RoboKlipsch

Metallic echo is known as "ringing", which is a room mode that is being excited big time and is lingering way too long. This is exactly the kind of thing someone who begins to listen more carefully will notice. You want that ringing gone. Ringing comes from the room, but especially from staircases and anything of that sort. Treatment is not a 1-2-3 thing, it's not difficult but not a super fast process you do in an hour. It could be done over a weekend, but I think it's best to add some panels, see how it sounds and then add some more. Really, at a certain point, being able to measure your room becomes almost necessary -- you can literally SEE the benefit of each panel as it is added...a dip is less of a dip, a peak is less peaked, in some cases it smooths something out completely. Terminology is kind of loose for most people when discussing acoustic panels. When reducing reflections from near sources....i.e. the first reflections from the front speakers bouncing off the side walls, much improvement can be found with simply a 2" panel. But an issue with 2" panels is, they don't absorb a lot of low end, some below 250hz and then not much below 100hz. A 4 inch panel is often called a "broadband panel", because it is just thick enough to begin to absorb bass below 100hz. So all these things are acoustic panels, but only ones that cover the entire spectrum are considered broadband panels, or as some call them, bass traps. It's not truly a bass trap in that it also absorbs the rest of the spectrum. The ringing you hear is reduced or eliminated with any panel 2" thick or thicker. Have a staircase nearby? Snap your fingers on the staircase and hear what ringing really sounds like. That is again, reflection problems. Put a panel on the door and at the bottom, amazing you probably removed all the ringing. BUT, for bass trapping, there is often a lot more panels needed. So for example, you can use the 4" thick panels for first reflections -- it will do what a 2" panel does, but also absorb some of the excess low end bass that is lingering. But there is more to bass traps, when there is an air pocket between the trap and wall, such as corner placed traps, there is an added benefit that the traps go lower. So not only the corners, but for example on my front wall, at the bottom I have 3 bass traps with air pockets...so they stick out at the floor a foot or so, and are angled into the wall. All this does is absorb extra bass as opposed to them being flush against the wall. This can be done almost anywhere in the room. It is very hard, in most rooms, to have too much bass trapping. I have 8 in this theater, along with a dozen or more 2" panels, and it's incredible...but could be more still. So my point is, it's very hard to absorb too much low end. What people sometimes get wrong is they have too many 2" panels in the room, absorbing all the mid and high end, and don't have any bass trapping. What does this do? Think of those waterfall graphs. The high end decays VERY fast with all those 2" panels. So the graph is very short on the right side...but the bass lingers forever seemingly, leaving a mountain on the left side of the graph. The ideal graph is consistent and short. Too short overall is hard to achieve -- too short on PART of the spectrum is what we look to avoid. So if you take that to heart, you'll see that the first few near reflections -- those front speakers and really your back wall, need to be treated with at least 2" panels. That will reduce ringing and also reduce the reflections and improve clarity BIG TIME. But after those first few, it's critical to begin adding bass traps to the room to even out the decay. In fact, most rooms would benefit most from adding a ton of bass traps first...but there is benefit to those first few reflections being absorbed too. So it's a balance. I have ceiling panels. It is more tricky than you think to treat ceilings/floors, it often depends upon the room i.e. what is on the floor? If the floor is hard wood, then yes, some treatment of the ceiling is likely to help, but in that regard, I would caution you want and need to measure those. Sometimes you add a panel and it makes the response and decay worse -- you need to be able to truly see it when dealing with the ceiling. Bass traps and first reflections however (what you should focus on for now), do not need measurements, although