Audible Nectar

The Outlaw 950 will not be upgradeable - at least by the user. I believe this is a major reason the unit has the delays - it will need to be bug free when Outlaw begins shipping. I realize some may see this as a disadvantage. I'm not worried about it. The 950 will do everything that I require in my HT (and then some). If the unit becomes too dated in a few years, I can sell it or use it in another system, and replace it. Many who are tired of waiting for the Outlaw, or are dissatisfied with the features/controls of the 950, are opting for units in the $2000-3000 price range (which tells me the expectation of sound quality from the 950, which is confirmed by the beta testers). I don't have that much for a pre/pro - and I can get the latest and greatest in a few years, and still only be out $899 now. Even if I spent bigger bucks now on a pre/pro, that's still no guarantee that it would not need replacing in a few years too - depending on where HT goes in the next few years. This piece, despite some shortcomings, appears to be worth every penny of the $899 pricetag. It may be short on some features, but it places the focus on clean sound - which I deem more important. We'll see the comments when the units begin shipping - and if no problems exist, it will be in my rack. Others will need to decide if the additional cost of other units justifies the price. Pre/pro selection really challenges the process of cost/benefit analysis! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

boa - what pre/pros are you recommending? How much do they cost? How are "upgrades" done? At $899, the Outlaw would still be tough to beat against the $2000-3000 pre/pros (which seem to be the majority of those "upgradeable" pre/pros right now). What manufacturers fall into the "easily upgradeable/company that will follow through" category? ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Ears - that's why I bought it, well worth the money, comparable to ATI. I checked out both, and it didn't make sense for me to spend the extra on the ATI 2505 (double the cost of the Outlaw 750) - especially with the Cornwalls/Academy. I didn't need the extra power, so the 750 was the logical choice for me. I am very satisfied with it. It is obvious on close inspection and investigation that they are "brothers" so to speak. Given that they are built in the same factory, with similar arrangements of like components, and the similarities in sound, the Outlaw seemed like a bargain - and it is. If someone is looking for SS home theatre amplification, it's hard to find more bang for the buck. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Best center channels in order of preference: 1. A single Cornwall. Up to 75% of the sound comes from the center channel. Not usually feasible due to placement issues, but sonically the best option. Ideally, the front soundstage will have three identical speakers across the front - so that the panning of sounds across the front occurs seamlessly. 2. Academy. This is what I use, since I don't have room for a Cornwall. It is magnetically shielded. Very hard to find, and when you do find them, the asking price can be hefty - often more than the $400 price when new. 2a. Heresy - would also work very well as a center. Larger than the Academy, but still a Heritage. For rears, you can go with another set of Cornwalls, if you have room. Again, ideally, all 5 of the speakers in a 5.1 discrete audio system will be the same. If the Cornwalls are not an option, go with Heritage models - the floorstanding Chorus or Chorus II, or Forte or Forte II work fine. Heresys would make fine surrounds as well if you are looking for something smaller. Hope this helps! Dave ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

