HornEd

Hey Seb, you seem to have brought to the fore a worthy competitor... and I have, in your honor, looked carefully at the overall specs... and I believe that for the present, I have made the correct choice. Actual delivery and thorough testing will be done on the SVS CS-Ultra and an honest appraisal will be made and shared with this Forum. I should also be candid enough to say that I expect to tweak the unit to achieve an even better set of numbers. But, in exchange for some inside info, I am sworn to secrecy on that issue for now. As many on this forum know, my first concern has been for bass quality and bass management... with cost being a secondary concern. With cost as a consideration, SVS wins hands down. But, it is that space between ears that really counts... not specs or cost. For any bass units is less expensive than the over $5,000 per month they want in this part of the world to approach caring for my mother as I do now. Tom Vodhanel, the "V" in SVSubwoofers, speaks highly of servo based subs as a concept and particularly high of the Vel 18" HGS. He has given his assurance that the sub that is delivered here will beat anything under $5k... he seems to have been honest with me thus far and I will see him to his word. The biggest problem I see with SVS is that they are a tiny, young company. Kinda like a little duck leisurely swimming in a big pond of mighty ducks... including the Hope Horned Drake and a cubic Bozo Mudhen! It only takes one peek under water to see that little duck paddling like success is a matter of web feats and small bills! I just gotta give the little guys with big hearts a shot... like I did when I bought my first pair of horns designed by that PWK guy in Hope decades ago. They say you can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs... but those times when the grin goes from ear-to-ear for years-n'-years keeps me on the frontier. Sure ServoDrive is much bigger with a longer reputation and a lot more bucks to attract better discounts and deliveries from critical parts suppliers... and Klipsch is WAY more so. I expect I will give Klipsch a shot when they finally get these new subs are available to end consumers. And if SVS and Klipsch subs fall before the onslaught of reality... then, thanks to you Seb, ServoDrive will probably have the next opportunity to decorate my back with a feathered shaft. To some, it may seem that I am a bit fast on the draw when I get an opportunity to put up or shut up. But any who knows me knows that in the end I get my monies worth or know the reason why... and share that knowledge with those who read this Forum. Will I have to trot up to your showroom in Canada to get a demo of the top-of-the-line ServoDrive product? Hmmm, I am looking for a "Little Lamb to Slaughter" Smiley but this is all I found in the dark. HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-03-2001 at 07:50 AM

Does anyone know where a guy can get a "for real" demo of Klipsch R_7 speakers within a 100 miles of San Francisco, CA. HornEd PS: See, in desperation I can even be succinct!

Sorry, Seb, my bad! I responded when I was very tired and hadn't plugged in my "humanity" filter. This system is an HT oriented system designed to augment select DVD movies in a stimulating healthy life experiences for an elderly lady who has trouble remembering any longer than a day or two. The accent on the "felt" aspect of bass IMHO tends to increase neural pathway density... a critical issue for an aging mind not accustomed to critical thinking. But, empirically more bass (deeper & tighter rather than louder & LOUDER) seems to be working... and, frankly, I like to feel moved rather beaten upon by pitch indeterminate boomers. Gad, did it again, now your doin' the ... All I really meant to say is that I take creating a better bass environment a little more seriously than most. Building an HT system with a high degree of sound directionality is what led to the six KLF 30's. Having an opportunity to reflect large spatial effects meant going to K-horns or adding front effects channels with high mounted KLF 10's. Using Legends for this experiment allowed a greater range of placement experimentations than K-horns allow. While my experiments may be too narrow for most, the ideas I get from others... and hopefully the ideas I give to others... fit a wide variety of HT installations that are built for fun and not therapy... and besides, where is it written that therapy should not be fun? For example, I picked up a thread on this BB about Perpetual Technologies "Digital Correction Engine" and the P3-A DAC ( perpetualtechnologyies.com ) and would appreciate any additional comments on that puppy and its usefulness in the real world of Klipsch. There have been at least 250 different DVD's through this rig so far this year... and the tweaks made over the last four months have made reruns an in-depth experience. As Home Theater enthusiasts, we have an advantage over most movie theaters because we do not have to move as much air over as wide an area to make soul-stirring sound waves crash down on our leather LazyBoy beach. Seb, I have read many a thread that lament your absence from this board while you focused on your PC experience. So, when I saw those three little letters S-E-B, I jumped a the chance to see your light shine! three letters... that reminds me of a lady I met from Canada in a redwood forest last week. She is one of the people who says "ay" after just about everything. She told me that's how Canada was named... they wanted it short so they picked three letters out of a hat... and the emcee called out c "ay", n "ay", d "ay" Hope that still rates a good natured LOL in St. Bruno... where it might be old hat. Part of the issue I was trying to raise in the above post was finding the pathway between getting speakers to fit the room or adjusting the room to fit the speakers. Just as "KlipschSoundHeads" seem to want the real stuff out of a DVD or CD, I like to modify a room to minimize the coloration rooms make on great sound. I guess that's the same chase that made Yamaha spend a ton on custom DSP chips that get panned so often on this BB... but part of the failure of DSP chips to live up to their promise is that most people don't listen to them in a "sound neutral" room (if there really is such a thing in the day-to-day world). I guess if there is a real world saving grace to all this... it's that there is no shortage of non-egghead friends and relations that enjoy this Klipsch ride. Oh yeah, and my bachelor son's amorous use of the facility also got rave reviews that he described as, "Dad, you had to be there... but, I'm glad you weren't!" HornEd Geez, I got to find that "humanity filter"... maybe it's under my counter-rotating propeller beanie SPL meter?