it can help. So in your room, I would imagine 1 or 2 panels on the left and right sides, that are placed to block all 3 front speaker reflections -- left, center and right. So the mirror works for each speaker on each side, someone needs to help you and you mark all three center positions for each speaker on each side. Then you determine if one panel, or 2 (or 3) is needed to cover each spot well. Most designs use the panels vertically, but there is no requirement. It is done often so that seating height can vary without losing the absorbption. The back wall, because the couch is close, needs absorption because you will hear the reflection from the front speakers bouncing off the back wall and it will be significant, and noticeable. Again, a panel needs to block the reflection for each seat, so if you have 3 seats, for example in the main area, I would want a panel or panels that clearly absorbs the reflections off the back wall at ear level -- and above and below. So for example you might get away with one or 2 panels back there, or use 3. 2"? Sure is fine, but 4" is better, but sticks out a lot. In the end, you need bass traps, but those first reflections will be equally impressive. It's hard at first to imagine putting in bass traps in a room where you want a lot of bass...but you realize once they are installed that what it does is reduce that ringing....or decay time....in the bass region. By doing so, each note becomes more clear, and disappears when it is supposed to. The bass traps will make people not believe how good your sub system sounds. When you recalibrate after adding panels, the levels usually need to be higher -- it takes more output as the absorbption increaess, but it's a small tradeoff for great sound. So 1st reflections on side walls, first reflections on back wall Bass traps, bass traps, bass traps Then, if you want to go further, measure and you can begin to add more panels that will continue to smooth out the decay times and make it sound better and better. An interesting side effect is that your room will become a quiet room -- not dead, but very quiet. mine is the quietest room in the house. Take a nap in that room once threated you won't believe it. Bass traps are most effective in tri-corners, it absorbs the most bass. Unlike panels for reflections, location of bass traps is not nearly as important. The bass waves are huge, 20, 30 40 feet so they are all over the room. By using the tricorners first (true corners of a room), it absorbs the most, because the most bass builds up in the corners. So floor to ceiling is ideal, but partial is fine too. As you should imagine....if a bass trap is in a corner, it would also be helpful that it is positioned to absorb reflections of higher waves....so either floor to ceiling, or at least floor to high enough to be above ear level -- thus you trap the bass and get benefits from more absorption of reflections. Go this far, and you'll have a theater that rivals the real theaters, and beats the theater every friend you know has, short of those with a dedicated one. Examples are always tricky, and there are many measurements taken, but here's an example of the difference between my upstairs theater, which is lighly calibrated and totally untreated, vs m downstairs theater which is carefully calibrated and close to fully treated. Most important you want the blue bar to be flat, it indicates the decay across the spectrum. Notice how the one up top is not as flat, it actually has a lot of high end that decays slower than the bass in this instance. I can explain it however by also adding that upstairs, it is an open room, so the bass can "escape", while high frequencies which are directional cannot, really. But more importantly, look at the decay times. The top one is actually in the range specified for a good room, .3 to .5s decay time. But the bottom one, as you can see, it highly treated an at that measuring position (they vary a bit, but are simliar), the decay time is just under .2s. So what's the difference? Tight, punchy, awesome theater like sound downstairs.....lighter, airier, brighter music upstairs. Both can play either, but each is specialized for what it does best. The upstairs in fact would still benefit from some acoustic panels, which may happen at some point, but I have resisted the temptation to take over the entire house with my hobby