If the 755 is anything like the 750, it will be a winner. I am surprised that the 750 was redone before the 1050 - which is due to be reworked with more up to date features. I am waiting for the 950 pre/pro, and plan to use it in a 5.1 configuration. I wouldn't discount it just because you are not going 7.1 - the word from the beta testers says that this unit sonically outperforms units 2 to 3 times it's price. The feature set on the 950 may not suit everyone (and few pre/pros will) but looks to be another "knockout" for the Outlaws. Regarding the ATI/Outlaw similarities - this is a review posted to the audioreview.com site by a poster named "bigwally"; it explains the similarities, with his comments on the 750. "Summary: First, I'd like to clear up a few points on the issue of the Outlaw 750 vs. the ATI 1505. Both represent tremendous value, but their differences are not as previously reported. In fact, they are so similar as to defy differentiation by any but the most opinionated criteria. 1. The Outlaw 750 is NOT built by ATI. Both amps were designed by their respective sellers, and the assembly in each case is subcontracted to the same 3rd party manufacturer (not a name that anyone would recognize) in Southern California, who also provides assembly for 6 other "manufacturers". This practice is prevalent, and encompasses the "high end" as well. (Nice thing about this age of the internet, everyone is naked!) 2. The ATI has 2 more output devices per channel than the Outlaw. (Both use the same Toshiba bi-polar transistors). With everything else being equal, more current might be available in the case of the ATI, but current also depends on the design of the pre-drive stage circuitry. For those of us not using humongous true ribbon Maggie, or electrostat speakers, it's a non-issue. Also, both amps use the same large, high quality power caps from Panasonic, which contribute to the prodigious headroom of these units. As far as sonic quality goes, the merits of using more output transistors beyond basic electrical needs is akin to the debates over speaker cables. 3. The ATI uses a larger toroidal transformer, but this is a non-issue as well. When it comes to rated wattage with all five channels driven, the Outlaw 750 slightly edges the ATI 1505. Apparently, either transformer is quite capable of supplying what's needed to the voltage rails, so it's overkill in either case. As it should be. 4. ATI claims to value match their output transistors, but Outlaw does in fact buy their transistors in matched and labeled pairs. Different approach(?), same results. If you are in the market for a great 5-channel amp, you can't go wrong with the Outlaw 750. To my ears, it doesn't color the sound in anyway, and has tons of power in reserve for transient responses. With my 8 ohm speakers this amp is overkill, and I have no further concerns toward distortion. My only fear now is "bottoming out" my bass drivers. I bought this amp with the thought of eventually upgrading to box speakers which are a 4 ohm design. I'm quite sure that it will serve them very well. Highly recommended. Strengths: Great value, and proof that you don't always get what you pay for. Sometimes, you get more. Weaknesses: Not as pretty as some of the competition. Similar Products Used: For home audio, I've used amps by SAE and Yamaha. As a musician, I've owned amps in this class built by Crown, BGW, and Mackie. After much time spent comparing specs and reviews for 5-channel HT amps, (Golden Theater, ATI, Parasound, B&K...) I came to the conclusion that Outlaw Audio offers the very best value with little or no compromise." ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

It's interesting that the couple who sold me my Cornwall II's replaced them with a set of Bose Acoutimass. He knew that they would not sound as good (he admitted as such). However, they lived in a small dwelling, and wanted the space back. That's powerful marketing to convince a Klipsch owner to switch to the Bose. I sold Bose back when I sold audio, and I do understand the allure of them to the average joe, who isn't that picky about his audio. I was fortunate to be able to do A/B demos with Bose against other products - and while revealing the inferiority of the Bose Acoustimass (dollar for dollar sound against other products), this did not hurt Bose sales. The name, the extremely high WAF, and powerful advertising sold the speakers on thier own, with little coaxing from me. People would walk in and simply say "I'll take a set of those". Bose looks good too - which is just as important if not more important, to the average consumer. If a customer was open to the idea of a larger speaker or a different brand of sub/sat kit, and had a more discerning ear, the Bose was not an automatic sale. In fact, those who really spent time listening did not normally choose Bose (especially not the Acoustimass). Dave ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

edster00, I've PMed you.... ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

"Lamp cord is the same as speaker wire?" Functionally, yes. You might want to re-read my reply above (which I edited) to get the rundown on all of your options on speaker wire. If you go with the lamp cord, it is helpful to make sure that you can tell one lead from the other (for positive and negative connection on the speakers and receiver). Look for some distinguishing mark on the cord covering, or in the wire lead itself. Otherwise, you will need to follow the wire leads down the length of the cable after cutting them, to label the pos/neg ends. If you buy "specialty audio cables" such as the Monster Cable, etc. they are labeled (and you can buy it in bulk too) and avoid that minor hassle. Hope this helps, Dave ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