Good news, David. Klipsch theater speakers are as close to a standard in better theaters in most of the movie going world. Most likely every great movie experience you have had has been a Klipsch experience. I think the U.S. numbers are better than 50% of all theaters are Klipsch installations. Feast your eyes on the "Cinema Series" under "Commercial Audio" on the Klipsch Home Page... your ears have been feasting on them for years... HornEd ------------------ "Living with Legends" KLF C7 Center KLF 30 Mains KLF 30 L&R Surrounds KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects KLF 10 L&R Front Effects Twin SVS CS-Ultra Sub Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... Tweakin' On! Cornwall Music Room Under Construction

I'm with Mr. Blorry... post away Rich! I have a special interest in that I am having a special motor board built to experiment building a KLF 30 Center Channel and the craftsman is in San Antonio. I also have been inside some KLF 30's do dread rattle and Post-FedEx reconstruction chores but did not take photos. Anyone have any thoughts about using a non-drying caulk and screws on the KLF 30's. That's what I did to homebuilt JBL cornerhorns with 15" woofers and passive resonators 30 years ago... and they are still doing the job for my favorite ex-wife. By the way pzannucci, LiquidNails is what's on the Klipsch line in Hope, as per Trey Cannon. Maybe that's part of the problem? Hmmm, maybe they put in this little smiley just for Legend owners? HornEd ------------------ "Living with Legends" KLF C7 Center KLF 30 Mains KLF 30 L&R Surrounds KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects KLF 10 L&R Front Effects Twin SVS CS-Ultra Sub Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... Tweakin' On! Cornwall Music Room Under Construction

