Bubo

Every product begins as a set of engineering design goals and a budget. The Engineers get to work and the trade offs begin. An inexpensive product can crush far more expensive products with a clever design. DAC tech and the wrap around tech is well understood at this point and the off shelf chip sets are all pretty good. I purchased a Sony DVD player last year to use the basement with various amps and was surprised how good it sounds. I think there are a lot of good DACs at all price points and above $500 you get into rapidly diminishing marginal returns. aka it's difficult to explain the added cost or quantify the "better performance" CDs have low noise and are not as dynamic as vinyl, DTS Master Audio seems to be the best of both worlds. A lot of the problem with CDs is psycho-acoustics and loudness wars, vinyl doesn't allow for loudness wars unless you want one song per side and even then it probably wouldn't work. It's the mastering that ruins so many CDs that otherwise would sound perfectly good. My two cents... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

I own 19's. I think $2500 is on the high side. From a value perspective, it is good to know what year it was made. In the later years, the woofer model changed. The most desirable woofer in this model is the 416-8b. Replacing the later model 416-8c, with the 416-8b is not an readily available or inexpensive upgrade. The 816-8b comes up on auction from time to time but go for several hundred a piece. I've never heard of a "rare edition" with "wood cabinets" as described in the listing. These will need the acoustic foam that goes around the horns, but that's available online for $35. What do you think is a fair price??? GP sells the 416bs with alnico, price is not on website.

If they are mint, I would pull the trigger. If I had room, I would be on my way to pick them up. New foam for the horns is on e-bay. around the outside of the horn, it dry rots over time like all foam rubber. I would call great plains and get a quote to rebuild the woofers and the compression driver, so you know the downside. Replacing the caps in the crossovers shouldn't be rocket science. My guess is that a local pro gear repair shop could re-foam the woofers if needed. And install new diaphragms on the horn drivers if needed, ask GP but I think they have both. Having listened extensively to a pair of 820s with the same drivers, and the rave reviews from owners of 19s, they should sound great compared to anything you can buy regardless of price. I would bring my own integrated amp, cd player and cd and some speaker cable and give them workout before we counted the money. I would also look at pics on the web and the sell sheets for the drivers and verify that they are originals, both Alnico mags I believe the ceramic drivers are much less expensive for a reason.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/ele/5205554443.html A lot of the Altec owners consider these the best home speakers that Altec manufactured. If you are not familiar with these, they are large sweet sounding 2 driver speakers with the horn operating from 1200hz up to 17-20kHz Purchased at the right price, they could be used for a while and resold if unhappy with them. Great Plains has parts and will refirb speakers and drivers.

If only I had the space for them, they would be mine.........I hope one of us is able to find a home for them.

I would look at a used Pioneer Elite THX certified receiver, the sound is accurate and plenty of power. These can run between $200-500 for a very good used one, or take a trip to the store and see what they have on the shelf. 100-125 wpc is plenty of power.

I am using a Pioneer Elite SC-91 driving 5.1.4, and during 2-channel reproduction, I have incredibely crisp sound. I listen to Jazz, 80's Rock, some of Hippy Hoppy. See my signature for my system specs. I ran my LaScalas for several years using a Pioneer Elite VSX TX-09, which is a very good AB amplifier and downmixed DTS 5.1 to 2.0. Running as a stereo, it's hard to say my other gear sounds better, and my other gear is to die for. The Pioneer fell ill, so I set it aside and unboxed my MAC gear, which also sounds great. As an experiment I purchase an Elite VSX 21 THX certified amp and some Klipsch surround speakers the top of the bottom of the line, sound pretty good actually. Predictably in all tests they can't punch side by side with the LaScalas. I did have the TX-09 repaired and it's shelved for now as I've run of rooms for my gear. I doubt I will let it go since it's such a good AB amp.