I'm all over it, soundog!!! I've read all pertinent threads about this in the Outlaw Forum, the Home Theatre Forum, and the AVS forum (one thread got pretty ugly - apparently a zealot in the forum got booted). That's why I was thinking that I could get away with hooking up that five channel tube amp to it, because the audio quality of the unit is so highly spoke of. I really like what I am hearing about the 950 so far - can't wait to get one ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

In that scenario, I just use the RF output of the cable box or VCR connected to the antenna on the TV, and tune the TV to channel 3. In this case, you don't have the s-video for broadcast when listening to another source, but it works! I play music frequently when having a ballgame on the TV, and this is my workaround. You can still use the s-video input on the TV when you are listening to what you are watching. You would only lose the s-video when listening to another audio source besides the one you are watching. Hope this helps... Dave ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Just electrical lamp cord. Most electrical sections of home improvement stores will have this, in bulk spools. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Not recommended....go to a local Home Depot or other home improvement store, and get some 12 or 14 ga. zipcord, for a cheap solution to your problem. You can buy in quantity and cut it to length. Then you don't need to sweat the wire ga. problem (should be the same, ideally). Also less risk of a short. You can also go the route of "specialty audio cable" and buy it to length desired, if you want to go that route. You can get the Monster Cable stuff for an average of $1-1.50 per foot, as well as many other specialty cable companies, in all price ranges. I was never a fan of splicing wire for audio purposes. Whenever I get to a point where the wire isn't long enough, I just replace it. Quality and differences in wire have been vigorously debated in this forum, but based on just having solid, usable connections for your system, I would get replacement cables of some type. I use the Monster Cable wire, simply because I can replace it with identical wire when necessary if my needs change (my ears don't detect the differences in wire). It's solid and easy to work with. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! This message has been edited by dndphishin on 02-18-2002 at 12:30 PM

Thanks for both responses, soundog. I've been all over the beta tester reviews on the Home Theater Forum. I am watching all of these comments closely. The initial comments look really promising, especially those from the Lexicon owner. While the 950 appears to have a couple of feature shortcomings (mostly dealing with time delay settings and memory storage of sub levels for different inputs), the unit seems to be a winner in the sound area, where it is most important (super clean!!). I plan to order the 950 (unless more negatives are discovered that would change my mind), but it looks very promising. I am only going 5 channels for now - if I end up with 7 later, I'll likely add the ATI 1502 to get 7 channels (assuming that I stay SS). This will not happen anytime soon - not as long as I am living in my current residence. The tube idea is mostly asking questions...there's been so much talk of tubes, I feel that I may be missing out by not investigating. I want to be sure of the path that I am taking, while I am still in the "building" stage with my HT. I really need to get to one of the Chicago Horn Club listening sessions, to give the horns and tubes a listen. That will answer many of these questions. I've got a good feeling about the 750/950 combo though. If I don't go the tube route, I will then use that money to upgrade the subwoofer setup - I did underpurchase on my sub just a bit. I can put 1300-1500 additional into the tubes, or the sub kit (the SVS CS+ pair is looking good, too). That will get my HT into the world of the "largemouth bass"...... When I get the 950, you can count on a report. Dave ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Danocaster, I feel your plight - I've walked in your shoes (although I was never a high end dealer). I listen to mostly rock and roll, and ever since I first heard the Klipsch line 13 years ago, I was never happy with my system. I finally got the Cornwall IIs from this very board four months ago, and am truly pleased with them. If you are used to the high end softer sounding gear, the Klipsch may be a bit of a temporary shock...those horns really "stick it in yer ears"! Good amplifiers will cut down on the shrillness, many in this forum use tube amps with these speakers with excellent results. A well matched amp/Klipsch combo proves that Klipsch are not just for rock and roll. Either speaker can be made to sound OK in the room - the Chorus and Cornwalls are similar in sound, the Chorus has the smaller footprint. I'm in a 14x17 room, and my Cornwall II's work fine. The room's acoustic response will be a factor, but can be altered if need be. Either choice would be a good one... ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

