear Ctr. Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

There is a time to suck it up... and a time to let it all hang out. Now is the time to stand up and be counted... for all those too timid to put bad advice in its place. By your own admission, you went to an upscale Klipsch source to have confidence in an advice more expert than your own. You, and others like you, deserve to have better value for your trust than an absolute fairy tale that violates something as primal as the Klipsch Speaker Matching Chart! After all, you risk not only getting less than your money's worth... but you, your friends and family must also must endure hours of diminished listening pleasure. Please, launch1, take back the SC-1 and get the RC-3 that always should have been! At least tell the manager or store owner, by letter if need be, that your confidence in his shop and the money your paid for your critical center channel would have been better placed at "Cheap Charlie's Discount Audio & Psychic Speaker Advisory." Make no mistake, you can get great sound out of a two-channel rig... but HT DEMANDS the right center channel to get the most value out of your whole system. Having the dialogue come through true and clear adds impact of subtle nuances to a story... just like the right sub puts it's special emphasis on a timely explosion. Miss either one and you get a second class (or worse) experience for the money you have spent. And, if you do not speak up, that same sorry line is going to hook other folks naively trusting as you once did. It is far easier to get such a travesty repaired early on... so get thee hence and find out why the RC-3 has carried such favorable mention on this board. If your a real HT fan, you will learn that it is better to pick out the best center speaker you can afford and then pick up the mains that match it best... then the other way around. The movie industry has been biased toward Dolby ProLogic mentality for decades... so most of the available program material pours 70% (or more) of a movie's sound through the center channel... and you want to skimp there? It is like putting your best right foot forward in your left shoe! Further, any self-respecting authorized dealer worthy of anyone's trust should be eager to set your problem straight. If anything kills a dealerships long term profit potential... it is the silent group of disenchanted buyers that simply "suck it up" and don't go back. Like any retired business owner, I have been guilty of having people on my staff that have not always been what they should have been to my customers. Sometimes, no matter how much I tried to keep my reputation, I had the good fortune to have someone like yourself speak up and let me know the "horrors" that can creep up in even the best run shop. And, when they make good... or especially if they don't, let us all know. Public opinion is the Achilles heel of the Audio heel! "Suck it up" and launch1 becomes lunch1. HornEd

Hooray BobG! You are right on target! This is EXACTLY the break I was looking for... but had been fumbling until you gave the right hand off. This is the time posters like me really appreciate our "Klipsch Kover" guys. It will take awhile... but I look forward to sharing the fruits of the search... maybe even a nut or two... we will see what develops. Thanks again, HornEd

Thanks KGeist for your perseverance and perception re: this thread. Essentially, I agree with your assessment but was trying not to color potential comments. In addition to my lifelong infatuation with audio, I have had formal training in the use of Pavlovian theory in environmental structuring. I could not agree with you more about the psycho-acoustic aspect... with a possible extra attention paid to those frequencies that tend to be "felt" rather than heard. Obviously, the most important sound processor is the one between the ears that creates an illusion based upon an ongoing "clue assessment" process. And, as you so aptly point out, the source of these clues, for better or worse, are legion. But, for all that, it would seem that significant parameters could be elicited to provide greater control of what is fed to a given set of ears to enhance the quality of perception potential. By this post, I have sought to get more folks ideas as to what some of these variables may be. Your post was in keeping with what I sought... sadly many others were not. The fault is with the person who set up the post. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa! Thanks, Kerry, for the good words, they help me create a sound environment for mom. HornEd PS: Click the photo Keith and see how mom is.

Ye gods and little fishes... Keep the KLF 30's and replace the TV with a really big RPHD and you will not have need for shielded 30's or lead underwear to protect your macho from the environmentally challenged "glow worm 2000!" HornEd

tblasing is "right on" when it comes to isolating vibrations. If you have difficulty finding appropriately dense isolating material, try www.dynamat.com and make your own pads. I like a double layer... try not to get any air pockets while joining the adhesive layers. It also does well with a layer of heavy felt on the sticky side. A double layer provides an acoustic loss factor of 0.42 at 68F. It is good for insolating stacked speakers such as the center channel above a TV. Note that the product was intended to be used against sheetmetal in auto installations... so be forewarned before you attach it directly to your speakers, gear or furniture. HornEd

