'09 Camry costs?

[Rockets]

re: Also what do we need to defend ourselves from?

Maybe, I read more into your comment than what was there. So this is just an assumption on my part... history wasn't your favorite subject was it? All of the great societies prior to us didn't just farm out their defense, but they might as well had. They didn't have airplanes to crash into buildings with, but they did have wooden horses. So who do we need to defend ourselves from?? The short answer is ourselves...

Boeing walked away from the tanker dispute, as the Air Farce decided they wanted a bigger plane after all. They wanted Boeing to complete the new RFP before Boeing felt they could properly run the numbers on the now "supersize me" plane. The Pentagon then shelved the project, until the new administration can provide direction.

McDonnell Douglas did not fold up shop because they lost a few military contracts either. At one point and time they were THE leading military contractor. However, no areospace company can survive being a one trick pony. With Boeing being the number one airplane maker and Airbus coming on strong, the fear of being squeezed out of the commercial air frame market (like Lockeed) was very real. So instead of fighting them, they joined them in the name of Boeing. With India and China now climbing on board the aerospace train, it would not surprise me if EADs and Boeing don't merge in the future.

Merry Christmas!

[Speedball]

Coytee,

The inline 4 is a smooth quiet and dependable, we bought our 03' used and now has about 125k on it and it runs like a sewing machine. I'm hoping to go another 100K miles. A 55 mph kickdown and it will be running 80 in no time, that is where the powerband seems to be. It really reminds me a lot of a Lexus 400 I used to own.

edited my typo....[]

[darkside]

100,000 mph is pretty fast....

Although I'm biased towards American cars, it cannot be denied that Japanese cars are pretty good themselves. However, it bothers me when people like Jay are ignorant to the fact that American cars are just as good as any foreign competitors and have been for sometime, if not better. Without a doubt, they didn't used to be, but most people are ignorant to that, which is why the Big 3 can't sell a car to begin with, but I digress. I am a firm believer in the quality of American cars. We had a 1997 GMC Savana van (conversion van) that we got rid of earlier this year. Had 183,000 miles on it, which might not seem like much, but when you consider that about at least twenty-five to thirty THOUSAND of those miles were on dirt roads (NOT what it was built for) because we took it camping all the time and the fact that it never stranded us once, you cannot deny the quality or reliability.

[Jay481985]

re: Also what do we need to defend ourselves from?

Maybe, I read more into your comment than what was there. So this is just an assumption on my part... history wasn't your favorite subject was it? All of the great societies prior to us didn't just farm out their defense, but they might as well had. They didn't have airplanes to crash into buildings with, but they did have wooden horses. So who do we need to defend ourselves from?? The short answer is ourselves...

Sure History is a favorite subject of mine. Airplanes crashing into buildings are completely different from the trojans. Atleast they were from reconized state.

Boeing walked away from the tanker dispute, as the Air Farce decided they wanted a bigger plane after all. They wanted Boeing to complete the new RFP before Boeing felt they could properly run the numbers on the now "supersize me" plane. The Pentagon then shelved the project, until the new administration can provide direction.

McDonnell Douglas did not fold up shop because they lost a few military contracts either. At one point and time they were THE leading military contractor. However, no areospace company can survive being a one trick pony. With Boeing being the number one airplane maker and Airbus coming on strong, the fear of being squeezed out of the commercial air frame market (like Lockeed) was very real. So instead of fighting them, they joined them in the name of Boeing. With India and China now climbing on board the aerospace train, it would not surprise me if EADs and Boeing don't merge in the future.

If I am not mistaken airbus is the leading airplane manufacturer and Boeing is very close. But the thing is it is whom you ask since the a380 had major delays while the 787 also has delays not as bad though. Again its whom you ask is the leader.

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas to you too

[Jay481985]

100,000 mph is pretty fast....

Although I'm biased towards American cars, it cannot be denied that Japanese cars are pretty good themselves. However, it bothers me when people like Jay are ignorant to the fact that American cars are just as good as any foreign competitors and have been for sometime, if not better. Without a doubt, they didn't used to be, but most people are ignorant to that, which is why the Big 3 can't sell a car to begin with, but I digress. I am a firm believer in the quality of American cars. We had a 1997 GMC Savana van (conversion van) that we got rid of earlier this year. Had 183,000 miles on it, which might not seem like much, but when you consider that about at least twenty-five to thirty THOUSAND of those miles were on dirt roads (NOT what it was built for) because we took it camping all the time and the fact that it never stranded us once, you cannot deny the quality or reliability.