I have been reading thread on and off for some time. While barbaric, I have had some luck with the following. Blowing the records out with an air compressor, even the dirtiest records respond well to this. Followed up by using sparkle plastic window cleaner invented for air force canopies in WW2 using a micro fiber cloth. Some spots require cleaning with diluted alcohol to remove them. I should probably upgrade to grain or Vodka, MOFI sells high grade alcohol for cleaning records so it must be OK. More recently I decided to go even more barbaric and rinsed the record in the sink with warm water, then washed it with very diluted dish soap and my hand, I could feel the grit coming up with my fingers and hand. This was followed up with a quick wipe with an old fashioned record brush velvet and some 50-50 alcohol. I do my best to get the alcohol evaporated quickly. After one play there was still chunks of garbage coming off of some of the records, perhaps cleaning with a micro fiber cloths would have grabbed them. Eventually the filthy Muddy Waters LP sounded good, very very good, the Damaged the Wall Pink Floyd still sounded damaged from the garbage TT it was played on. If I were going whole hog, I would buy the industrial ionizer attachment for my air compressor and blow the records clean with it, the manufacturer informed me that yes they have people or companies that use their product in this way.....cost $500+. I did try one of the record cleaning bath tubs at a friends house, on 10 relatively clean looking records the amount of garbage that settled to the bottom and was in solution in the water was appalling. They still required more cleaning once up on the TT. The search continues.

My suggestion would be to get a used TOTL Yamaha, or Pioneer Elite Surround Receiver and run it as a two channel amp. If you can get a THX certified AB receiver even better. For a couple of hundred dollars you can get top shelf performance, a very good DAC and room EQ. You can also run in Direct Mode which gets you something like 120dB SN ratio, sounds good too. I have done side by side comparisons in my living room, and the Receivers can go toe to toe with my Mac and Yamaha amps, which is impressive. You can add an outboard phono amp any time you like, $200. If you have occasion to sample one of the amps you mentioned, and you think it sounds better, you can decide if it's worth it.

Nice, what are you running for the horn, driver and crossover? After listening to some Altec 820s, I do crave a two driver system.

IMHO most people have never heard a good system. Those that have either purchased one, or wish they had. My daughter, now 16, has remarked on several occasions that the sound systems at her friends house $$$-$$$$, sounded flat and terrible. I guess they put the money into the interest payments. Several friends that have come over to sample my system before making their next purchase, almost dry humped the speakers and or TV on some of the sweeter female vocals. As to why some are critical of our hobby, I say "let them eat clock radios".

Or you can purchase a really high quality used receiver or surround decoder, for Peanuts, and use it as your Digital Preamp with lots of interfaces. 120 db SN is not unusual. Pioneer Elites come to mind, just turn off the speaker outputs using the front panel. You also get standing wave cancelling, auto EQ and other room adjustments in the package. Like me, if you have an old school 2 ch pure analog system, run all of the digital stuff through the surround receiver, and the tape decks, radios and phono through the analog pre amp. Or ditch your analog preamp and use the surround receiver as your preamp, you even get a remote volume control. Most have plenty of analog interface and you can get a great phono pre amp for not much $$$ Bubo, If I showed you a picture of my setup, a newer Pioneer SC receiver is sitting behind this dac/preamp. I was using the pre-outs on it since I wanted something that did HDMI. I purchased this DAC to see how much of a difference there was between DAC chip sets and the receiver with the built in DAC. I would almost say the Pioneer sounds better using it's own internal amps than the XPA-2 I had it hooked up to. Haven't tried the receiver with my Bel Canto REF1000s yet though. I agree with you that you could have your cake and eat it too (almost). The separates do sound better though, including this Essence HDACC (or my Anthem) than using the Pioneer and most likely most other receivers. The pre-outs on many receivers are good but may not be up to snuff based on the other equipment down the line. This DAC is pretty good, considering the Sabre es9012 built in and also give you USB which you don't find in many receivers under 2K. I have an Emo DAC I use, but have never heard their amps. I am a fan of their business model, it has allowed lots of people to afford stereo, in many cases their first. At one time I did swap 5 different amps staying with my Mac C-32 pre amp and the La Scalas, It was 1 mac, 3 yamahas and 1 Pioneer Receiver for grins. All sounded great, the Yamaha MX-600 and MX-800 sounded just a little bit sweeter.