I went through half of Transformers 1 last night with my kid, I'll go through the whole series with him prepping for the Blu Ray Release in late Sept. Honestly, I watched the first one on cable and turned it off after 30 minutes. They really don't bother to explain who is who, what is what, why, etc, and it's just loud and crazy. But after watching the whole series a few times, there is actually a plot under there and it's kind of fun...but in the end, the sound effects are definitely the highlight. The other interesting thing is, Part 1 is really kind of weak sound-wise...it's good, but when you get to 2,3,4 Bay really went nuts and has a heck of a sound mixer. 2 3 and 4 have incredible scenes. I watched Fury Road last night...not sure I ever watched it on BluRay before, I think I watched on HBO. Night and day, once again, the low end bass is so much more forceful and awesome it's not even a comparison. Once again the blu ray detail....mmmm. That movie could be the best for sound right now, the amount of bass from the vehicles is incredible, as is the story and acting.

It will be a huge leap you will immediately think about buying more

Arguably the best soundtrack in a movie. Plane crash i think i did -15 or -18....its got a very high pitch engine whine...man if u can survive 0 i give you credit. But that movie man....pitt and norton are incredible....

Unbreakable is a good 4star movie and imo the ONLY great movie by Shymalan. A true origin story without supernatural powers....brillant. lol ive seen it 10x but maybe not on my newer systems. Oos call....so many movies are remarkably better w great sound. Flight was excellent too...perhaps deja vu qould be good full surround.

Im in no hurry for home use. I have not been impressed even in the theater.

there are 1x4 panels too. if i have time ill take a pic of mine but yes treating a corner is very key. mirror trick will tell you where u need panels. in your case with the back wall close you will almost def want some there...but understanding bass traps is important to. the final key after early reflections is to reduce the decay time in the bass region. then u get that tight bass of a theater.

I dont think you will observe the bump in spl from colocating the speakers i.e. left and right together +6db. That would be true playing an identical signal only which almost never occurs except in mono music. 2 identical signals close together can theoretically gain 6db i.e. subs but again thats very close together. I have observed closer to 4db for doubling of sources in a normal layout

I'll try to keep the answer short and straightforward -- generally speaking the loudest MOST people will ever listen is REFERENCE, which is a standard developed by the movie industry to actually have standards in theaters. This has translated to home use, and is typically a system's ability to reach 105db peaks (we are ignoring the subwoofers for now). Typically a continuous 85db is the spec in a theater, with 20db bursts to 105db. That's kind of too loud in a home so 75db is reference in a home system with 30db peaks. So it is the same as a theater reference but uses a lower continuous standard in order to make it easier on the ears at home and realistic for a smaller room like a home theater or living room. Most speakers sensitivity is rated at 1 meter away, or roughly that. So if a Klipsch speaker has a sensitivity of 90db, that means at 1 watt -- at 1 meter away -- it has 90db of output. That's obviously a lot. A typical listening distance is maybe 10 feet away, and to make things simple, assume that at that distance, you lose 10db of sensitivity due to the distance. At 1m, a speaker may have a sensitivity of 90db, but when you sit 10 feet away instead of 1m, it is roughly 80db. So the way I look at it is this -- most systems, to achieve what 98% of people would ever listen to, need to be able to reach reference levels at the listening position. So if I am at 10 feet away listening, and 105db is reference...I want a SYSTEM that can output 115dbs total at a distance of 1m...which is what most speakers are spec'd at. So let me do the math for you for the 280s and you can do the rest -- They have a sensitivity of 98db, they are 8ohm At 10 feet away, we lose that 10db, so they are 88db at 10feet away 88db @ 1w 91db @ 2w 94db @ 4w 97db @ 8w 100db @ 16w 103db @ 32w 106db @64w -- refence level 109db @ 128w - would be headroom above reference There you go....at just under 64w your front speakers can play at reference level (105+db @ 10feet) So you want an AVR that can output a true 64w per channel to be able to achieve reference Can your center hit reference? You do the math, start with where the sensitivity is at 1w, then use the above Now what would it mean to have more power than this? It would mean that the system can run a bit cooler, and that you have the ability to play it even louder than reference if you want to. Because reference is related only to movies, some music tracks are recorded rather low, and require reference level or higher in order to get the full sound you may want. So how much power do you need....can be figured quite easily, you have to get into the details a bit to understand it. Will you listen at reference frequently? I doubt it, but some do. It's really, really loud in a home theater. I don't want to get into the details here but many Denons have been tested and actually do output most of what they say they can do. Often you can google the model # and "bench test" and some engineer out there actually took the time to run it through a testing rig that can really measure it my denon 3808 came out almost exactly to what was specified

Videosecu I think on amazon. I have rp160ms on them and r15ms. However i recommend straps too for extra security...cheap easy and look fine

Not sure what words to use to describe this deal but its the steal of the century. So many think 2 woofer center isnt enough this rivals all but the 450c and rc64. Gl w sale should be gone today.

