how can i tell if my 'timbre' matches?

[jwatson364]

how can i tell if my center speaker matches the timbre of my fronts?

i have icon v35, but im not in luv with the matching center and i wanted the c3 from synergy series since its on sale and has much higher db...

[Eskimo1]

Typically, the timbre-matching speakers are those from the same line, i.e. the Icon line. dB sensitivity isn't a measure at all of how a speaker will sound.

Timbre-matched basically just means that something played through the center will sound the same as it will being played through the L&R. None of the "normal" specs can tell you if it will timbre-matc, so it's a safe bet to stick with something in the same product line..

[Chris A]

how can i tell if my center speaker matches the timbre of my fronts?

i have icon v35, but im not in luv with the matching center and i wanted the c3 from synergy series since its on sale and has much higher db...

Interesting question. I'd personally like to get consensus on the definition of "speaker timbre" first: one thing that you might ask is why a speaker has a particular "sound" to it at all, assuming that you are trying to not have coloration in reproduction. Or is that question too hard?

I've noticed that many of the old hands around here tend to avoid these questions...but it is a good question. I think the concept thrives because no one tries to define it very well. I've got an answer, but you may not like it since it might involve some pretty controversial remarks. However, the answer "when it comes from the same line of speakers", to me at least just doesn't compute. It's like saying God plays physics with speaker manufacturers (I don't think he does...). Another way of saying it is that the speaker, out of the box with no EQ, sounds like other speakers that you've already bought with no EQ. (Catch my drift?) I think that you can do EQ on particular speakers (hopefully using a parametric equalizer) to help them sound like other speakers.

Now, wasn't that easy? Do you like that answer?

Well another discussion involves the dispersion of sound output from the drivers into the room where you are using them. A Bose 901 probably doesn't sound like any Klipsch speaker (if you catch my drift once more). If you look at the type of midrange-tweeter arrangement, you might have a point about "timbre" if the midrange-tweeters are of significantly different configuration.

Another argument involves the type of bass bin configuration. If you have bass reflex vs. an acoustic suspension vs. a horn-loaded acoustic suspension, then you'll probably hear the difference out of the box, no EQ, etc. In fact, EQ probably won't help much at all since the dynamic response of the bass driver subsystem is different than your other speakers.

Bottom line: look at the drivers and the boxes first--if similar, try it. If not, think about something else. If you are very picky, then plant the same speaker models all the way around you.

BTW: Speaker sensitivity can be an issue, but usually if the two types of speakers are just a few dBs apart, the other factors above probably play a stronger role. (However, if speakers are more than just a few dB apart, then the drivers and boxes are probably significantly different.)

Chris

[dtel]

What about if you played something like pink or white noise through all the speakers, you would hear a difference if something didn't match, easier than with music ? With white noise a difference should stand out, if you hear a difference with music or a movie you have no way to know if it's the recording.

[Chris A]

To me, that is a lot like the comments I made on EQ above, so I would have to at least partially agree. I know that when I fire up my RC-62 center channel with pink noise, it sure doesn't sound like my Jubes on either side. However, when I did my EQ exercise a while back (dtel: you remember that dialogue, right?) my Jubes sounded a LOT like my RC-62.

Isn't that interesting?

(However, I largly reverted back to Roy's EQ settings for the K69/K402 (especially in the region of 1-8 KHz), but I stayed with my lf changes, because my room acoustics influence that area so much, and remember that the Klipsch chamber really isn't that good below about 150 Hz as an anechoic chamber.)

Chris

[jacksonbart]

check the grain.

[CECAA850]

What about if you played something like pink or white noise through all the speakers, you would hear a difference if something didn't match, easier than with music ? With white noise a difference should stand out, if you hear a difference with music or a movie you have no way to know if it's the recording.

Exactly. That's a dead giveaway on timbre matching. A mismatched speaker will stand out like a sore thumb. Normally, 2 speakers with the same tweeters and possibly mids would be timbre matched.

[CECAA850]

I also subscribe to the notion that the lower the octave played, the less critical timbre matching is. That's why people don't hesitate to mix match speaker and sub brands.

[peshewah]

Jacksonbart, your one of a kind. If I see your name on a thread I always read it. You crack me up.

[dtel]

I do remember the EQ exercise, it looks really strange to see a few people doing that, but it does work. Strange how a speaker can sound different from a different angle, there are so many different things going on that affect each other to make changes.