Since these are data devices using off the shelf chips sets, the differences are likely in the SW and error handling.

I thought USB Audio standard didn't have error correction. Where are you reading that it does? The problem with USB is that it requires an electrical physical connection which brings its own downside, like grounding and noise issues. This can be mitigated by using matching transformers, which really just masks the problem and could effect fidelity. No perfect solution yet, but USB is the best we have.

Or you can purchase a really high quality used receiver or surround decoder, for Peanuts, and use it as your Digital Preamp with lots of interfaces. 120 db SN is not unusual. Pioneer Elites come to mind, just turn off the speaker outputs using the front panel. You also get standing wave cancelling, auto EQ and other room adjustments in the package. Like me, if you have an old school 2 ch pure analog system, run all of the digital stuff through the surround receiver, and the tape decks, radios and phono through the analog pre amp. Or ditch your analog preamp and use the surround receiver as your preamp, you even get a remote volume control. Most have plenty of analog interface and you can get a great phono pre amp for not much $$$

I thought USB Audio standard didn't have error correction. Where are you reading that it does? I read some of those posts. It was a fun read. Personally I have had similar experiences with DACs. Newer DACs are much harder to tell apart from one another than DACs from say 3 or 4 years ago. That said I will say that it was pretty easy to pick out the Limpizator DAC that I heard when compared to my Peachtree and a Rega DAC. You could do it like 9 out of 10 tries with in the 1st minute of a song without seeing which one was hooked up. Granted it was almost 3 times the price of the Rega but the difference was there. That being said I pretty much agree that most DACs that I have heard between 500 and say 1500 sound incredibly similar and are hard to tell apart from one another. None of the DACs they tested were ladder DACs though, if I remember right. CRC ARQ = error correction. in this case based on timers and windows for receiving the ACK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Data_packets Data packetsA data packet consists of the PID followed by 0–1,024 bytes of data payload (up to 1,024 bytes for high-speed devices, up to 64 bytes for full-speed devices, and at most eight bytes for low-speed devices),[135] and a 16-bit CRC. There are two basic forms of data packet, DATA0 and DATA1. A data packet must always be preceded by an address token, and is usually followed by a handshake token from the receiver back to the transmitter. The two packet types provide the 1-bit sequence number required by Stop-and-wait ARQ. If a USB host does not receive a response (such as an ACK) for data it has transmitted, it does not know if the data was received or not; the data might have been lost in transit, or it might have been received but the handshake response was lost. To solve this problem, the device keeps track of the type of DATAx packet it last accepted. If it receives another DATAx packet of the same type, it is acknowledged but ignored as a duplicate. Only a DATAx packet of the opposite type is actually received. If the data is corrupted while transmitted or received, the CRC check fails. When this happens, the receiver does not generate an ACK, which makes the sender resend the packet.[136] When a device is reset with a SETUP packet, it expects an 8-byte DATA0 packet next. USB 2.0 added DATA2 and MDATA packet types as well. They are used only by high-bandwidth devices doing high-bandwidth isochronous transfers that must transfer more than 1024 bits per 125 µs microframe (8,192 kB/s). http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/ This is the source document for the protocol, or at least it appears to be. I didn't bother to read it but in the past did look over the protocol stacks to see what is in there.

Their test not mine, I always go for a bench test, in this case walking the frequencies up and down the scales, multi-frequencies and various wave forms etc....... I'm sure this is what the Engineers do in the labs, usually it's the error handling that separates the men from the boys with the better products. My quick test is a female voice and piano from a known recording, if they sound natural that is a good start. Without bench tests it's all subjective.