Seb, as I have said on other posts, my primary aim in this particular system is to stimulate my dimentia and stroke affected 93 year-old mother. You would be amazed at the progress she has made in increased cognition and has even reversed some of the dimentia trends. She has done this under the scrutiny and testing of top notch UCSF doctors who have watched me use advanced Pavlovian techniques to structure her environment for specific ends. These are techniques that I began using in the U.S. Army Medical Corps and later used to improve the productivity and enhanced life style of my employees over the years. I add this only as a clue to the level of care and concern that I have in this arrangement... and that you are aware that I am after effective bass not just loud bass. I must have a dozen different subwoofers attached or stored here... and two more from SVS are on the way. Currently, my rear array consists of three KSW-12's with KLF 30's shock mounted on top of them. You are correct, Seb, in assuming that most sound engineers send very little full-range discrete content to the rear channels... and often what they do send is a fairly low volume. Remember, for over a decade, engineers have been putting narrow frequency "verbal clues" for the surrounds for directionality... and the main punch came from the mains. However, there is a distinct trend IMHO toward fuller spectrum rear discrete sound in newer releases. I set the rears to LARGE and run Monster speaker cable to the subs and extentions to the rear array KLF 30's. Frankly, the KLF 30's do a good job... but having the subs to provide the extra kick to some discretely portrayed explosion has helped stimulate mom to the max! For the time being, I am using a single KSW-15 for the front array... and would have bought a second but I would like to hear the new Klipsch subs. Since the new K-subs will be awhile in even publishing anticipated specs and my research cannot afford to wait, I am awaiting delivery of a twin SVS CS-Ultra with 1,000 watt (500 per channel) Samson amp and an EQ for experimental use. I bought the KSW-12's before I had six KLF 30's. With so many 12" and over woofers, I have had to be very judicious in placement and sound absorbtion surfaces to win the battle of the standing waves. While in an ideal world frequencies below about 80Hz are "non-directional, the real world is sufficiently imperfect to leak informational harmonics, etc. that can lead to some great listening experiences. I am also awaiting delivery of a pair of Cornwall II's that I picked up for music room duty... but that is another story for another time. I just returned from a long trip home from the wilderness and will add some more when my head stops trying to get some rest. Later, HornEd

Montigue, 6.1 is far, far better than you now realize... and, right now, the best thing about it is that better receivers automatically convert 5.1 into 6.1 via a matrix of the rear surround 5.1 channels. I have yet to encounter a 5.1 movie that does not sound better in 6.1. Putting more speakers in the rear array (such as 7.1) makes a marginal improvement... but having one strategically placed rear speaker and two opposing full-range side speakers makes a far more natural sounding rear array. The big difference in multi-channel HT sound is to more closely recreate the sound dynamics of the original scene... the more discrete channels, the less one has to depend on the listener's room acoustics to fill in the gaps. Essentially, sound "dead" HT rooms allow discrete multi-channel speakers to more closely replicate the intent of a movie's sound engineers... and the horns of Klipsch do that better than any other "popularly priced" HT environment! Sound deadened rooms help reduce the negative effects of standing waves... particularly in the multiple larger woofer environments that I prefer. Admittedly, some films have far better sound engineering than others. The newest DVD release of "Ben Hur" has it all over "The Sound of Music" when it comes to sound engineering. Of course, I also much prefer having front effects speakers to create a more expansive (okay, so it's expensive too) front sound stage. Oh, yeah, and I do like to hear every bit of the pipe organ's deep throated rumble of impending doom on the next 6.1 release of "The Perils of Pauline". LOL Seriously, the psychoacoustic dynamics of 6.1 (even the matrixed 5.1 variety) is much more like the use or non use of a front center channel than you might think. While phantom channels do quite well (My son and I used a phantom on my 18' x 9' front projection screen with a "home brewed 7.1 matrix" sound system in our 60 seat demo theater... two years BEFORE Dolby ProLogic came on the scene!) Sure, it takes some equipment to have discrete sound from multiple sources... but the biggest ingredient is a $35 analog SPL meter and the knowledge to minimize the effect of standing waves and un-natural coloration from overly "live" room environments. I don't have the best or most expensive HT environment now... but people do seem to come away with a sense of awe. It is all a matter of creating the right sound image in the sweet spot... the one between the ears. Go for it! HornEd ------------------ "Living with Legends" KLF C7 Center KLF 30 L&R Mains KLF 30 L&R Surrounds KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects KLF 10 L&R Front Effects Twin SVS CS-Ultra Pwr Sub KSW-15 Pwr Sub (rear) Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... Tweak On! This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-01-2001 at 12:17 PM

Chriscat22, fi money is an absolute crunch see if you can stretch to the KLF 20's for a better horn experience. I use inverted KLF 10's as front effects speakers and they do a great job... I used to use three KLF 10's as side and rear surrounds... and they did a great job. But, there is no substitute for mains that are KLF 20's or 30's for they share the same horn arrangement and differ primarily having a 10" or 12" woofer. Personally, I would spring for the a KLF 30 for only $100. It is probably easier to find a $100 now than try to find a discontinued KLF 30 later. Also, I think it will be easier to sell a KLF 30 years from now for a decent price. The marketing trend is away from larger speakers... but, man, do they deliver the Klipsch sound!!! HornEd ------------------ "Living with Legends... " KLF C7 Center KLF 30 L&R Mains KLF 30 L&R Surrounds KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects KLF 10 L&R Front Effects Twin SVS CS-Ultra Megawatt Subs Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... Tweak On! This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-30-2001 at 06:21 PM