I remember when I was little (I was born 1985) so around 1989 - 93, my father owned atleast 5 different american cars. If I remember they were a chrysler a buick another buick and such. He finally got fed up with them not starting, using loads of gas, etc that he brought a honda accord. It had 250,000 miles before a suspension strut gave out and my dad said its time to get a new car. When you say you cannot deny Japanese cars are pretty good themselves, that means that you place american better. It annoys me that you assumed all japanese cars are ricers like you said before.

Well I have an Acura TSX, in that price range there is no comparable american car that can really compete with it. I remember bringing it to service and there was a Mercedes Dealer next door, walked in and the guy said over at the Acura dealer? He said so which one, I said the TSX, and he said has better fit and finish then the C class I was eyeing at.

And again I said there are really only two american cars I was interested in. One just because its a corvette in a sedan body, the other was orignally conceived in Ford Europe, which is a profitable company. I even was sticking up for American car companies, when someone who lived here for about 10 years but before lived in Croatia asked me a simple question. Name me five current American cars that a good. I said Cadillac cts- v which he said was a corvette in a cts body which is true. And I said the Ford Fusion which he shot down as european. Then I blanked out.....

I also find it ironic that one member said that foreign companies bring their workshop here and bring their profits back to Japan. Yet we have been exploiting the rest of the world doing that for almost a century now. I also find it hippocritical that NAFTA was backed by the big three to make their cars in Mexico and Canada now and still be able to call their cars "build in North America" since it still has the America in the name, most people assume their car was built in America. So while foreign car companies like Toyota build in Tennesse, Honda in Ohio, BMW in South Carolina; GM and Ford and Chrysler proudly build in Canada and Mexico. Screw that.

[bhenry]

Jay,

When was the last time you actually DROVE a US car? I really do think that you'd be surprised at how far they have come. I just hate to hear and see people not even giving them a chance and just taking other people's word for it.

I must put alot of the blame on the media, too. I think they have given US cars bad reviews for some time now. I personally have driven Ford products my whole life and have NEVER been stranded on the side of the road.

The Fusion is a great car and Ford has the hybrid Fusion coming out early next year that gets 40+ miles per gallon that beats the Camry.

[bhenry]

Rockets,

I think we are the minority. I wonder how many people notice how China's economy is going crazy (because they PRODUCE things to sell) and how our economy is failing (because we don't PRODUCE much anymore).

Why did other countries begin manufacturing automobiles? You know, the industry that WE (the Americans) started over 100 years ago? Because there is a ton of money to be made in it.

If more people would at least TRY to but American products (it's getting very difficult these days), we might get back on track. We would only be helping ourselves.

Ford has a stake of Mazda (at least they used to, it changes everyday), which the Fusion is based on their platform. I understand that you can't buy a COMPLETELY US made car anymore, but at least if the parent company is a US company then the profits go back into our economy.

We had a Freestyle and just LOVED that car. It drove really nice, got good gas mileage, and had tons of room. Plus, it was built really well, I would recommend that car to anyone. I hope you enjoy yours. I currently drive an F150 (my 3rd one) and couldn't be happier. I do actually need a truck for work.

[Jay481985]

Jay,

When was the last time you actually DROVE a US car? I really do think that you'd be surprised at how far they have come. I just hate to hear and see people not even giving them a chance and just taking other people's word for it.

I must put alot of the blame on the media, too. I think they have given US cars bad reviews for some time now. I personally have driven Ford products my whole life and have NEVER been stranded on the side of the road.

The Fusion is a great car and Ford has the hybrid Fusion coming out early next year that gets 40+ miles per gallon that beats the Camry.

i remember the ford tarus around 2003 when my mother got into an accident. It was okay though it was a boat (well it is epa large) but the needly moved more than I liked while driving.

Again the ford fusion was Ford Europe designed car that was brought to the US

Also I driven my friend's SUV's the ford explorer and cherokee. Everytime they ask me to drive, I say no. Just too tall, I feel like a bus driver when i drive that.

[Jay481985]

Rockets,

I think we are the minority. I wonder how many people notice how China's economy is going crazy (because they PRODUCE things to sell) and how our economy is failing (because we don't PRODUCE much anymore).

Notice how China's economy is faltering right now and how everyone is craming for American dollars in the world when everyone one said the Euro is the new big thing? Well the euro is now 1.2 to the dollar when the height was 1.6. Thats a big drop. China also has to close many production plants because we stopped buying this christmas. There are laid off Chinese workers that blame us solely for their job loss because they were manufacturing toys to goto America only.