Much of this is done for setting loudspeaker delays automatically using Audyssey and YPAO, etc. using exactly the same techniques. All we're doing is using the technique for single loudspeakers, and all you really need to buy is a calibrated USB microphone, a microphone stand, and an active crossover. You probably already have a laptop or desktop computer. Chris, thanks for sharing your expertise. In order to introduce delay, does the active crossover digitize the signal and use data buffers, then reconvert to analog? On the highly regarded JBL studio monitors of old, all of the drivers appear to be lined up exactly, does this eliminate the phase issue?

If memory serves me correctly, some of the guys over on the HeadFI forum brought in 4-5 top DACS with each top chip set, perhaps 20 units in all. What they discovered is that they couldn't tell them apart in the $500 and up range, which is what they tested. The conclusion is that all of the chip makers and DAC makers have ironed out the kinks in the products. DACs are data devices not unlike a packet switch with many or all of the same issues that have to be managed. Tosslink could have been great, but the implementation was poor leading to errors with no correction like USB offers. Protocols without CRC ARQ simply drop the data or predict what it might have been, you also have buffer overflows and the data is flushed. USB is a real data protocol and included CRC ARQ, so errors are noticed and the packet is re-transmitted to match the check sums. The fundamental challenge with digital source is GIGO, and there is a lot of garbage including musicians who can't play their instruments and previously good sounding recording that have the noise boosted and the peaks clipped during the "Digital Remaster" butchering job. Quantization Error, compression algorithms, predictive decoding, low bit rates, psycho-acoustics and Loudness Wars are but a few of the problems that become noticeable as a system becomes more clear and accurate. CDs have about half of the information on them that a vinyl record has. IMHO the best sound is from DTS Master, most of which are still at CD word size and bit rates. DTS 24x96 is the clear winner when you can get it. One thing I have noticed is that you have to roll off the high frequencies with digital, my manual on my Pioneer Elite Receiver even talks about the problem and has a setting for managing the roll off with a GUI.

Last year I had a friend over to listen to my gear MAC + LaScala. He is a professional musician who has played A list and performed in large arenas, he is also a voice over for ads you have seen and is a voice and piano teacher. He impression listening to George Winston was that my rig sounded exactly like sitting on the bench of a grand piano when you are playing the instrument. Where the mic is positioned does effect the recording. Anyway, the reproduction blew him away, he is no Winston but did buy December on vinyl and Cd after leaving my house. Female voice is also hard to reproduce, and easy to know if it's natural. Ronstadt Skylark is always a good fast test for a system even though she likes the reverb. Noemi Wolfs, formerly Hooverphonic, is always a good test, I have to figure out how to download this one since it's not available for purchase. My Keyboard friend believes both the piano player and Wolfs are A list, which in fact they are. Pretty sure Piano requires lots of ready power reserves with vertical rises and decays. Sorry I cannot agree. A stereo system no matter how advanced and hi end, cannot reproduce the sound and presence of a real piano. The combination of percussive qualities and the natural decay of notes are apparently too complex for reproduction. I'm sure your friend is a fabulous musician but I am also sure he is mistaken and perhaps inclined to hyperbole. No I am not a professional musician but I did make a living as a piano technician - fancy name for a piano tuner. I tuned and rebuilt pianos so I know and feel what a real piano delivers. My current personal piano is a 6'10" schimmel - and no stereo can reproduce its sound. I would say the same about any other acoustic instrument. It is a complete leap of faith to think that you are listening to anything close to the real thing - no matter how advanced or expensive your system is. To add to the issue.... What we are trying to reproduce or think we are reproducing for the most part never actually was performed. George Gershwin piano rolls not withstanding ! (Btw great performances and pretty cool to be able to hear his interpretation of his works! ) Please read " Perfecting Sound Forever" by Greg Milner for more insight into the recording arts and exactly what your system is reproducing. Hint - it's not real performances! Josh It would be fun to record a piano in studio, and play back scales, then go back and forth with good studio monitors.