Thanks, BobG, for another example of the "BobG Klipsch Class" that keeps so many of us in constant high regard for you. Sorry, if I was a bit sensitive, but trying to keep things on target on this BB is a penchant of mine too. I just seem to have more experience in the mistake department. You, personally, have gone a long way to make this board special, BobG, and the freedom to speak out on speaker related issues is second to none. Long may you wave! HornEd, K-Patriot & "Good Guise" Needlepointer

Mdeneen, you've hit yet another hot button! In the past I have contributed hi-res digital photos (Current cameras include an Olympus E-10 4.1 megapixel with a great lens. It dumps straight into a PC via USB. My son and I exchange hi-res photos through high speed fibre optic cable access), have collaborated on many commercial tee shirts with a friend who has done about half of the top ten Harley tees of all time. I also have the ability to create high quality custom type fonts for special purpose use. I don't have the Klipsch in my collection that you desire... but we ought to find something between Healdsburg and S.F. As a fellow artist, I want you to know that I have no exploitive ideas toward your ideas... just a keen interest in seeing such a project through! As a retired businessman, the Klipsch market is probably a thin enough to make this a "Labor of K " But, it is something that seasoned K-Forum could truly enjoy. Maybe we could take up a collection and provide key Klipsch Forum personnel with an "Unofficial Irreverant Closet K-shirt" for all the good swift kick-in-the-posts they have shared... HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-30-2001 at 04:26 PM

Back a little further in time, they had something called "High Fidelity" on which I spent my youth. Then, while stationed in France, the PX got in something called a "stereo"... a non-descript "suitcase" with a questionable turntable and two even more suspect detachable speakers. I snapped it up along with a half-dozen or so of the curiously marked "stereo" records. It was exciting... but no match for the big tube amp and monster cubic inch speakers of my hi-fi home-built days. It didn't take long for my new stereo to become a gift to the local French hospital children's ward (A neighbor's child was hurt and when I visited I was appalled at the lack of attention these kids got. So I started dropping by to tell them common fairy tails in my then fractured French... the more inept the translation... the more they laughed... it was a most rewarding experience). You, see, I had discovered a pair of nicely spaced cabinets built into the stone walls of my building, fronted by flush mounted heavy oak doors covered for many years by ancient wall paper. With the proviso from the building owner that modifications were OK as long as they remained after I left. So, I popped in some 15" woofers with a multi-cell mid-horn array (in the center), carefully cut circles in the oak from the reverse side without damaging the wallpaper, made a jillion pin holes in said wallpaper and rocked on with a real rock enclosure that sure surprised unknowing guests... and that was my first honest-to-goodness stereo... I think it was fired with either an old Mac amp or maybe a Heathkit. Great memories... lost in space... of Planet Fuzzbrain! Hmmm, thanks for plumbing my depths, "cousin" Olaf. Your post reminded me of Larry Elgart hanging out in my place in San Antonio after fun jazz sessions with the late Jim Cullum, Sr. (original source of the Live from the Landing PBS radio show). I had a freestanding 40' x 60' masonry building built like an intimate nightclub overlooking a large, tree lined free-form bass pond. It was a great opportunity to develop "Klipsch-ears." Unfortunately, no one conned me into buying K-horns for $90 in my whole life. So my heart goes out to you, djk...... NOT!!! HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-30-2001 at 06:02 PM