For the tube gear users who usually breeze by the Home Theater section of the board, I've got a thread going over there with loads of questions, called "Tubes in HT". I would appreciate your responses! Just an attempt to get the attention of the proper minds for the issue at hand. Please reply in the original thread in Home Theatre, for better continuity of the discussion. Thanks!! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm Thanks for posting that, John. I've got lots of questions. This peaks my interest, although it's not feasible right now (I've yet to obtain the oak Fortes or Chorus needed for my two surrounds). However, I'm excited and curious, so I have lots of questions for you tube - a- holics out there... I have one system that must do it all. IOW, it must be great in 2 channel as well as 5 channel - and I cannot allocate space (or funds) on a second system right now. My system as of now... - Outlaw 750 (could be sold for most of the $1100 that I paid for it, to get the 5 channel tube). - Outlaw 950 preamp, when it is released - I can refuse the delivery of the unit when Outlaw calls - before they ship it, if there is a better way to go on a $900 budget, I would like to know about it. Currently using an H/K receiver as pre/pro. - Cornwall IIs as mains - Academy center - Will be Chorus or Forte as surrounds - DVD, VCR, Cable box, Computer sound card So, this amp must be suitable for MY application and musical taste....I like rock and roll mostly, and need the 2 channels to "rock the house" so to speak...105db output is plenty sufficient in 2 channel. I've only got a 14 X 17 listening room - but would like to plan for a larger room in the future - IOW, I want the amp to be "more than enough" (more upgrade proof). I realize that tube watts are not the same as SS watts, and have been following along with the tube threads in an attempt to get educated. Am I asking too much of tube amps for my rock and roll tastes?? (I've asked this before, but I'll ask again, since reinforcing this would really ease my mind about going with a SET amp). I have a subwoofer, and I'm assuming that SS amplification is the way to go for that. So the tubes are only being asked to amplify everything but the low bass, I'm assuming that the tubes will be less "worked" to do what I need them to do. Preamp: Can I effectively use a surround pre/pro such as the Outlaw (or any other clean sounding pre/pro out there) in combination with the tubes? Only having space and funds for one system, going SS on the HT preamp would make life easier. I'm looking at the specs for the AES SE-5 tube amp, which reads - Input Sensitivity: 1V for Full Power Output - Input Impedance: 150Kohms So, what preamps would be desirable to "match" up to the AES SE5? What range of numbers am I looking for in terms of output from the preamp? Oh so many questions! But it's the "fault" of the tube- a - holics for raving about the Klipsch Heritage - SET tube amp combo! So, now that I've seen the AES SE-5 literature, and all of the talk in the forum about tubes, and the wheels in my mind start turning......well, you get the idea. The input of the tube - a -holics would be much appreciated. Can I do this??? Is this 5 channel SET tube amp the key to audio bliss????? ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

According to the tube-a-holics on the forum, the tube gear yields excellent sound with the Heritage classics, especially at low wattage (compared to SS gear). If you are going HT, can tube gear be a part of the equation, without taking out a second mortgage (5 channels minimum)? What about preamps? Are HT preamps available in tubes?? Can tube amps be used effectively with SS preamps, or is it a waste of time trying to mix the two? I ask because I see the recommendations, but to us HT addicts, tubes may not even be an option. I haven't seen a tube HT preamp (and if one exists, it's probably very expensive). Thoughts, anyone?? ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Sell 'em here!! Lots of hungry Klipschers here that will make offers, especially on the Academy. Thanks for letting the board know!! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