Yes unfortunately. In todays streaming world everything is compressed. Some compression is better than others but even 4k streaming does not match a blu ray for picture or sound. Apple and hbo imo are better than most

man thats great! i love experimenting w new ideas please let us know how it works out! if the 12d can keep up it would be good included....maybe it can? but i would corner load it somewhere i think that is the design to reach say 20hz....might work

Forgot to add Fight Club, one of my all-time favorites and one that few really realize is so good A lot of people love music, a lot love HT, some love both. This movie (I'm throwing it in for a partial watch) is the best combination of both possibly ever. Not that the music is better than other movies but only a few times have soundtracks so closely mirrored the personalities in the movie. IMO one of the very best movies made actually. I dare you, in fact I actually caution you NOT to, try and watch the plane crash scene at full reference. I have not allowed myself to do it yet. I'm not afraid at all for the system itself, but me. It's beyond frightening and ear-shattering. I still consider it one of the most impressive HT moments. The entire movie however has a running Chemical Brothers soundtrack that is incredible in the right room.

my first thought is you are listening to music? you cant buy fronts with sensitivity much higher. i would guess the source material is low....is this an issue w movies?

Ive read bench tests on my Denon model and it doess actually output most of what it claims 170watts is plenty imo. even if it is 100 it should pass reference no prob.