Wow, Seb, all those posts and quality too! Glad you weren't permanently consumed in hot PC posts from Quebec. I have an SVS twin Ultra-CS with a megawatt Samson plus an EQ (for experimentation) on the way. Though they are designed to be together in the best corner, I am tempted to try flanking them outside my KLF-30 mains (which are outside a 65" RPHD TV) and inside the high mounted (on matching 47" tall equipment racks) inverted KLF 10 front effects speakers. My thought is that the even distribution in this particular sound absorbing environment may prove a worthy experiment. I am a success oriented veteran of the "standing wave wars" through my use of three KSW-12's in a rear array and a single KSW-15 up front. My purpose was to augment HT rear sounds to stimulate my 93 year-old mother... and indeed it does! She has become a real Klipsch fan... routinely telling her friends that "Having 'horns' is the key to longevity with a smile!" With the bottom feeding aspects of the SVS CS-Ultra in mind, wouldn't we be better off setting the side & rear KLF 30's to "LARGE" for better bass directionality and direct all other sub frequencies directly to the bottom feeder? Thousands of "lurkers" may be looking for your response, Seb... I know I will. Thanks. HornEd PS: Attention Klipsch Smiley Division... we need a little smiley with REALLY BIG EARS! ------------------ "Living with Legends and Loving it!" -HornEd's Mom This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-02-2001 at 12:47 AM

Hear! Hear! Well spoken mdeneen!!! I, too, respect the needs for ANY speaker company to chase the curve of prosperity in this "sell or be eaten" world. But I also deeply respect the old horns that got them to where they are. Fortunately, Klipsch seems to have some upper-end horn preservation strategies on the back burner... and they do tolerate our candid comments on this BB. And I do recall that no less a personage than BobG himself said (after a heavily pro R_7 pitch) that there may be some old reprobates that still prefer the K-sound of Legends. I try to keep an "open ear" out of a sense of fair play... but your comments resonate in my election to wait before driving across the state to hear the latest and greatest offerings. But I sure would for some used 15" chunks of K-yesteryear! Thanks for being there mdeneen... I'll save a standing wave for you HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-09-2001 at 09:17 AM

CRAZEDLUNI... how did you come by your name? Maybe it was by a Santa Claus Lusting for four RF-7's rather than five? I figure it may take my local Good Guys at least 'til Christmas to find sound room space for these "sonic hotties." You have proven you have the space and taste to opt for matched mains and surrounds... but how about the dynamite rear effects options on that 5800? Personally, I much prefer at least a 6.1 (automatically generated from 5.1 sources) for HT fare. But, just maybe, you know something that I should. What say you? HornEd ------------------ "Living with Legends... and K_7 Challenged" KLF C7 Center KLF 30 L&R Mains KLF 30 L&R Surrounds KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects KLF 10 L&R Front Effects Twin SVS CS-Ultra Megawatt Subs Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... R_7 On!? This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-30-2001 at 07:37 AM

In deference to the "sound" orientation of this board, afraid, please note the short-cut "monkey business" reference. I sat on the San Antonio's special Economic Advisory Panel for many years during the 70's because of my "egghead" rather than my sense of outrage. I tried to bring some balance to the folks from Boerne to Pecan Valley. You have more than K-ears, you have lived in two of my favorite S.A. areas. I lived in Inspiration Hills for better airport access... but, then, at least I was able to kick back with K-horns. Now I just hum "All My Exes Live in Texas!" My comment on Red was in reference to what he can do if he wants to... not how he would do it. I'll save that for a more political forum. And, yes, the Rams are FUN! I was a big Cowboys fan... but a lot of that was because I was lucky enough to count Tom Landry among my friends. Not many know it, but Tom was a B-17 pilot in WWII and did a commercial with the still flying B-17 "Chuckie" based at my favorite Vintage Flying Museum at Meacham in Fort Worth. Wow, no wonder I surrounded myself with Klipsch Legends... I may be turning into an antique. Oh, well, I suppose it is better than the alternative. HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-30-2001 at 07:17 AM