The easiest (and many say best) "pwr sub" plot is one "big mother" positioned to bring it best lows to the greatest listening portion of the room. Put your SPL meter on a solid pan head tripod angled toward the ceiling in the direction you usually face during an HT experience (and not directly pointed at any speaker). When lacking a heavy pro tripod, I have used a step ladder and cradled the SPL meter, correctly angled, in some sound absorbent material. You might try a few readings below the level of your main listening chair as well (sometimes the sound absorption factor of your chair/sofa back will improve the sound to your knees... but not your ears). I like to thoroughly "SPL map" the listening area with one good big sub first. In this, the idea is to keep everything the same except the position of the SPL meter. There are enough variables to placing subs to keep it exciting... without having to labor in the ignorance of where your tail was on square one. Theoretically, if the sub is delivering non-directional bass (and providing it is quick and full throated enough) it will augment any speaker in the room to which it has the low range data. And thereby hangs up my earlier tail! The trend in multi-channel sound is to have entirely discrete channels... which means that the primary subwoofer does not receive all the low hz info... and, therefore, does not provide the kick you desire. Obviously, matrixed channels synthesized from channels linked to your main sub continue to be supported (particularly if they are set to SMALL). As an aside, in many cases, giving the low stuff to your sub can really improve the high-bass/mid-range capability of your mains. Thus, for HT purposes, running discrete channel surrounds through a decent rear powered subwoofer provides the bass reinforcement needed but not available through the main subwoofer (provided it does not receive the low bass info... which can be a function of your particular receiver/amp system). Then, using "pink noise" on selected frequencies to the rear sub woofer, I "SPL map" the prime listening area twice. Once to establish the best position and a second time to roughly establish the acoustic dynamics of the room. It is in this phase that I learn to place other objects (hanging tapestries or closing drapes for best sound, etc.) in the room to shape the sound and contain the bottom dwelling "standing wave monsters" that are ALWAYS lurking. Since there are so many variables (acoustics, hardware, individual ears, etc.) that affect achieving the right sound for you (and your significant other(s)... including close friends, family, etc.), I try to use everything at my disposal to control "big bad-boy waves" that contribute so much feel of a Klipsch experience. With Klipsch, I find the better the bass (better not necessarily louder) the sweeter all those loaded horns become. And now to the phase (as I have opined elsewhere on this board). When two subs are in the same direction in their excursion to the same sound... they are in phase. If they are opposite they are out of phase... pushing air in opposite directions... and, therefore, tending to cancel out each others bass waves. So, in our discussion, we now have two factors which would destroy bass waves... the always present standing wave potential and subs out of phase with each other... (and potentially with the low end of other speakers in your rig that hit the lows). It is a physical thing. To enjoy the lowest of the low, you have very long physical waves that must be relatively intact when they hit your eardrum... or they become some other sound than the one intended on the sound source. In the main, having all your large wave making speakers in phase with one another tends to simplify the problem that all multiple speaker systems encounter in virtually every living space/home theater environment. In experimenting, I have found that, under certain conditions and program material, that I have been able to improve some large-wave dynamics in my environment by switching phases until the right sound is shaped. Because of the all variables, setting up multiple subwoofers is a daunting task that can create some hard-to-believe scenarios. Witness the tongue-in-cheek animations on the "Video Essentials" set up disc in the chapter on subwoofer placement. While that disc needs conceptual updating (in my humble but considered opinion)... it does point up the fact that overwhelming "here/gear/ear" variables make all-things-to-all-people particularly inappropriate when it comes to the care and management of bottom feeders. In the interest of more accurately conveying my esoteric experience I may have offended you with redundancy. Mea culpa and good luck. HornEd