Ed said: "Posting notices of excess or sought after Klipsch speakers... or even url's where Klipsch gear can be found has helped a lot of folks on this Forum. And now, with Klipsch buying into the amp market, a whole new era of buy-sell-swap is in the offing." Dave here - This forum was the "golden key" for me and my audio bliss. I found my Cornwall II's here, and when my finances allow, will be posting in search of that pair of oak Chorus. Since Heritage speakers are not available new, this is the logical place to find them. I think about this often - I am soooo thankful that the Klipsch powers that be allow us the privilege to exchange the classics here, or to post other pertinent info. Not to mention the well informed audio minds in this forum - collectively, an audio encyclopedia, of sorts. Ed said: "There was a time when good ole "Bob-understand-the- problem-G" attempted to grant our wishes to have a place on the Forum especially for buy-sell-swap needs... but, alas, the Klipsch legal eagle apparently "torpedoed" that from on high. A strong aftermarket for vintage Klipsch products is a rounding endorsement of the extra value inherent in buying Klipsch products... and a valuable port of entry for newbies to economically stick their toes in the Klipsch waters... and in their "earfull" joy, they grow to embrace support of their local Klipsch dealer." Dave here - This is a very valid point with me, Ed. If Klipsch ever thought for one minute that they lost a potential sale because I bought used Klipsch from this board, they would be wrong. I simply would not settle for less than a Cornwall or Chorus - I did demo the Reference series, but I really wanted the Heritage. I would go to ebay, ads, other used audio sites to find them, if necessary, but I found them here. So, what does Klipsch have to gain from us doing this? Lots of free advertising, for one! Not one person ever listens to my HT without learning about the virtues of Klipsch. All of my friends and family see the Klipsch logo on my gear, and hearing is believing. More than anything, Klipsch wants to spread the good name, and all of us happy Klipsch owners do this free of charge. This results in sales, since most of my friends don't have the patience to buy the used route - they just buy Reference (since they still sound great, and are readily available). Ed said "This Forum does provide the opportunity to read through thousands of posts to find a desired vintage Klipsch... and while appreciated it remains less than ideal. Surely the company we revere that has the engineering minds to build these great speakers and the administrative minds to grow this great company should be able to find legal minds that would allow us to have one little corner of the Forum to post available items... even if the transactions were handled by private email or PM's (which I prefer). Maybe the way to solve the problem is for we the people of the Klipsch Forum initiate a place to handle the buy-sell-swap issues within the Forum. Perhaps the best place to build our sound system architecture is in the Architectural section. It is the least used and veteran Forum posters could refer newbies to the Architectural section for an appropriate thread." Dave here - As long as the powers that be are OK with us doing it on our own, it's a good idea, and the simplicity of it would certainly have benefits. However, I would rather have the haphhazard method we are using now, than to not have the privilege at all. It's kinda fun anyway, hunting for the latest used klipsch offerings - it's kinda like a "treasure hunt"! I would want to get Bob G's blessing first - I would hate to stir up a hornets nest. I do value the privilege as it is now, and hate to lose it!! Just my opinion... Dave ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

It's hard to remember them all (and give them their due)...no disrespect to the forgotten. TBrennan - The Chicago contingent is certainly worthy of mention. To all of the listers out there, spend some time in the Chicago Blues clubs (Buddy Guy's Legends, Kingston Mines, Blues Etc, and many more) to witness what TBrennan's talking about. I've seen more than my share of Buddy Guy and Junior Wells gigs. Mandatory for any rock and roll fan. I'll take a bit of issue on the Clapton opinion though. I'll agree that recent Clapton leaves much to be desired, but the early stuff shreds. Try listening to the sessions disc from the "Derek and the Dominoes" 2 disc special edition. It's all studio jams - no vocals - in 8 to 12 minute segments. Eric and Duane Allman (another one who should have made the list) are unbelievable. Now I realize that tastes are tastes, and that's quite OK if you disagree, but this is the Clapton to which I refer to - the Clapton that I absolutely love. Mike Lindsey - I absolutely agree on the Terry Kath sentiment. His presence in the band has always been the dividing line for me as to my opinion on Chicago. I'm not real fond of the post Kath Chicago material, but the Kath portion of Chicago's career is simply classic, and extremely underrated. mdeneen - It is almost criminal to have forgotten Chuck Berry and Robert Johnson. Without R.J. this discussion would not be taking place. Whoops!! I also agree on the Mark Knopfler opinion, especially when Pick Withers was in Dire Straits. Those two were truly a match made in heaven - See Sultans of Swing for a full understanding. I am admittedly biased towards those who display their craft live. I've seen all of the guitarists on my original list except Harrison, Hendrix, Rhoades, and Zappa. Remember, it's all just opinion, but that's what makes this interesting!!! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