Your suspicions are correct Mr. Blorry! Six KLF-30's do indeed make a well balanced and enchanting HT system... particularly with inverted KLF-10's 47" above the floor for front effects in an "expansive" sound stage. If you enjoy your 30's, you would indeed enjoy hearing 7.1 with four more. In this acoustic setting, some of the deficiencies you noted tend to less of a problem with more Legends. But, now, I would like to turn my attention to creating a grand old Klipsch music room downstairs. You mentioned "In fact, while salivating over these spectacular Heresys, I noticed that there was a pair of walnut K-Horns, and a matching Belle also just hangin' out in the used speaker department! They all matched in both wood color, grille cloth and condition!"... and I suddenly wished I still lived in NY or my son was still at Cornell for a drive-by ear shot. Could you send me the name, address, phone, email, price and/or what-ever from the store? I would like to check them out. It is not easy to find that kind of match at this end of the country. May your dwelling space grow to your "K-ear" taste, dude. HornEd ------------------ "Living With The Legends" KLF C7 Center KLF 30 L&R Mains KLF 30 L&R Surrounds KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects KLF 10 L&R Front Effects Twin SVS CS-Ultra Megawatt Subs KSW-15 Pwr Sub (rear) Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... Tweak On! This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-30-2001 at 06:42 AM

Hey, "Cousin" Olaf... we may share more than you think... all my grandparents were born in either Southern England or Northern Germany... and according to my ophthalmologist, I have a somewhat rare eye disease that "proves" I have Nordic blood in my veins. One thing about those Vikings, they didn't mind making house calls! I too have been a Viking fan since I flew into Minneapolis to speak at a three-day technical conference in a blizzard. I was met by some industrial cuties who took me by limo through the blizzard to the Radisson, given a suite and then helped into the sauna, etc., etc., etc.! Three days later the ladies of Swedish extract (employees of the host and BIG Viking's fans), my job done, whisked me back and put me on the plane. All the while the record blizzard raged. They may not have fun being Swedes... but I sure did. Red McCombs (the new Viking owner) is a real prince. He came into San Antonio, TX as an 18 year old unemployed person with zero connections. He got a job washing cars at the local Ford dealer. The owner gave him a chance to sell cars... he wound up owing the dealership. I knew him from my dealings with the San Antonio Spurs (in which he was the principal owner)... I know he wanted to bring an NFL team to the Alamo city... but he really seems enthralled with the Viking fan base. It sure will be interesting to watch. I think I'll cool off by reading a couple of Technical posts... this General section is raising my blood pressure. Next post it will be speakers, honest BobG! Sorry, seems I got my "Horn" stuck in "monkey business." HornEd

I used some of that "expanded rubberized mesh" for lining shelves and it straightened my vibes. HornEd PS: dougdrake2, will you be going to "DougDrakeToo" in the next reincarnation? your posts!

My pet CR peeve is that they tend to "test" mainstream (read that "popularly priced" trendy items of "Inquiring Minds") and that doesn't help much when you have "Klipsch Ears" or a "Corvette Foot!" HornEd PS: Hey, Olaf, I like your hat! This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-29-2001 at 09:44 AM

Hey, Cruzar, you're right about the SPL meter. In this world of multiple speakers and built-in psychoacoustic bias, there is no substitute for a $35 Radio Shack SPL meter... and get the *analog* version for a better dose of sonic truth. If you really want to see the difference front effects speakers can make to a sound stage... couple your meter settings with an EQ and you will be amazed at the variations you can get to set off your mains from the thundering herd. At least in my HornEd experience... PS to MikeKid: You missed the HornEd point Mike... my ultimate horn is the shoehorn that allows me to slip into the sweetspot. LOL Not quite there yet, though. This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-07-2001 at 11:51 AM

Hello again, HTADDICT (I just responded to your two sub post). One of my favorite senior citizens is Nina Shelby (long of Ft. Worth, TX and longing for her natal N.D.) who annually gets her "reality checks" in your neck of the woods (err, plains). With that kind of HISS, the boo(ze) can't be far behind... it seems a little causation research is in order... and no doubt help will be on the way from the more learned audio-geek-ophiles in this BB neighborhood. I would try to put some kind of insulator between my amp and the TV for openers. It may not kill enough of the distortion... but it could point a finger toward a solution. Happy hunting... oh, yeah, and did I mention placement? HornEd