My son in law wanted to just throw some drivers in a box and try to build a speaker. He asked me questions trying to figure it out, and i finally told him don't waist your time there are so many things to consider, I don't want to attempt it. Buy something that has been designed by someone who knows, thats NOT me.

[Chris A]

Exactly. That's a dead giveaway on timbre matching. A mismatched speaker will stand out like a sore thumb. Normally, 2 speakers with the same tweeters and possibly mids would be timbre matched.

So is that your definition of "timbre"?

[CECAA850]

Exactly. That's a dead giveaway on timbre matching. A mismatched speaker will stand out like a sore thumb. Normally, 2 speakers with the same tweeters and possibly mids would be timbre matched.

So is that your definition of "timbre"?

Never really thought about a "definition" before. I guess, to me, it would be 3 front speakers that have same the same tonal quality and each one reproduce sound as if they were from the exact same speaker model.

[SWL]

What about if you played something like pink or white noise through all the speakers,

So, when you run through the test tones on your receiver......are they considered "Pink Noise"?

Or do you have to get a disk to play it through your system?

[dtel]

I think you have it..." tonal quality " the same tone reproduced from different speakers ?

[Chris A]

Never really thought about a "definition" before. I guess, to me, it would be 3 front speakers that have same the same tonal quality and each one reproduce sound as if they were from the exact same speaker model.

The issue I have is that the "pink noise" definition would say that two speakers would have different timbres if one had more bass extention, but identical midranges/tweeters. I don't think that definition would work for my idea of "timbre". In that, I think the concept remains undefined, or it is only a way of saying that two speakers are either identical or not, and basically nothing in between those two states.

Chris

[CECAA850]

I'll give you an example of what I've experienced for what it's worth. Bear in mind that there's nothing at all scientific about my findings. When I was building the HT in my living room I went through several upgrades. I started with some Reference 35 series, had some 5 series in there and ended up with all 7 series. Throughout the process I had several combinations of the 35, 5 and 7 series mixed together. Everytime I would swap any speaker out I would calibrate with white (pink?) noise. Once I had the RC-35 with the RF-7's. The difference in sound was incredible. For lack of a better description it sounded like the center channel was sitting in a box, even when calibrated to the same SPL as the L and R. When I calibrated the RF-7's with the RC-7, the sound was virtually identical. The RF-7's have much better bass extension than the RC-7 but when calibrating with the receivers test noise or a calibration disc like Avia, they sound like the same speaker. The difference was noticeable when you watched movies also.

Carl

[Chris A]

Okay, I'll go with that definition, since it coincides with my pre-existing biases [] but note that the original question was "how do I know when my center speaker matches the timbre of my fronts..." The problem is that the definition we have here is a bit on the "tautological" side, i.e., "...the speakers' timbre matches when their timbres match..." []

I was trying to answer jwatson364's question, but I think I'm back at square one...

Chris [:$]

[carbon summit]

I've searched the forum a few times and found reference to a timbre matching chart or matrix but the internet link is always dead.

Does such a chart exist? It would be nice for newbies like me to know what would work well together. Something from Klipsch, not opinions from different people going different directions, but something solid to work with.

[Eskimo1]

Does such a chart exist? It would be nice for newbies like me to know what would work well together. Something from Klipsch, not opinions from different people going different directions, but something solid to work with.

When you view a speaker on the website, there are "related products", and those would be the ones that Klipsch feels will Timbre-match - I haven't seen any other chart..

Your previous post about the white noise sounding the same is a good one... I was having a hard time describing it..

[carbon summit]

Does such a chart exist? It would be nice for newbies like me to know what would work well together. Something from Klipsch, not opinions from different people going different directions, but something solid to work with.

When you view a speaker on the website, there are "related products", and those would be the ones that Klipsch feels will Timbre-match - I haven't seen any other chart..

I know I can look at the related products on the Klipsch website but that seems to be only at the time that speaker was made. I'm guessing and could be wrong that newer speakers would timbre match with older ones and that fact isn't reflected with the related products suggestions. I guess I'm taking the easy way out by keeping my HT a family. I've got Forte IIs and front with a Academy at center and am looking for Forte IIs or Quartets for my rears. But I have to wonder if some of the new stuff I see for sale all the time on Craigs List would work just fine for my rear channels. Just a thought.