Why did other countries begin manufacturing automobiles? You know, the industry that WE (the Americans) started over 100 years ago? Because there is a ton of money to be made in it.

The first car was a Daimlier or a Otto Benz, they frought who made the first car so they decided to merge and make Mercedes Benz. There was tons of money to be made from it, now there is competition which helps the consumer out not the companies.

If more people would at least TRY to but American products (it's getting very difficult these days), we might get back on track. We would only be helping ourselves.

The law of economics dictates that whomever can build a product better and cheaper wins. American products are neither better playing catch up and cheaper (well maybe after the red tag event and dealer rebates) Then again those looking to get those never do because their credit sucks.

Ford has a stake of Mazda (at least they used to, it changes everyday), which the Fusion is based on their platform. I understand that you can't buy a COMPLETELY US made car anymore, but at least if the parent company is a US company then the profits go back into our economy.

from wikipedia

The North American Ford Fusion (code name CD338) is a mid-size car produced by the Ford Motor Company since the 2006 model year.

The Fusion is manufactured at Ford's Hermosillo Stamping & Assembly plant in Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico, where the similar Mercury Milan and Lincoln MKZ are also built. All three cars are based on the same platform and were launched simultaneously into the market (the MKZ as the Zephyr).

Production on the first Fusions began on August 1, 2005. The Fusion replaced the Mondeo for the Latin American markets—except in Argentina (where the current European Mondeo is available) and in the United States and Canada (where it superseded the mid-size Taurus, which was being phased out). It is similar in size to its most direct competitors, the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, and Hyundai Sonata. By United States Environmental Protection Agency^[1] the Fusion is positioned between the compact Ford Focus and full-size Ford Taurus (formerly Five Hundred). size category,

We had a Freestyle and just LOVED that car. It drove really nice, got good gas mileage, and had tons of room. Plus, it was built really well, I would recommend that car to anyone. I hope you enjoy yours. I currently drive an F150 (my 3rd one) and couldn't be happier. I do actually need a truck for work.

Atleast you need your truck, I know too many people who don't need a pickup truck and drive it empty by themselves all the time, the kicker is when they complain about gas mileage.

I have a question about what denotes an american car to you? If the sticker says ford but also say primarily built in Mexico, is that truly american or is Honda that says primarily built in Ohio truly american?

[Rockets]

Bhenry, I hear you. It's almost in vogue not to drive an American 'brand' car. Problem is the automakers did to themselves many years ago, with poor quality and arrogant mentality. Once the brand loyalty, and more importantly public trust was lost, they obviously began to suffer. . It takes a LONNNNNg time to recover. Remember the Tylenol scare years ago? Many companies never recover and go out of business. STILL, we as a Country need them, or so I think

I hear over and over again that the US cars are more expensive than the imports. One of the many reasons why is because virtually none of the imports ahve any retiree benefits they need to cover. NONE! Whereas GM has three retirees for evey one worker bee. So, what do you do strip the retirees of their benefits and put them instead on Federal assistance? Anyone want to give up their retirement? Another thing is when an import company sells twice as many units as you, his fixed overhead costs, are now only half of the competitions.

I feel for the poor Chinese. Why I'll bet even with their factory closeures, our trade deficit is still probably 10:1 with China as a whole. ( Okay, ya got me...it's something less than 10:1 but greather than 1:1) We could compete with them too, if we all made a nickle an hour. Anyone here want to do that?

Who makes the most American car? It's probably a tie. NO one makes all of their compnents. Most import many of their parts and only assemble the vehicles here. Yeah, I know Dodge bought into NAFTA and assembles south of the border. All in all I'd have to give the tie breaker to the Big Three because they do both employee American's and the profits come home too.

Okay, I'm done. I've hijacked this tread long enough. When we are all out of jobs, at least the lawyers and Chinese will still have one...

[bhenry]

The definition of an American car is difficult these days. I would have to say at the very least (in my opinion) that the company that builds the car be an American company. I know where the Fusion is made. I know that the Saab SUV (9/3, i think) is actually GMC (or Chevrolet).

If someone were to buy a Volvo, at least the money goes into Ford's pocket. Same with Saab for GM. The profits from these sales goes back into the US economy- helping us in the long run.

You are correct on the first cars being the Benz, I didn't make the specific point about the manufacturing process (the assembly line) being an American invention which made the automobile more affordable and accessible. I apoligize.