Ah, yes, HTADDICT, "What to do with two?"... I barely remember when life used to be that simple! I see your query even drew a comment from the "Ultra" busy Tom Vodhanel, legendary sub-human and the "V" in tiny SVSubwoofers. He, Boa and I have a healthy respect for the Vel HGS 18... and given its price, Velodyne is mighty proud too. Of course, SVS's latest offering at $2,765 for the "be all end all", totally tubular, twin Ultra-CS bottom feeder isn't exactly chump change either. Then again, don't be too sure because I just bought one... while waiting for the new (better performing? the stats are not out yet) subs from Klipsch. Now, back to the standing wavey issues of using multiple subwoofers... particularly the Klipsch variety. Pending the arrival of the SVS Ultra, I am enjoying a KSW-15 up front and three (count 'em) KSW-12's bringing up the rear... and above the first octave... it is a great (read that, cost-effective, Klipsch loyalist) way to go. For some time, I used the KSW-15 up front and a single KSW-12 in the rear of my 6.1 HT system... as you propose for yours. (Hmm, I wonder if there is a 12 step program for htaddicts? Gee, I wonder if I will ever become one... heh, heh) The PROS: In an ideal audio world, the sonic offerings of a subwoofer below about 80Hz (or so) are non-directional... thus, one (or two) sub(s) placed in the best bass corner of your listening room could handle ALL of your bass action front and rear. BUT... in the less than ideal listening space and equipment of me and thee... directionality is a factor whether due to "speaker coloration" or super sensitive ears. My non-scientific blind fold tests of an honest 93 year-old mother sitting in the sweet spot yield proof positive (at least for me) that a surprise HT explosion in the rear gets a bigger reaction with a rear sub in the dts version of the "Das Boot" sub experience. Mom has dementia... so I can repeat the experiment in a different configuration the next day and she won't remember the past day's reaction. (No, I am not cold hearted, if fact this whole HT rig was developed as an experiment to make her failing world more stimulating one in both health and enjoyment... and it's working as proven by formal university health center tests over the past five years!) Putting a KSW-15 in front and a KSW-12 in the back provided one of the best configurations I have yet tried. Now, as Boa suggests above and as Tom uses in SVS twin-sub offerings... putting two subs together in the same corner can make your subs reach lower than they could individually... but that "need" to go lower happens far less frequently on today's DVD's than most people imagine. We got more "full time" benefit from front and rear Klipsch subs than stacked Klipsch subs in our tests. The CONS: Now back to the standing wave issue. As you probably know, your ears pick up the auditory end of a bass wave because your woofer assembly is really a "motor" that moves a huge wave of air that. in the really low frequencies, is many feet long. As these many feet long waves bounce around the reflective and absorbent surfaces of your particular room, they may cancel one another out... as the force of one moving wave of air smashes into a previous wave... changing or even negating the wave. Thus, two subwoofers blasting from opposite ends could cancel each other out... and do to one degree or another. And, that, is the "standing wave" issue that haunts multiple-sub installations. Beating them takes sub-placement experimentation, time, knowledge, luck and, did I mention placement experimentation? You will be amazed... and get to know your listening room better than you ever thought you would... unless you really are a nameworthy HTADDICT! I have been using three rear Klipsch subs to enhance HT realism with directionality common to less-than-ideal listening environments which included less than full range side-surround and rear effects speakers. Also, by carefully setting the subs operating range, they give an extra kick on explosions, but (except for pipe organs, etc.) let the music alone. I have since switched to all KLF 30's in the rear array... and they seem to give enough low bass directional clues that I am going to try using the "first-octave active multiple-sub in one corner route." But even the above referenced Sub-Human will attest... that that is for those of us who are sub-souls beyond redemption. Commenting on how all this may work in your environment requires a better understanding of your room dynamics, amps, speakers and other "sound-affecting" gear. An increasingly bigger issue in today's evolving gear is "bass management" and how you can approach getting more with less hassle. Maybe you should read up on some of these issues on past threads on this board. Klipsch does more than build great speakers... it builds great listeners by sponsoring this board. Thanks Klipsch and minions BobG, PhilH, JimG and everyone's favorite phone-in-the-ear Answer Guy, Trey Cannon at 1-800-KLIPSCH. ADDICT, moi, what ever do you mean?HornEd PS: SVS was built on a "more bass for the buck" approach and came from the do-it-yourself world of bass addicts. You might want to check out sub species in the "Sonotube" world... or just put a moratorium on discretionary spending until the new Klipsch bottom feeders are released into your neighborhood LAKE (Local Authorized Klipsch Establishment). In San Francisco, trolling for new Klipsch speakers is impedede by the manager-trolls that make up the order sheets and set up the sound demo rooms! See "HornEd gets Red" in this BB "General" category. ------------------ Living HT Legends KLF 30 L&R Mains RC-7 Center (ordered) KLF 30 L&R Surrounds KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects KLF 10 L&R Front Effects Twin SVS CS-Ultra Pwr Sub KSW-15 Pwr Sub (rear) Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... Tweak On!