I am an example of Keith's advice. I ran across a brand new C-7 for $320 on the 'net that was supposedly in the SF Bay Area. Well, it turned out to be half a day's drive which I did immediately. I did not want to chance some other surfer swooping in and "unmaking" my deal. And there were those who tried, but my seller felt that since I had made the commitment to drive all that way that he would stick with the deal. I arrived home in the wee hours with a big smile... that continues to this day. By today's standards, the C-7 is big and, perhaps, "old fashioned"... but they epitomize what the center channel concept is all about... matching the mains sound with a speaker that lays flat across (or below) the screen... and allows the dialogue to come across clearly. Some say that the ideal center speaker is the same as the ones you are using for mains. And while that does well for timbre matching... it usually places the center channel sound source too high above the TV to be in keeping with the illusion of "being there." Further, when it comes to the ability of having the dialogue be clearly heard against the background center channel sound... the C-7 really excels. In fairness, I hasten to say that my RC-3 did a much better than average job on this point... and its svelte modern design may be a hit with those who are not as "decor challenged" as this observer. There is also something to be said for the RC-3 in that it is still being made... not so for our beloved C-7's. At least you can enjoy your dilemma... either choice is not a bad one. HornEd

Keith, as Boa noted, many subs have 0 and 180 degree phase markings. For example, if you had two subs up front, they could tend to cancel each other out if they were out of phase (i.e., the excursion were traveling in opposite directions) but would reinforce one another if they were in phase (moving air in the same direction at the same time). That's why SVS recommends two subs in the same corner... to physically move more air and get their clean low a few db's lower. And yes, Boa, I remember well your post. Actually the KSW-15 more than holds its own given its size and BASH circuitry. I have been experimenting with various phase relationships and cutoff points. I have no doubt that there is enough "contrary air" being pushed around to impair the bass a bit... but there is still plenty to go around for my neighbors... and plenty to emphasize deep sounds that occur on the three rear effects channels. As Tom the SVS Sub-Human correctly opined, this rig can be pretty dynamic above 30hz but is not well represented in the first octave. That may change in the near future. I too tend to sense bass direction at lower levels than many "experts" claim as non-directional limits. The above post was a fishing expedition to find out if others have the same directional bass opinion. Since three KLF-10's see, to work well in the rear array of my effects boosted 6.1 system, it follows that beyond the standing wave problem is the potential for some better kick from carefully placed powered subs that take the discrete feeds and send the upper range to the KLF-10's. I know that the simplest route to ear-satisfaction is putting in a large front and rear sub... in fact, that's what I had before I tried this Klipsch experiment. They are now part of the downstairs system... which probably has more sonic muscle than the experimental system... but no super efficient horns or cylindrical subs. This house is built on a hillside with the bottom garden tier closed in by the house and two "earthquake proof" concrete retaining walls. A bridge runs from the back of the house to the second tier garden. I have been tempted to build a theater out of the bottom tier with a stair stepped ceiling to help break up standing waves. But first, I want to understand the acoustic dynamics of the first two octaves a whole lot better. In any event, thank you both for contributing. I have a lot of respect for those who lurk about this kind of board. And, Keith, the comment about casting stones was a feeble attempt to avert the avalanche of "conventional wisdom" that might flow down upon the head of someone playing with four subs in a 14' x 24' room. This time, I'll put away the stones and go with Boa's theme... rock on! HornEd

The first octave (16-32hz) probably holds a lot more potential to be "felt" rather than "heard." But, as the hz rises, there is a point where essentially "non-directional" bass begins to take on a directional character. 1. Within what hz range can the average human detect direction (Legendary Sub-Human excepted )? Further, how long (in feet/inches) is the wave that is created at the point when sound direction can be established? 2. Does the use of floor standing speakers for mains, surrounds and rear center channel create a harmful standing wave potential that leads to lesser performance. Can such waves be avoided by setting all rear effects speakers (L&R surrounds and rear center) to "SMALL?" and channeling the low range to a rear power sub? (3) Is there a practical way to tie the rear effects speakers (set to "LARGE") to a single rear power sub to provide a "kick" to the rear sound stage that is in sync with their respective discrete 6.1 channels? Separate power subs for front and rear seem to make a substantial HT difference... particularly by providing the a strategic kick in the bass. Who among you will cast the first stone? ...or, perhaps, some insight into what you think is significant in creating the illusion of direction between your own Klipsch fed ears. HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" KLF 30's Front Mains KLF C-7 Front Center KSW-15 Front Pwr Sub SB-2 Front Effects KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear L&R KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear Ctr. Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