John0392, I am in a similar situation with my HT. I have Cornwall II's as mains with an Academy center, and am currently skimping on the rears with a set of Quintets. I'm here to tell you, it's a no-go. The Quintets "play" - they do work better than nothing - but it's only temporary. I picked up a cheap set on ebay, until I can afford and locate a set of oak Fortes or Chorus. So, the Quintets will stay for now, but they are not what you ultimately want in a system such as yours. Don't be afraid if you can't get everything you want at once. Rome wasn't built in a day. My advice is to stick to your guns on the RB5II's and RC3 center - use something cheap and obtainable for rears until you can get what you really want. Ultimately you will be happier with your system if you get the better speakers now - even if you can't have all of them now - you will be less likely to desire an upgrade down the line. I sold audio for a number of years, and the biggest mistake audio buyers would make is that they "want it all now" - so they settle for less quality in an effort to do so, especially in the speaker purchase. Get the speakers you really want, even if it takes you more time to complete the system. There is no other place in a system that you get more bang for the buck than the speakers. Spend more on them - you won't regret it. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

I prefer the Chorus II's, however, there's nothing wrong with the Fortes. I feel that the Chorus II's are more of what you buy Fortes for - deep, tight bass, crystal clear mids and highs - all around great speakers. Both are great choices - if price, finish, and cabinet size are not an issue, get the Chorus II's. If you choose the Forte II's, that's still a good decision - you should be happy with them. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

I'm using the Outlaw 750 with my Cornwalls/Academy, and find it to be a purchase that I'm very happy with. It's more than I need, but that's the way I like it. It's very clean and neutral, and for high efficiency speakers like Klipsch, an absolute powerhouse (times 5!). The great reviews on this amp don't lie. I highly recommend it. The raves are already rolling in about the new 950 pre/pro that Outlaw has been cookin' up. Four of the five beta testers (who have, until now, been sworn to secrecy) have given big thumbs up to its clean sound, rivaling units two to three times it's $899 price (this has become a pattern with Outlaw). One of the testers owns a Lexicon MC-12 ($8000+) and even he is impressed. I can't wait to get it. If you have yet to select a pre/pro, check it out. ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!

OK, I'll give this one a try. I'm not a guitarist, nor do I play one on TV. First, my "Mount Rushmore" Jerry Garcia Eric Clapton Jimi Hendrix David Gilmour Hall of Fame (in no particular order)...... Robin Trower Frank Zappa B.B. King Jimmy Page Jeff Beck Randy Rhoades Trey Anastasio Edward Van Halen Carlos Santana Stevie Ray Vaughn Pete Townshend Jorma Kaukonen (Jefferson Airplane/Hot Tuna) George Harrison Stephen Stills Best of the Rest Angus Young Joe Satriani Brian May Alex Lifeson Keith Richards Slash Steve Howe Jeff Healy I'm sure I'm missing a few, but it's a good start! ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll! This message has been edited by dndphishin on 02-14-2002 at 02:29 PM

The first beta tester has spoken about the first impressions of the upcoming Outlaw 950. Are any of you Klipschers waiting for this piece? The review is here: http://home.att.net/~rfowkes/950.html ------------------ First we Rock, then we Roll!