I take the "Buy American" thing probably more seriously than most I suppose. I buy American made clothing when I can (it is available if you look hard enough) and I actually look at the "Made In Vietnam" label on the item before I put it back on the shelf and then complain about for the next few minutes, much to my wife's chagrin. I actually got my wife a "purse" and I also got my puppy a collar for Christmas that was made right here in America by a company named Filson. They make great stuff, not all here, but some.

Both my father and my wife's father are retired from Ford (who, by the way did NOT take a government loan if anyone cares!) and I do alot of work in the car plants and for the Detriot Auto Show, so I do tend to get on a soap box when this topic pops up.

Happy Holidays to everyone.

FYI: The US made Filson bag was a lot cheaper than the China made Coach.

[bhenry]

You got that right, Rockets.

I wonder how long it will take for the Chinese workers to say, "Hey, I want to retire some day". Oh, wait I forgot, they are not allowed to think for themselves. Yet another reason to NOT buy their products. We pay more for a pair of pants that they made then they make in a month. Their working conditions are horrible and they are treated like garbage, but as long as we get whatever we want AND CHEAP, who cares?

To that point, I bought a pair of New Balance shoes that were made in USA. They had the same pair made in China, they were just different colors. SAME PRICE. How come the pair made in China weren't less expensive?

[Jay481985]

Okay, I understand where you are coming from. But here is one thing I doubt many americans realize. I goto college and the bathrooms are cleaned by janitorial staff. Most are hispanic by my best guess. Then there is a question or backlash of "undocumented" workers that steal all the jobs. But here is my question, those jobs are not taken by any "white anglo saxon" because they do not want to demean themselves. Yet at the same time the janitorial staff's children will get a near free ride to a presitigious state college because their mother sacrificed for them. BTW the janitorial staff are all legally in america as they are asked many forms of documents for the state job. If everyone complains that people are losing jobs or there are no jobs, that is a lie. Yes there are jobs but then again look at the way we live. My generation surely does not want to work in a factory and do the things our parents did and sacrificed for. They all want to be managerial white collar workers. Too bad everyone cannot be. Its a reality that we have to face. America cannot sustain factory jobs like we did in the past because well no one wants to work that way and no one wants to make minimum or below minimum wage.

[T2K]

I remember now how stoopid I was when I was 20.

[Jay481985]

I remember now how stoopid I was when I was 20.

Is that a nice way of saying you did not go to college? I guess so.

[Jay481985]

You got that right, Rockets.

I wonder how long it will take for the Chinese workers to say, "Hey, I want to retire some day". Oh, wait I forgot, they are not allowed to think for themselves. Yet another reason to NOT buy their products. We pay more for a pair of pants that they made then they make in a month. Their working conditions are horrible and they are treated like garbage, but as long as we get whatever we want AND CHEAP, who cares?

To that point, I bought a pair of New Balance shoes that were made in USA. They had the same pair made in China, they were just different colors. SAME PRICE. How come the pair made in China weren't less expensive?

Because the greedy american owner wanted it at that price.

Also chairman Mao would roll over his grave if he knew what China is, it is not true communism or what Mao envisioned at any form, its further away from communism then some socialistic countries in Europe. Also don't bring that crap about workers conditions and treated like garbage, we all know that and choose still to buy it at the end of the day.

[Rockets]

I try to buy American when and where I can. I bought a Little Giant ladder, made here in the USA. I could have spent a lot less and bought a Chinese sweat shop made knock off, but I couldn't do it. However, sometimes there just is no feasible alternative, and it's HARD as hell to find items made here anymore. I'd like to have an American made audio amp. I bought Harman Kardon. It used to be made here in the States, but no more. Frankly I can't afford, or maybe justify... spending three times as much on some of the really high end amps that are made here. I know, I'm a hypocrite. <sigh> We all have our limits and budgets.

Bankers?? You mean the same SOB's that took the bail out, but won't disclose how they spent it on bonuses and "retreats"?? Nothing wrong with that. They got theirs...I hope there's a specal place in hell for them too.

Most people don't get it. They see no harm in buying cheaper foreign goods. Clothing is just yet another example. Our mills are closing. Who just exactly is going to make the uniforms for our troops? It would not surprise me if they are already being made in China. What happens when China is no longer our friend? You know it's the smallest little detail that's going to kill us. That Achilles heel. Don't get me started on food from them........They don't have to nuke us, all they need to do is FEED us.