JoeorLaurie had a somewhat similar question in Bang for Buck post... any my reply to them may fit you as well. If your primary interest is music, then the mains become important... but if you want to please the wife with every nuance of romantic dialogue... by all means get a really good center channel early on. And the RC-3 does a fine job until I could find a new C-7 to better match the Legends. Most "experts" tend to recommend having the same surrounds as mains but that is a more thorny issue than may appear at first glance. Aggressive discrete channel program material benefits most from this approach... but most program material available today on cable and DVD is more suited to the "aural clues" of early surround systems... and they can be handled by much less robust speakers. I think you would be wise to set your sound table first with a good center channel and sub-woofer... and then add on your "just desserts" as mains and surrounds become available as "good deals." ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" KLF 30's Front Mains KLF C-7 Front Center KSW-15 Front Pwr Sub SB-2 Front Effects KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear L&R KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear Ctr. Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Be happy with your decade stretch...there is no finer enjoyment than relishing that which you stretch to achieve. It is far too easy to become jaded... and lose the edge where enjoyment thoroughly tingles! You do not specify the area of your concern, but if it is a center channel upgrade, the RC-3 is a good choice for the money. Your front center channel is the main sound focus of most DVD's, and therefore should receive priority attention in a "budget conscious" system. I have had good results with RS-3's in the past as well... but now have migrated to the fast disappearing Legends... and fighting the standing waves of multiple subs. The RC-3 has performed well for me in the past as a rear center channel. I have, however, replaced it with another KLF-10. If you are doing 5.1 home theater, matching the two surrounds and rear center channel makes a far better "rear sound stage." As I explore this rapidly expanding multi-channel world, I would urge you to build your cost effective system around the single best subwoofer you can afford (an area of current exploration for me)... then add a center channel that handles movie dialogue well... then timbre match some main speakers. 6.1 seems a shoe-in as a standard to target... but there is a wide variety of less than ideal content in the current crop of DVD's... and far too little 5.1 content actually broadcast on cable channels. You seem to be aware that we are once again on the frontier of a new age of sound and image in our homes. Remember, the way you can recognize the pioneers is from the arrows through their pocketbooks! HornEd... long standing inadvertent arrow collector... too sore to sit down! ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" KLF 30's Front Mains KLF C-7 Front Center KSW-15 Front Pwr Sub SB-2 Front Effects KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear L&R KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear Ctr. Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

John, I have several versions of Brubeck's "Take Five"... which one do you mean? I sure would not want to miss it. By the way, do you have the vintage cut where Joe Murello on drums lets out a muffled chuckle after getting through a really weird timing structure? HornEd ------------------ "Klipsch by the Dozen" KLF 30's Front Mains KLF C-7 Front Center KSW-15 Front Pwr Sub SB-2 Front Effects KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear L&R KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear Ctr. Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

BobG, years ago when I was in the military stationed in France... some of my activities brought me in contact with a French military project that involved a subsubwoofer mounted like a 155 howitzer. It threw out an even lower flat curve than your Klipsch demo using some large directional tubes to focus the sound toward the enemy. It was quite disorienting and, potentially lethal so they said, but failed because the non-directional aspect of large waves tended to bite those who sent them out. The SW Research project was strictly a non-directional communication attempt as far as I know. Ignore the voices except, sometimes if you gotta go... you gotta go! HornEd

cjett... I saw the light! That was the most rewarding visit to a subwoofer site I have ever encountered. As a retired entrepreneur that changed careers every ten years, I get a special kick out of seeing people dig it out and come up winners. You can bet their web site address will get sent to everyone on my special list. usually I am not one to stand in line very long (I got enough of that in the military back when the draft was real) but how can I resist an opportunity to go cylindrical with an outfit that comes across as cleanly as svsubwoofers.com? They don't seem to be asking much except the opportunity to deliver the goods or give your money back. Frankly, it conjures up a whole new experiment. I sure could have used them in designing our 60 seat showroom theater that blew away the HQ sound pros from Hard Rock Cafe. But, tell me cjett, am I going to get an email from TVodhanel telling me your the secret red "S" in the company name came off your original blue Sub-Human shirt? It is a further credit to see a company make it on the 'net in these days of fizzling dot.coms! What a turn-on, a conversation piece that's ear candy. Thanks for the tip... and I invite all you "lurkers" who catch this post to take the SVS web tour. HornEd