Tile floor will make the acoustics difficult at best. Can you get some really hard pine 2x10 planks, have the lumber yard plane them or do it on site, and screw them to the floor using wooden pegs to cover the holes, old school as in 1600s but highly effective. Once down, it can be stained then use a penetrating urethane, it will be hard as nails.

My two cents 1. People absorb a lot of sound 2. Stereo that sounds good given the shape, variable loading and distances would be a tough one. 3. Maintaining a uniform quality sound at reasonable to low volumes to allow conversation I would purchase 4 excellent condition Heresy 2s or 3s, but they have to be the same models for voicing. Mount them on the long wall, and space the first one at least 5 feet off the corner so it doesn't boom compared to the others. Run the speakers in mono, hi fi isn't going to happen in the space with the wall mounts Obtain slant risers from Crites and mount them to angle the speakers downward, find a way to fasten the speakers to the wall, perhaps a very sturdy picture hanging loop on the rear and wire it to the wall with picture wire. Once satisfied drive some screws through the bottom of the shelf into the slant riser. Mount the black foam studio type noise damping panels on the ceilings, maybe even some in the corners, it will make the bar more pleasant even for ordinary conversations without the music on. Pretty sure Guitar Center sells these. On the wall opposite the speakers, you can make your own sound damping panels with wood frames and high density foam, 1 inch thick seems to be the norm. You can also purchase commercial panels. I would look around for some county looking fabric to cover the foam and panels with. You may have to back the foam with something for it to be glued to .......quarter inch plywood would work. An alternative to panels is thick rugs hung on the walls, perhaps county looking or the good quality fake Persians they sell at the big box stores. Put it over you mouth and try yelling through it. Books and heavy curtains are great, but perhaps not in a bar. Find yourself a decent amp or receiver that can power two pairs of speakers in mono. I like Yamaha and there is lots of gear out there. An MX-800 Yammy amp would be the best audio most of your customers will ever hear. Make sure it's well vented perhaps a fan on top. Good Yamaha used pre-amp to match it. Spend a few hundred to have a tech go through the gear before you put it into service, Deltronics in Woodridge is just off of the highway 355. If you want to dive to Chicago I can show you my gear, actually Naperville. Once you have things up and running, you can afford a used pair of LaScalas to leave up on your stage and spin your own records one or two nights a week, the best stereo most of your customers will ever hear. Get a 30-40 Watt Class A tube amp to drive them. Emotiva makes a nice phono pre amp for very little money.

LaScalas with smoked glass, don't use the dots or the felt. Previously I used felt, the people who cut the glass tops for my other furniture to match told me not to use the clear dots of felt??? They told me both stain the underlying wood, I didn't see any stains on my LaScalas but took their advice anyway. If I had to use one, I would use the felt dots since they seem less likely to bleed into the wood, they didn't on mine after 20 years. Smoked is hot, just like the Belle pic, clear I wouldn't spend the money.

Last year I had a friend over to listen to my gear MAC + LaScala. He is a professional musician who has played A list and performed in large arenas, he is also a voice over for ads you have seen and is a voice and piano teacher. He impression listening to George Winston was that my rig sounded exactly like sitting on the bench of a grand piano when you are playing the instrument. Where the mic is positioned does effect the recording. Anyway, the reproduction blew him away, he is no Winston but did buy December on vinyl and Cd after leaving my house. Female voice is also hard to reproduce, and easy to know if it's natural. Ronstadt Skylark is always a good fast test for a system even though she likes the reverb. Noemi Wolfs, formerly Hooverphonic, is always a good test, I have to figure out how to download this one since it's not available for purchase. My Keyboard friend believes both the piano player and Wolfs are A list, which in fact they are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Bs09twUmg&index=6&list=PLgugWBANrQyU39SWyIM6sCIJWo-A3GBlD Pretty sure Piano requires lots of ready power reserves with vertical rises and decays.