As far as the illegal immigrants. I really could care less. They're coming here for a reason...someone is hiring them...no jobs, no illegals. pretty simple actually. Who's going to pick your cotton? You?? I know one group of Americans that won't now matter what the pay. Issue the illegals cards, tax them like everyone else and be done with it. It's a losing battle otherwise.

I know one thing that won't work and that's that damn fence. They figured out how to breach those things in the middle ages. It's called a ladder. A tunnnel will work too.

What it boils down to is National Sovereignty...and we are rapidly losing ours.

[Jay481985]

I try to buy American when and where I can. I bought a Little Giant ladder, made here in the USA. I could have spent a lot less and bought a Chinese sweat shop made knock off, but I couldn't do it. However, sometimes there just is no feasible alternative, and it's HARD as hell to find items made here anymore. I'd like to have an American made audio amp. I bought Harman Kardon. It used to be made here in the States, but no more. Frankly I can't afford, or maybe justify... spending three times as much on some of the really high end amps that are made here. I know, I'm a hypocrite. <sigh> We all have our limits and budgets.

Bankers?? You mean the same SOB's that took the bail out, but won't disclose how they spent it on bonuses and "retreats"?? Nothing wrong with that. They got theirs...I hope there's a specal place in hell for them too.

Most people don't get it. They see no harm in buying cheaper foreign goods. Clothing is just yet another example. Our mills are closing. Who just exactly is going to make the uniforms for our troops? It would not surprise me if they are already being made in China. What happens when China is no longer our friend? You know it's the smallest little detail that's going to kill us. That Achilles heel. Don't get me started on food from them........They don't have to nuke us, all they need to do is FEED us.

As far as the illegal immigrants. I really could care less. They're coming here for a reason...someone is hiring them...no jobs, no illegals. pretty simple actually. Who's going to pick your cotton? You?? I know one group of Americans that won't now matter what the pay. Issue the illegals cards, tax them like everyone else and be done with it. It's a losing battle otherwise.

a machine? I wouldn't say pick cotton since that has deeper connotations, say strawberries.

I know one thing that won't work and that's that *** fence. They figured out how to breach those things in the middle ages. It's called a ladder. A tunnnel will work too.

What it boils down to is National Sovereignty...and we are rapidly losing ours.

Here's the thing in a global market in which goods produced goto the place where the items can be made the cheapest and best are the rule of law. Americas can make the items yet at the same time it will cost more then we are willing to spend to make the item, pay the workers, and buy it for. What does that make? Hyper inflation. Think your dollar cannot buy much now? Next time you goto your grocery store, check where your fruits are coming from. Right now in the winter, we get half of them from brazil, chile, and austrailia. Why? because it is summer over there and its cheaper to get it from there then store it in complete vacuums.

Second, with China. I do not see why everyone is always soo afraid of china. They will not goto war with us. Their economy is directly tied to ours, hell they own most of our debt. If we goto war, we have NO obligation to ever pay them back then. Then what will happen to china, oh the fact that they will have no money. Also as we see right now, the chinese factories are shutting down because of our recession. If America were to blockage Chinese goods, they would go bankrupt overnight, but on the flip side the American economy would be detrimentally hurt. That is why both sides will do nothing.

As for war, there are many other theories that would say no to that. One theory holds that if both states are too economically dependent on each other they will not do war as war is not efficent and provides really nothing at the end of the day. Look at Germany and Japan after WWII, it took them less than 30 years to return to their former economic glory, unless you want China to become the 51th state of America and give 1.4 billion Chinese voting rights?!? huh didn't think so. Also a funny note, China has many many obstacles and they cannot sustain their growth. One major major problem is the fact that projected 2025 China will not longer have any clean drinking water. They would have to import their water or reroute drinking water from the top of the Himalayas. Number two, the fact that their middle class is doing so well, well does the same as in America, no one wants to work those factories.

And finally Chinese merchandize is built as cheaply and as poorly as the manufacturer wants it to. It wasn't long ago when Japanese quality was balked at and laughed at then they became superior to American products, same for Korean products, Chinese can built quality items but they are also told not to since well companies have a specific price and quality target they want.

National Sovereignty, does not work in a globalized world. The most Americans have to national sovereignty is the United States Passport.

[Jay481985]

Also don't bring that crap about workers conditions and treated like garbage, we all know that and choose still to buy it at the end of the day.

Well, not everybody does.

unfortunately more people do then do not, everyone that shops at walmart is guilty of this, so am I.

[Rockets]

National Sovereignty, does not work in a globalized world. The most Americans have to national sovereignty is the United States Passport.

Then we are truly lost. God help us.