Awesome! When I mentioned Transformers, I was actually thinking of the intro with the Stars, my young son loves that and laughs every time. Really, every action movie has some great sweeping surround, it's just not usually as simple as put in X and play track Y, but there are some of those. WOW is one of the very best for surround sound, in fact really subwoofers even moreso, one of my top hits i've been collecting the "best" of surround sound home theater in blu-ray form for many months now all i can tell you is a friend endlessly argues (with no backup at all) that he thinks streaming is as good as blu-ray. I laugh and remind him, um yeah but you still are using old school connections that DON'T EVEN ALLOW for Master Audio HD tracks...I think he is using the S-cable still. Is that what they're called I don't even remember it's so outdated....Blu-Ray beats any and all broadcast forms imo, even 4K. I have a 4K TV and high end broadcast, and even streaming 4k from Netflix or Amazon doesn't cut it. Blu-Ray is SUPERIOR to that still imo. Bottom line is COMPRESSION, there is no way they can ever send us all the data in a blu-ray streaming and do so for everyone across the country at a reasonable cost....thus they compress the SXXX out of everything and often make it suck. As one friend here at the forum puts it, they even go so far as to lop off the top and bottom end of many movies....you'll "know" what a movie should sound like, put on your system and laugh and say wait are the subs on? Yes? Oh it's another sxxx recording. Truth is...as you are learning (and I am too, very much) that what you heard BEFORE was sxxx, not now. Now the quality of your playback is good enough that you can tell when something sucks, or is subpar. Even worse, as someone growing up in the 80's and 90's, most music then and before was recorded rather poorly....and thus, when you play it back in your system, it may kind of suck! And then you'll hear a remastered version in 5.1 or 7.1 and you'll freak going....ah my system is just fine it's the recording that sucks. That whole concept of moving up the quality of your playback is very, very exciting and something few people understand or bother to do. People watch what, on average 4+ hours of TV a day but don't bother to calibrate the sound...or the picture? Yuck. Lazy and uninformed.... I've owned Gravity for a while on blu-ray and no matter what else you do, for $9 on Amazon, get it, it's the best pinpoint sound recording to date imo. However having said that, the sound quality is still decent enough coming through cable or streaming to get the effect. I saw Gravity in the IMAX theater in 3D, a very empty theater (the only way I do it), and then I watched it at home on cable, then on blu-ray multiple times, I know that track! -- In the theater, IMAX tuned as good as can be, me sitting in the middle. The sound in a theater is massive, much more powerful sounding in a big theater. But that first 20 minutes consists of mostly talk, with some music from Clooney's radio. That intro starts it, where there's a sizzling shimmering tone that is the same tone they use later when the ISS is breaking up. First remember this -- although you may have a 7.1 system, and the theater may have also, really the way these are recorded is to sound like a perfect 5.1 system, even if using 7.1. So there were really only 4 places to listen to (this is all, non-Atmos mind you) -- front left, front right, back left, and back right. Now, I'm talking sitting probably 30 or 40 feet from the back surrounds. YET during the movie, it sounded like someone in the row behind me was talking, almost whispering directly in my ear. THAT good. And at home it is the same. 4 precise points, although believe it or not, the back left is not used much in this instance, has much to do with the position of the shuttle, earth and our viewpoint. Believe it or not -- you likely wouldn't know this -- that first 12 minutes or so right up until the ISS explodes is actually ONE CONTINUOUS SHOT. It wasn't actually shot that way of course, but watch it again and you'll see it...they spent I think 3 years filming this movie and that intro was the Oscar winner. NOW...to complicate it further, I believe that Gravity was one of the first Atmos movies and certainly the first to win an Oscar. So with an Atmos system, there is even more to consider as the height was carefully controlled in this movie relative to the viewing. Anyway...get the blu-ray already! You've been thinking about that too long, if you don't have Amazon Prime let me know I'll send you a copy and you can decide if it's worth sending me $9 I found the first four transformer movies on ebay for I think $16 total....bought a "set" that had 3 of the 4 for $12...and had happened somehow to buy the other one for $4 elsewhere before that, making a complete set. That's how to get sets or larger lots of blurays...get them on ebay. But singles are often as cheap on amazon when shipping is included. A few other top action titles that show off surround: > Edge of Tomorrow > Twister > Battleship > Mad Max Fury Road > For an interesting and cheap 7.1 "music" blu-ray, the Doors Movie. Amazing to hear those older songs mastered into 7.1 > 300 > Olympus has Fallen / London has Fallen > Kill Bill Vol 1 and 2 Plenty more if you want recommendations. As for DTS vs Dolby, they are two COMPANIES, and have built differing codecs for how their sound is coded and then decoded. In general, DTS was WAY better years ago, and today imo is still a bit better. So given the choice, DTS is a slightly better coding, but when it comes to Master Audio, I doubt there's much difference you can hear, both are uncompressed. OK the ceiling....all the answers are already here in this forum. Search a bit or ask about it, but each question you have is a thread here that's been discussed recently. Many people asking about what is needed for Atmos -- you need to google the manual and read it - I have, and I doubt I'll ever get it! But reading it told me the answers to most of what you're asking. 14 foot ceiling is their ideal spec, but it works in most ceilings. In ceiling is considered by those discussing it here (and MLO, who sells it) to be superior for effect. Most have said that 2 speakers for Atmos is not enough, you want more. 4 perhaps. As I had mentioned before, make sure if SOUNDPROOFING that it will achieve the desired effect. Sound control within the room to sound good is easy...soundproofing to keep sound from leaving the room is much, much more difficult and expensive, but is done frequently. Believe it or not -- the very best in surround sound still comes from games. XBOX or PS4 will demonstrate this well, but omg some games the sound is insanely impressive, and immersive. Most movies assume the viewer is looking at the screen and the action...some games do too. But others assume more that you are "in" the game, so that where you sit is in the battlefield, or in the environment. This causes there to be much more obvious and severe surround sound that can be absolutely astounding. Battlefield, Call of Duty, Steep, Far Cry, Grand Theft Auto are but a few of the truly remarkable ones. You know your surround sound is working well when you pause it, or crinckle your ear thinking either someone is calling you or you heard a sound elsewhere in the house..and really it was in the recording. Getting "fooled" is the very best compliment you can give your system. Same goes for a sub and integration....I blindfold someone and bring them into either theater and play anything they want, they could never, ever tell where the subs are, not even close. Really well integrated systems are seamless and amazing. You're already there my friend! What is your real name....let me know or PM me, I'm curious...and my name is Rob

UPDATE PLEASE! You've been quiet for over a week I know that means you're deep into it and loving every minute.....