Here's a quote from the "RF-5 and RC Centers" thread under Technical Questions: "JimG, Thanks for the reply. I stopped by the local Tweeter yesterday and after looking it up on the computer. The salesman said they are only getting 5 pairs of RF-5s for 30 stores. He also said the likelihood that his store will get one of those 5 pairs is real slim. I'm sure he was just trying to move his current inventory of speakers first. He kept pushing the 'buy some speakers now and bring them back in thirty days for the RF-5s if we have them' speech. (Legairre)" I hope the slow stocking of the new Reference speakers is a reflection by high-volume store management that the new Klipsch speakers blow out the competition... even when the competition comes from previously "hot" Klipsch speakers! All I have found roaming Northern California this month is that catching a earful under reasonable conditions is NOT happening! I have done my part in buying out old inventory from authorized dealers... now I want a slice of tomorrow's sound today! Anybody know any good dealer set-ups to preview the new Reference line up close and personal? HornEd

My vote is with the ever sharp PhilH! The RF-5 is a great speaker... but Legends seem to get on with Legends best of all. Is not a "quality" issue... it's a "voice" thing. Remember your favorite singer doing a signature song... and compare that to any other competent singer doing the same tune. The expanded Reference line may be the greatest home audio ever conceived... but they just aren't Legends... and that is okay. For me, KLF 10's (sitting upside down on 47" tall equipment cabinets placed 36" outside the main speakers) provide a Legendary front effects background soundstage. They blend smoothly with the KLF 30 mains, C-7 center and KSW-15 subwoofer. By inverting the KLF 10's, the horn may be aimed at a point just above the ears of anyone sitting in the "sweet spot." If you are using Yamaha's front effects set up, you have about 15-35 watts to pour into each front effects speaker... and that is more than enough punch for front effects duties in a speaker as efficient as a KLF 10. I use a Radio Shack analog SPL meter and set the front effects about 5 dB under the mains. When it is set up correctly, the front effects provide a high, wide and handsome sound stage for that big as all outdoors feeling... while the mains and center stay close to the screen as the sound focus of the event. The effect can be quite dramatic for HT... and the KLF 10's have outperformed any other speaker I tried in that spot (which run the gamut from Klipsch SB-2's on down to a series of smaller Infinity bookshelf speakers that were far less efficient). The combination of KLF 30 mains with KLF 10 front effects, when set up correctly, are particularly delicious ear candy for any Klipsch fan. It is so sweet that after auditioning several different higher-priced amps for my HT... I kept the one with the most dramatic sound stage. In fact, I find the front effects speakers to have a greater overall effect on HT enjoyment than the rear effects speaker(s) than any 6.1 or 7.1 config I have tried. As human beings, our eyes and ears are lined up like a predator... and, as with any predator, it's what's up front that counts. HornEd ------------------ "Living With The Legends" KLF 30 L&R Mains KLF C7 Center KLF 30 L&R Surrounds KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects KLF 10 L&R Front Effects KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12 Subwoofers Twin SVS CS-Ultra Sub (enroute) Speaker Support Systems: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65" Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Sampson 1,000 watt Sub Amp and such... Tweak On! This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-27-2001 at 10:15 AM

Boa, I couldn't agree with you more on the side-surround issue. I hope you draw that line in the sand... and let the tide of consumer awareness reshape the 6.1 beach... and its 7.1 son! If the speaker industry can build as specialized a thoroughbred as a Klispchorn... why couldn't a full sized dual purpose side surround be born in Hope... for those who care enough to hear the very best... Klipsch HT. HornEd PS: I have a growing concern for your Vel's extended sub hospital stay... where can we avid "BoaPost" readers send flowers?