MLO so on the money you'll get that 15 and like it better, and find if you measure that the 12 + 15 = somewhere in between in output to get even better low end output, replacing the 12 with another 15 will give you a better low end but in the meantime -- it's a matter of placement I would find the best place in the room and put the new 15 there I would find any and all corners and test the 12 in the corners along with the 15 in it's spot The idea I would have then is the 15 can do it's magic anywhere, but the 12 needs help at the bottom end to keep up by corner loading that 12, it will add to it's lower end and make it closer in capability to the 15 when blending them, the level of the 12 can be adjusted to compliment the 15 and make sure response is as flat as possible then when you get a 2nd 15 to replace the 12 (or add to it!), you have more flexible placement options when combining 2 subs of different capabilities....you CAN get a matched almost identical output but it is very hard to do, you often end up with an "average" of the 2 placement is always the key with the subs, good luck

Exciting change good luck and let us know! At the highest end of HT, dudes setup subs that only play from a crossover of 40hz and down. The benefits are that the sub can be maximized for this and the mains left to do their thing the other benefit though is at a crossover of 40hz, it isn't playing anything above 60hz and will be impossible to locate so you got that sweet corner loading that sub and it's only being asked to do the low end, you can optimize the boost and limits such that it's an infransonic BEAST The RF83s can keep up with anything, so man I'm telling you it might not be perfect but I would really encourage you to try it. leave out the 12D entirely, it couldn't really be a part of this idea as it can't play low enough with authority and would overwhelm the 30-40hz range. But I'm curious......:) Khorns are a big change, will be interested to hear your thoughts on music

No matter what receiver you get, it will always be somewhat limited in how much current it can send to all the speakers So from that perspective, a change will not be likely to change the power output to the speakers But that Denon would give you the 7 speakers you want, and also Audyssey XT32, which be an improvement in room correction The sensitivity of the speakers you have is so high that I'm not even sure you'll want external amplification *** How big your room is, and how loud you listen can help determine this *** With external amplification I have found the dynamic changes are more powerful, the attack is stronger But let's say in your room at the volume you listen you only are using 25w a channel anyway...there may be a much better way to upgrade More info, we can figure it out for sure

i realize this is an old thread....floors often have carpet and when they do...ceiling treatment is usually minimal or none if the floor is hard then treating the ceiling is key. many recording studios have hard floors and ceiling panels.

excellent advice all around the true bottom line is that a room really has to be measured to know for sure the best crossover. listening will definitely get you close or a good one though with a measurement, it quickly becomes apparent, especially in that 50-100hz range, where the crossover should likely be most rooms have big dips in response no matter what the speakers can do, due to the room itself often there is a big dip in that 50-100 range somewhere, and it helps define where to set the crossover many have a huge dip at 70-80hz due to the room dimensions and seating...in those cases although the folks cross at 80hz, 100 would be better without a measurement, listen to the same music that contains some consistent bass lines and carefully listen to 60-80-100-120 you will hear distinct "strong" and "weak" areas depending upon that crossover for HT, the right crossover provides a flat response, but when someone is using a setup mostly for music, it can be a preference vs reference i.e. many like a big semi-bloated bass or mid-bass with music, it mostly has to do with the recordings themselves, not our speakers another factor is where those speakers are...if the surrounds for example are used as mains and mounted on the front wall, they will have massive, bloated mid-bass which can be difficult to reduce without an autocorrection system...if they were freestanding 3 feet from the walls, they would likely have very little mid-bass....it really is dependent upon the particular setup, and in the end then requires some experimentation or measurement

Martycube is a perfect choice.

100 or 120 should be goos even 150 if it sounds better.